Talk:Pictures for Sad Children/Archives/2022/March

Okay, let's look at this again

Hi. Here to restart the name debate. I'd like to quickly review the arguments that have been made against changing the name.

A WP:VNT argument has been made to the effect that the majority of sources use 'he' pronouns. There are important points in WP:VNT as it stands, such as:

• Most sources do not state their opinions as opinions, but as facts.
• Reliable sources may be outdated, or disputed by other sources.
• Reliable sources may express speculation ... In these cases, criteria other than those described in our policy on sources are necessary.

It seems there is good reason to believe that the reliable sources being cited are stating their opinions or speculation, and should not be used as references for facts; and that they are, in any case, outdated. Indeed, MOS:GENDERID says, "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources."

I don't think there are grounds for a WP:IAR argument here.

Using PFSC itself was dismissed on the grounds that the new registrant of the website may not be Campbell. While I understand why this is being asserted, I think we are fighting shadows here; I don't think there is reasonable doubt that the new registrant is not Campbell, per WP:ABOUTSELF. The assumption that Campbell does not use feminine pronouns requires significantly less parsimonious hypotheticals than the assumption that she does. Effectively, at this point there would have to be a sizeable conspiracy to manufacture reliable sources by many different people over the course of four years. With respect, if we do that then I believe we may be on the verge of WP:ABF.

Consistent with what has already been said, I advocate remembering that WP:BLP as it stands includes the text, "the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment." I can assure you that, in this case, 'she' would be less harmful than 'they' even if it turns out to be incorrect; third-gendering (refusing to use gendered pronouns to refer to binary trans people even when they are demonstrably appropriate) is becoming culturally established as a form of transphobic aggression. (I can source this if necessary.)

@Dane: et al. (but pinging you individually because you were the last person to revert the changes), I strongly advocate for changing the pronouns here. ThirdEchelon (talk) 10:27, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything new to review or discuss here unless you have found a newer reliable source, as Bearcat stated above, we don't have that. Maplestrip also agreed that there wasn't a reliable source. Given the state of the website and it's content in the transitions, I think there is reasonable doubt that it is not controlled by the same person or may not be. I still firmly support the article using gender neutral terms and making the notation about the authors gender identity being unclear. Regarding WP:BLP, I stand by my original takes above on this. -- Dane ^talk 22:21, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

I am very strongly in favor of all types of self-identification and definitely want the gendered language to match that of the actual Campbell. The three accounts that were created in a row years ago were simply incredibly suspicious. It is incredibly difficult to determine whether someone is actually Campbell, sadly. We do not know if Campbell is a man, a woman, or non-binary. All we know for sure is that they were unsure or unclear about their gender themselves back in the day. Using feminine pronouns may be misgendering and Campbell seems to have no way to contact us about it. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 14:44, 15 September 2020 (UTC)