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Talk:Palestine Liberation Organization

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edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Palestine Liberation Organization:

Rectify the PLO page with the PLO EC page. The PLO page says 15 people are elected to the PLO EC. The PLO EC page says 18 people.

In the Palestine Liberation Organization article, an author named Smith is quoted twice. Can you tell me the author's full name and the work cited?

Thanks and regards,

Richard Herman

Probably this work by Charles D. Smith: http://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Arab-Israeli-Conflict-Charles-Smith/dp/0312404085. Supercarpenter (talk) 23:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Priority 2



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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 December 2017Edit

The article "Legal actions against the PLO" indirectly refers to Leon Klinghoffer who was murdered October 8, 1985. It refers readers to Klinghoffer as a footnote, stating "Further information: Leon Klinghoffer and Sokolow et al v. Palestine Liberation Organization et al". Klinghoffer was a Jewish-American killed and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by members of the PLO by describing them as "Palestineans". The PLO hijacked the cruise ship Achille Lauro while she was underway in the Mediterranean, which led up to the murder.

This event also belongs in the "Early actions" along with the murders of civilians, including school children, which were cited. These "actions", for a large part, were not military in nature, they were terrorist actions visited upon non combatants. Wikipedia needs to discern this terminology of "military actions" versus "terrorism", regardless of whether committed by the PLO, Iran, Israel, Germany, the British or the USA, or any other country.

Protecting any article from edits does not mean it will be accepted as factual, especially if politics are suspect. Bd64kcmo (talk) 21:02, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

  Not done: Suggestion does not comply with the Core Content Policies. Please establish for making this change before using the edit request template. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:54, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 January 2018Edit

"targeted Israeli civilians"? 47.145.177.119 (talk) 06:25, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Not done. It is unclear which change to the article is requested and for which reason. WarKosign 08:24, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Lead is a travestyEdit

I'm sure you can find sources stating the IDF's mission is to protect Israeli supremacy over Arabs through violence against civilians, but any attempt at writing that, and at the lead no less, would be reverted, and rightly so, as inflamatory. There's no excuse for this over-the-top intro - nothing as hyperbolic would be said about any mainstream party in Israel or in Western countries. And God knows Israel and the West have no dearth of mainstream parties which have advocated violence and wars against oversees populations or marginalized people within their own societies.Rafe87 (talk) 20:25, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

If you are so sure you can find sources, go ahead and find them. Look at WP:RS first to understand what is and what isn't considered a source. "God knows" is not considered a source, for instance. WarKosign 07:39, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
The current lead if at all casts "violence against Israeli civilians" in a much too favorable light - as it ignores that the vast majority of sources consider attacks such as the Coastal Road massacre as acts of terror and that the PLO has also attacked non-Israeli targets (Jewish and non-Jewish).Icewhiz (talk) 08:07, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
I wonder why you think the lead is favouring the PLO while it mentions 'much of its violence aimed at Israeli civilians' in the very first sentence? Overall, the lead has a US perspective. Bever (talk) 21:08, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Bever, forget about it. The lede ignores completely the fact that the PLO had other civilians branches that were aimed mainly at safeguarding and developing the Palestinian identity (Writers and Journalists Union, Women's Union, Samed economic division, a radio station and several publications such as Filastin al Thawrah and others). The PLO at some point in the 1970s funded the Leipzig Film Festival in East Germany. But hey, there are eight footnotes to this disputed fact that includes very non-authoritative and biased sources (which honestly exposes the fact that this insertion is dodgy). I tried to debate this particular lede, which I think is aimed solely at showing this specific insertion ("against Israeli civilians") when Googling the PLO. See here for example. But all my attempts failed and I was even threatened of being suspended because let's face it, Wikipedia's I/P articles have been taken over by a group of ardent radicals who obviously care more about pushing their narrative than providing a holistic view of an organisation (including its armed struggle/terrorism strategies). This way of working, Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing, is a case in point to explain why students are discouraged from citing Wikipedia as a source. If there's 1% chance a historical article will be aligned with the political agenda of an editor who has 1,000,000 edits on his belt, then it will happen.Abdallasalmi (talk) 10:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Lead very problematic, especially the first sentence, violates WP:NPOVEdit

The lead mostly talks about how other nations portray the PLO's activities rather than explaining what the PLO is. It only says that the "organization founded in 1964 with the purpose of the "liberation of Palestine" through armed struggle", which is very vague. Then it mentions most of it's victims are civilians, which is the case for most organisations/armies engaged in armed conflicts. This is a judgement of value intended to discredit the subject, and while I agree that the civilian/militant casualties ratio should be mentioned, I don't believe it has it's place in the first sentence. The rest of the lead is about changes in how it was classified over time, which doesn't tell us much about what the organisation really is doing, just that it's maybe (or maybe not) a terrorist organisation, depending on who and when you ask.

To fix the lead, it should be made somewhat like the lead of the corresponding Britannica Article Emass100 (talk) 07:36, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

The fact that most victims are civilians is supported by eight reliable sources.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 14:58, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Having 8 sources is excessive sourcing anyway. And I don't disagree with the fact, I just question its place in the lead, giving it WP:UNDUE importance. Emass100 (talk) 22:40, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Hmm, just think about it, inserting something similar in the Israel Defense Forces article... apparently there are no victims of the IDF...if you read the Wikipedia article about it. Huldra (talk) 23:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
The PLO's targeting of civilians (e.g. aircraft hijacking) is quite established.Icewhiz (talk) 05:20, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes, but this is the case for all belligerents engaged in armed conflicts. In fact 90% of all death in wars are civilians. However, not all military groups have a "they primarily kill civilians" sentence in the lead of their article. So let's cut this biased judgement of value in the lead, and make the lead talk about what the organisation is, what are its goals, its strategy, and a resume of their history. Emass100 (talk) 18:47, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
If an organization is described by many good quality sources as targeting civilians, this is how it should be described here. WarKosign 19:45, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Of course, I don't want to censor this, except this is given WP:UNDUE importance if this is put in the lead. Emass100 (talk) 23:14, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Misleading sectionEdit

As at now, 9 Aug 2018, there is a section that says The PLO and its dominating faction Fatah are often contrasted to more religious orientated factions like Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ). All, however, represent a predominant Muslim population. Practically the whole population of the Territories is Muslim, most of them Sunni. Only some 50,000 (ca 1%) of the 4.6 million Palestinians in the occupied Palestinian territories (OPT) are Palestinian Christian. ... etc

It seems to imply that there are hardly any Palestinian Christians. The linked references says the exact opposite thing. There used to be 10% in 1948, until 1967 the conditions were stable. But after Israeli occupation started, conditions became harsher, and more and more Christians emigrated, so that by today, only 1% of the Palestinians remaining are Christian. Palestinian Christians are today mostly in the diaspora.

It does specifically say that it is only referring to Palestinian Christians living in the territories. But the phrasing is so badly constructed, many people would likely jump to the wrong conclusion that 99% of Palestinians are Muslims.

Wish I knew how to fix it.

Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land and the Diaspora. Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, 21 October 2014

Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land. Institute for Middle East Understanding, 17 December 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erqua (talkcontribs)

Christians in Gaza and the West Bank were leaving/assimilating also pre-1967 - and more importantly what is relevant to the PLO is post 1964 (founding), and really only in the post 1967 dynamic. Icewhiz (talk) 07:31, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
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