Talk:Otis Redding/Archive 7

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Edit history note

• At 19:01, 1 August 2011‎ this page started as a copy of an earlier page which is now at Otis Redding/version 1. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:17, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Otis Redding/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jezhotwells (talk · contribs) 03:08, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Disambiguations: one found, unlinked Wayne Jackson as no Wiki article on this musician.[1] Jezhotwells (talk) 03:15, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Linkrot: none found. Jezhotwells (talk) 03:17, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Substantive review will be posted within 24 hours. Jezhotwells (talk) 03:17, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   and he helped to craft the lean and powerful style of R&B POV phrase needs direct attribution - who said that - is it in fact a quote?

   It is not a quote; in [2] and [3] you see similar statements

   I didn't make myself clear. If you wrote "the lean and powerful style" then that is a POV statement an needs removing. If someine else said that, it needs attribution. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

   In 1958 he joined Johnny Jenkins's band, The Pinetoppers, and toured the Southern United States, with Redding as the driver. Umm, the first "the" is presumably Redding so how could he tour with himself as the driver? Needs better phrasing.

   Is it better?

   Did he sing as well as driving, or was he just the driver? Jezhotwells (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

   Redding has been the driver and the singer. One day he drove them to a session. In Sweet Soul Music the same question appears; the author explains Redding worked prior this session already as a musician; many believe he just started as a musician after this session. It was not scheduled that Redding should perform on that session. He performed two songs. Is it now ok?

   Although he was more popular among blacks early in his career, he later became equally popular among whites. very clumsy phrasing.

   I reworded it

   Although more popular among blacks in the early career, he later became equally popular among whites. is equally clumsy

   I reworded it

   Later Stax discovered that Atlantic owned the rights to the entire catalog. So just imagine that i know very little about this. Was that good news or bad news?

   It was good for Stax but not for Atlantic, but Stax had to absorb their loss ;)

   So if you are going to mention it, please explain. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

   I meant it was bad for Stax but good for Atlantic, but Stax had to absorb their loss... Sorry. If you read the section "Posthumous releases" you will understand whether it was good or bad

   Redding won numerous awards posthumously We don't generally use active words about deceased people. Better would be he won many posthumous awards.

   Changed

   No, now it reads: "Redding won many awards posthumously," Take a look at my suggestion above.

   Ok, changed

   His legacy remains solid; Looks POV to me.

   I don't think. His songs were mixed not long ago and his anniversary took place this year.

   "Solid" is a point of view word.

   How about "steady"?

   ''When Redding was three, the family moved to nearby Macon into the Tindall Heights Housing Project, a public housing project for blacks. You could lose the first "Housing Project" like this; "the family moved to Tindall Heights, a public housing project for blacks in nearby Macon." Reads better.

   Agree. Reworded

   Every Sunday he earned US$6 by playing songs for Macon radio station WIBB. "playing" or "singing", or even better "performing."

   Changed

   His backing band was not professional, so attendee Johnny Jenkins offered help. "attendee" attendee what?

   Attendee of this gig

   So please explain. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

   now?

   She gave birth to Reddings son missing possessive apostrophe.

   Added

   Some songs, such as "These Arms of Mine" and "Security", later charted successfully as singles. We a lready had that information two sentences earlier.

   Actually not

   Next, Redding wrote the song, "These Arms of Mine", his first single for Stax then Stewart signed Redding for Stax and released "These Arms of Mine", Jezhotwells (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

   now better?

   I'll tell you what - take this away and get it thoroughly, line-by-line copy-edited and I will review the rest of the prose. You did read WP:WIAGA criterion #1 didn't you. It says "reasonably well written". This is not near that standard, so I am puzzled as to why it was nominated in thais state. GAN ids not a place to fix up articles, it is where they are checked against the criteria.

   I will try to copyedit

   You need to get someone else with good copy-editing skills to do that. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Statements adequately sourced. Spot checks show statements are supported by cites, no evidence of OR

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Sufficient coverage, focussed.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   A couple of queries in the prose section.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Stabel

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   File:OtisReddingStatue.jpg needs a detailed non-free fair use rationale for its use in this article. File:Otis Redding.jpg has a rationale but the image should be reduced in size. There is no justification for having a 600 × 758 resolution image under NFUR. The two sound samples meet the required standards.

   1) now ok? 2) done

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   On hold for seven days for these issues to be addressed. 16:06, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

   OK, this is still not reasonably well written. The nominator has said "I will try to copyedit". As they clearly have introduced many of the writing faults then they need to enlist the help of someone else, someone with good English literacy skills to copy-edit - then address the other points that have been raised above and below and then take it to peer review and when all of the good article criteria have been addressed, consider re-nominating at GAN. Not listed at this time. Jezhotwells (talk) 08:17, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Questions

What is "open-throated singing"? Could you explain, or else provide a link?

Also, it says in the first sentence that he was a talent scout. Does the article explain this more? (I couldn't find it.) MathewTownsend (talk) 23:07, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

To your first question: I did not put this, I will ask what it exactly means. I think it is Falsetto, as the vocal chords don't fully swing, but only its edges; the throat is therewith somewhat "open". To your second question: It is indirectly written he founded Arthur Conley's talent and Redding took him to his concerts, even if he was unsigned at that time.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 10:33, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Agree that both these things need addressing. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Linked Overtone singing.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 20:00, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

That isn't correct, you are just guessing now. Jezhotwells (talk) 08:17, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

• "In mid-1960 he moved to Los Angeles with his sister, Deborah Redding" - without his wife or what? MathewTownsend (talk) 00:58, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

How is it relevant?--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 19:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, it is informational about his personal life and character. When I asked a question about another article, William Phelps why the editor had included the statement about a 16th century sea captain that the was no evidence that the captain has been unfaithful to his wife, the editor answered that historians noted such things and it was important information about personal life and character to be included in a biography. Is this article a biography? MathewTownsend (talk) 20:02, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't know. She was possibly at home, while Redding went to New York to record songs.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 21:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

New York? We were talking about LA above. Perhaps it would help if you thoroughly read all of the sources and then read Wikipedia:Article development and the useful links on writing good prose, etc. at User:Tony1. Then you may be better equipped to attempt to write a good article. Jezhotwells (talk) 08:17, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Self-assessment at B class

I have removed GreatOrangePumpkin's self assessment of this article as B class. There is no evidence that a B class review has been performed and the article is clearly not at that standard yet. Jezhotwells (talk) 14:56, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I endorse the C-class assessment. Binksternet (talk) 16:55, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Please read Template:Grading scheme carefully. Every aspect was met. Everyone can assess articles, as long as they belong to a very active Wikiproject, such as WP:VG or WP:MILHIST. Thanks.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 17:15, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Here you can read the B criteria:

1. The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations where necessary. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited. The use of either tags or citation templates such as {{cite web}} is not required. met
2. The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies. It contains a large proportion of the material necessary for an A-Class article, although some sections may need expansion, and some less important topics may be missing. met
3. The article has a defined structure. Content should be organized into groups of related material, including a lead section and all the sections that can reasonably be included in an article of its kind. met
4. The article is reasonably well-written. The prose contains no major grammatical errors and flows sensibly, but it certainly need not be "brilliant". The Manual of Style need not be followed rigorously. met
5. The article contains supporting materials where appropriate. Illustrations are encouraged, though not required. Diagrams and an infobox etc. should be included where they are relevant and useful to the content. met
6. The article presents its content in an appropriately understandable way. It is written with as broad an audience in mind as possible. Although Wikipedia is more than just a general encyclopedia, the article should not assume unnecessary technical background and technical terms should be explained or avoided where possible. met — Preceding unsigned comment added by GreatOrangePumpkin (talk • contribs)

I do not think that this article is reasonably well-written, which is why I gave it a C-class rating. As you say, anybody is able to assess an article, and Jezhotwells gave it a C-class today. Then you reverted him, and I reverted you after performing my own assessment, and I posted my comment here. You reverted me, so now we are in the middle of edit warring over the rating, with you doing the warring. Binksternet (talk) 17:37, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

You need to give examples of why you believe it does not meet the B criteria instead of reverting the reverting of the assessment. BTW, The article was assessed to B status in 2007: [4]. So you need to convience me it does not meet the B criteria. Regards.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 17:51, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Because it is not reasonnably well writtem, indeed that is why it failed GA. Furthermore, you don't assess your own work. For any grading system to have any worth it must be carried out by third parties. Awarding yourself grades is like sticking un-earned gold stars on your homework book and is basically cheating. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:41, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

You just need to give examples. Is it really so hard? And B-status articles can also fail on GAN, this is not a well-conceived commentar. None of the three Wikiprojects have an assessing department; even on the biggest one it says everyone can assess an article, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Assessment, but if someone disagrees, he should take it to talk page, what I did just recently: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography#Request_for_assessing. Regards.♫GoP♫_T^C_N 21:54, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

The examples you require are in the GAN review, obviously your grasp of English is very poor and you are incapable of understanding them. Why you think you are capable of assessing or reviewing articles on the English Wikipedia beggars belief. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:28, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Again, stop assessing to C-class, as long as you can GIVE examples. Otherwise this is NOT a re-assessment. Before you attack someone, you better review your own prose, Mr. Pitiful. Thanks.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 11:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

So, to conclude: nine days later, it has had a copyedit and been adjudged by a hitherto uninvolved editor as a B class article. (Thanks Zoë). FWIW, I concur with that judgement. Meanwhile there are suggestions below for improvement, including the suggestion that there are important sources entirely missing. Go to it, GOP. --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:06, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Misleading chronology

The group had begun to fly on Redding's Beechcraft H18 to gigs. They flew to Nashville, and on December 9, 1967 appeared on the nationally-syndicated Upbeat television show produced in Cleveland. They played three concerts in two nights at a small club called Leo's Casino.[44][45][37] On the next day they played at the "Factory" nightclub near the University of Wisconsin after the opening act "The Grim Reapers", precursor of Cheap Trick.[46][44]

After a phone call with his wife and children, Redding's next stop was in Madison, Wisconsin. The weather was poor, with heavy rain and fog, and he had been warned to postpone the flight.[47] Four miles from their destination at Truax Field, Fraser radioed for permission to land. Shortly thereafter, the plane crashed into Lake Monona.

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As written it makes it seems like the concert at the "Factory" in Madison WI *preceeded* the flight, but this can't be because the flight was destined for Madison Wisconsin. The flight was obviously from Cleveland to Madison but the article (as written) gives the erroneous impression that the concert at the Factory in Madison WI preceeded the flight TO Madison WI which is obviously nonsensical! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.102.249.9 (talk) 03:31, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Good point IP. Another reason why this article needs serious work before it could be classified as B class. Jezhotwells (talk) 08:27, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

At least an anonymous gives us an example. Done.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 11:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Copy Edit request

I've made a request at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Guild_of_Copy_Editors/Requests#Otis_Redding for this article to be copy edited, in the hope that this solves the current rating war. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:24, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I've signed up to work on this for you. I'll list some issues I find here, as I find them. ❇Zoë Alkaia ❇ 7:31 pm, Today (UTC−5)

• The first is with this sentence: "His father had contracted tuberculosis and was often in the hospital, leaving his mother to provide the primary financial support for the family." This is followed by what Otis did with no mention of what his mother did to make money.

• It's not absolutely necessary to declare the nature of her work. The pertinent fact is that she, not her husband, was the breadwinner. It is of course desirable to know. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:34, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

• I've been advised by a former professor/mentor to always do my best to avoid inserting thoughts into my writing that I don't expand upon. "Don't leave your readers with questions." This was for essays, though; so perhaps irrelevant here. We should definitely add it if it's available, however. ❇Zoë Alkaia ❇ 02:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Jenkins left the band to become the featured artist with The Pinetoppers." When?

• Good question. I don't know the answer, but I will go to library in January and try to find a book which mentions the date

• (borrowed the book from library) That was somewhere in the early 1960s. I think 1962, or 1961. That was shortly before Redding first performed "These Arms of Mine" on a session.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 22:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

• "He was later hired as the new A&R head, replacing Steve Cropper, as the crew thought he would act superior." What is meant by "act superior"?

• He did his job like he would own their business

• "Redding thought it was the best song he ever wrote and would top the charts." How did it eventually do? I see it at the end of the section.
• Based on the contents, I'm thinking the "Legacy" section would be more appropriately titled "Vocal (or Musical) style and legacy" or something like that. It talks about a lot more than his legacy.

If I find more information about his singing style, like his vocal register or vocal range, then I would do that

• In that same section, the paragraph that starts with "Another characteristic was his raw voice" has a lot of quotes from various people several are without citations. Are these all included in the first citation that appears in the paragraph?

• Yes, except the Allmusic quote. Done

• One of the quotes is, "Redding's singing calls to mind a fervent black preacher. Especially in up-tempo numbers, his singing is more than impassioned speech but less than singing with precise pitch." According to WP:MOSQUOTE, we should avoid linking words in quotes when possible. It comes down to how necessary is it to have a link for "pitch" available for our readers. Maybe something to leave for potential discussion at GAC or FAC. Personally, I think it's acceptable, but I did want to point it out.

• Delinked

I'm done. ❇Zoë Alkaia ❇ 03:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your copyedits and comments.--♫GoP♫_T^C_N 15:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I'll add one more:

• "Johnny Jenkins did not come, fearing his reaction would be worse than Zelma Redding's". We don't know what Zelma's reaction was. Actually, Zelma was last seen in the article getting hitched to Otis, but it's not clear if she was with him when he moved to LA with his sister Deborah. The article could do with just slightly more on his family life, I think. --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

The information is available in Sweet Soul Music. Her emotions are described very precisely. From books I read, there was not many information about his family life; maybe because he kept his family life private. What I know is eg that he built a swimming pool, which became the biggest in Macon, and invited many people to a relatively big party. I know that, after his death, his sister still owns a boutique somewhere in Macon, and that his brothers formed a group called "The Reddings". But I'll try to find information about this. Thanks for your copyedits and comment. ♫GoP♫_T^C_N 15:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

How serious?

So I have a monumental interest in early rock and roll, soul, blues, and whatnot and consider Otis Redding on the god tier of musicians. I wrote Roy Orbison's article to meet FA criteria but have not attempted to get it to GA status for my own reasons. I've seen your requests on Malleus' page for copy edits and I declined, now I can't remember why, but probably because I got the impression that you're not serious about the article.

Anyone adding good sourced information to any article, or working to improve it, has my blessing and attaboy to go through with it. Pursuing GA or FA will challenge you--it's supposed to--by forcing you to improve your research and writing. So I'm asking how serious you are about the article. You have over 350 edits to the article, but you're using substandard sources like Songfacts.com. You seem to have some good print sources, but they're GoogleBooks linked, making me think you took what you could from GoogleBooks without reading the paper books in their entirety. Some really nutty sources that would never pass WP:RS: wat? and some newspaper sources that superficially cover topics like race and music when entire chapters and books cover this.

If you are GA serious, get the physical books in front of you at least for as long as you can read them all and make sure you've not missed anything very important that GoogleBooks often likes to keep you from seeing. For a musician as important as Redding, obviously there's a lot of information written about him and if you intend to do him justice in this article, you really should go all the way and read everything you can about Redding, Stax, and early soul music. For your first GA or FA, you should anticipate spending months on the article, not only reading books and working on prose, but taking time away and letting things sit while you think and forget about them. Yes, that sentence doesn't make much sense, but it does after you write a few FAs.

My time is limited and I get distracted frequently, but as I said, I love Redding and he deserves a top notch article. If you are willing to do the work for months and go to libraries and find books and keep reading and working on this, I will do what I can to assist you. It all depends on how far you're willing to go and how much time and effort you are willing to expend on this.

Let me know. --Moni3 (talk) 22:14, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Prose has always been a problem with this article, mentioned in every objective review. I think one person has to take the article under wing and rewrite it. Other issues have been poor sourcing such as not using enough books. How about Zelda Redding's The Definitive Otis Redding and Geoff Brown's Otis Redding: Try a Little Tenderness? They are not represented. Nor is Joel Selvin's San Francisco, the musical history tour, which discusses the writing of the song "Dock of the Bay" along with the San Francisco concerts that Redding gave. The article's section about "Dock of the Bay" starts late in 1967 with polyps then jumps backwards to describe the songwriting, rather than being structured chronologically, starting with Redding playing six nights in August 1967 in San Francisco at a nightclub called Basin Street West (401 Broadway, now a bar), some groupies discovering Redding's lodging, Redding moving to a rented houseboat in Sausalito for privacy, Redding writing the song, then polyp surgery, recording dates, etc.

To emphasize: the single best thing for this article will be to have someone skilled in prose take it over. Binksternet (talk) 00:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Hang on, do we want to do that before the extra books etc. are read and added in? Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your responses. This is incorrect that I only used book excerpts from Gbooks; I additionally borrowed two books from libraries; Icons of R&B and Soul: An Encyclopedia of the Artists Who Revolutionized Rhythm, Volume 1 and Sweet Soul Music: Rhythm and Blues and the Southern Dream of Freedom. I don't know Zelma Redding's The Definite Otis Redding, but if it exists, I believe, it is rather a biography than an educational book. I tried to search it on Amazon, but they suggest zelda bedding rather than "Zelma Redding" =). Sweet Soul Music already covers the most important things in soul music; this article would be half as large as it stands now if I would not borrow it. Icons of R&B was also very helpful, but it is in some places unclear. As for Geoff Brown's Otis Redding: Try a Little Tenderness, a used version will cost less than 5, so it won't be a problem. Joel Selvin's San Francisco, the musical history tour, not sure if it contains useful information (how do you know it discusses what you said, do you own this book?). But thanks again for your help. Regards. ♫GoP♫_T^C_N 14:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

A biography would be good to get the missing early life and personal information. ❇Zoë Alkaia ❇ 15:13, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

My original intention in posting this here was to focus on the sourcing in the article before prose copy edits. Even if the prose reads brilliantly, the article will not pass GA or FAC with the current state of sourcing. For a quick and dirty guide to what this article needs in what order:

• Improve the sourcing: replace the substandard sources with better ones, add appropriate book-length sources (biographies, books about music, the recording industry, race, etc.) and get paper books to ensure no information has been missed from GoogleBooks.
• Begin a series of many copy edits for prose, clarity, style, and formatting.
• Have discussions about images.
• Ask for a peer review.
• Nominate for GA. --Moni3 (talk) 14:28, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Quote from S. Huckaby

I edited the second paragraph uner the heading "Apollo Theater and Otis Blue" to include Huckaby's description of the "big old raggedy" hotel in place of the previous wording ("rundown"), since I don't know of any other source of information about the condition of the hotel in 1963. I did not also insert a citation of the source, because the page numbers in my edition do not seem to match the pages numbers already cited elsewhere in this paragraph of the article. My source is Peter Guralnick, Sweet Soul Music, Back Bay (paperback edition), 1999, p. 143. The other citations of this souce in this paragraph refer to pages 175–179, which seem to correspond to pages 142–145 in my edition. Can anyone reconcile the difference in page numbers?

Also, I altered the spelling of Simms's name according to Guralnick, p. 145 (my edition). My impression is that Guralnick is a careful researcher and trustworthy in such details.

Jwicklatz (talk) 00:54, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Mistaken reference

In the Monterey Pop paragraph is written: "I got to go, y'all, I don't wanna go", said Redding and left the stage of his last major concert.[35] I read the reference and the author of the book confuses the performance in the "Live in Europe" album with the Monterey Pop one. In the Monterey Pop performance of "Try a little tenderness" there is no mention of miniskirt and no "I got to go, y'all, I don't wanna go" but these are in the Live in Europe performance of the song. Listening to both recordings confirms this. Can we delete the sentence? --Paulrudd (talk) 17:19, 25 March 2017 (UTC)