Talk:Omagh bombing/Archives/2007/11

"Massacre" category

This was removed because of concerns over WP:RS, apparently. I'm not sure its actually possible to provide references for a category, is it? In any case, there are dozens of reliable sources easily findable - for instance, [1] here] shows over 500, including Dáil Éireann, the Examiner, the Guardian and Republican sources. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 19:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Wrong, wrong, wrong. It's not recognised as a massacre in the same way that Dunblane massacre and Hungerford massacre are. If you want to add what people have said about it, you attribute it per WP:NPOV. There's a discussion on WP:IWNB where the consensus says it shouldn't be used. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict):After I re-added it just now with an edit summary of 'See talk' it got removed again by ONiH before I'd posted to Talk with a comment including 'This does not get added here'. Excuse me, WP:OWN? I'm familiar with the policies in question quoted by ONiH, this does not seem to be in breach of any of them. Please discuss before editing! Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 20:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

And after reading WP:IWNB - there is no consensus that it shouldn't be used. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 20:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Please discuss before editing! WP:IWNByou have been made aware of it. ---- Domer48 (talk) 20:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes there is, it's a breach of NPOV. It's not generally recognised as a massacre, therefore any opinion would need attributing. You can't do that with categories. And there's certainly no consensus for it to be used on Troubles articles. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the Google Omagh massacre actually supports ONIH's view. Do we call September 11th a massacre? We don't cat 7 July 2005 London bombings as a massacre, a massacre is surely something different, eg the Hungerford massacre. I don't think this is matter of politics but of a bad use of the word massacre. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

See List of massacres. The Omagh bombing was described by various sources as a massacre. - Kittybrewster ☎ 21:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't actually understand NPOV at all do you? Even though it's been explained to you before... Do you see the current lead of the article, where "Northern Ireland's worst single terrorist atrocity" and "appalling act of savagery and evil" are attributed? That's how it's done, not just by including the unattributed "Northern Ireland's worst single terrorist atrocity". You can find several sources to reference any claim you like, that's why you don't see "The earth is flat". There's a vast distinction between opinion and fact, the sooner you learn it the better. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Wikipedia needs to attribute to reliable sources WP:RS. By any reckoning the International Herald Tribune is one such. The reason you don't see "The earth is flat" is because it is in fact roughly round. - Kittybrewster ☎ 22:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Well unfortunately for you, WP:NPOV disagrees with you. If you think that by referencing a single word you can state it as fact I invite you to go to Bloody Sunday (1972) and add the word "murdered" referenced by the coroner of Derry to the lead. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:NAM please. The coroner's opinion is further down the page. - Kittybrewster ☎ 23:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPOV please, which trumps any letters you can come up with. Wikipedia projects have been forcibly closed for failure to comply with NPOV, it's listed as non-negotiable at Foundation level. Congratulations on recognising that the coroner's opinion is an opinion, so why are you intent on stating opinion as fact? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 00:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I did not know I was. Stop personalising things. And if I don't understand WP:RS correctly, your job is to explain with courtesy and patience or back off. Too much WP:OWN here. - Kittybrewster ☎ 11:47, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

UK

We should always locate by country and N.Irel;and miost assuredly is not one. It would be very disruptive for a reader to have to press on the NI link to dfiscover which country this event took place in. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Should we then include Europe and the Northern Hemisphere. Your right though, it's not a country, and neither is the UK a country. What is that term “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.” It's a lot of over categorisation. Therefore, I think Northern Ireland will do. ---- Domer48 (talk) 20:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You might want to check out Scotland and Wales, their seems to be a flaw in the first line on each article. ---- Domer48 (talk) 20:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The UK certainly is a country, and more to the point it is a sovereign nation which Europe and the NH are not, that is why it is the defining location that needs to be included. I am completely baffled as to why someone would oppose bringing clarifying information into the article, please remember we are an international encyclopedia, ie an educational tool) and plenty of people likely to read the article will not know where Northern Ireland is but will know where the UK is. Your allusion to Scotland and Wales has me completely baffled, I can see no flaw. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

"Scotland (Gaelic: Alba; pronounced /ˈalapə/, Scots: Scotland) is a nation in northwest Europe and one of the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom."

"Wales (Welsh: Cymru;[1] pronounced /ˈkəmrɨ/) is one of the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom."

"Northern Ireland (Irish: Tuaisceart Éireann, Ulster Scots: Norlin Airlann) is a constituent country of the United Kingdom..."

Spot the difference? Scotland is a Nation! Wales is a Nation! The UK is not a Nation! The defining location is Northern Ireland. "please remember we are an international encyclopedia, ie an educational tool) and plenty of people likely to read the article will not know where Northern Ireland is but will know where the UK." That sounds like a very strong POV, they will know were the UK is but not Northern Ireland! The article has been stable for long enough without the UK. ---- Domer48 (talk) 21:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Scottish citizenship? Welsh citizenship? These are not sovereign nations by any stretch of the imagination. Actually most people are aware of which the sovereign nations are but not parts of countries (its like everyone has heard of the US but not everyone has heard of Ohio). How you can conclude that that is POV is beyond me21:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

So you could not spot the flaw then? The answer is "four" and I know you will want to sort that since you have said "N.Irel;and miost assuredly is not" a country and "we are an international encyclopedia, ie an educational tool." More people know were the UK is than Northern Ireland? well prove it then.---- Domer48 (talk) 21:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

If we look at our own definition of a Country we see it refers to

a political division of a geographical entity, a sovereign territory, most commonly associated with the notions of state or nation and government

In this case the political entity and sovereign state is the UK, England is really just a football team, as it shares its law with Wales, and it is a country by this definition to which I was referring. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

So you will want to address these glaring inaccuracies then. Citizen, interesting that! The UK is a monarchy; doses that not then make people subjects not citizens? Northern Ireland defines were the incident took place! ---- Domer48 (talk) 22:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I have edited a lot of articles that say "so and so in California (or another US state)." I always add a link to the US because it is the sovereign nation. I think ex-pats are probably more sensitive to this issue than those back home. I just showed my sister-in-law the photo in the article and said it was in Northern Ireland just before a bomb went off, and she replied "Northern Ireland is in England isn't it?" echoing a common mistake here, which is that the UK is actually England and I had to explain that no, it Northern Ireland is in the UK, which is my country. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:32, 16 November 2007 (UTC)