Talk:Non-stop flight

Why not in the list?: (Air India) Delhi - San Francisco

Inaugurated on December 2, 2015. 16 hours 55 minutes.

http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2015/12/07/air-india-inaugurates-nonstop-service-between-san-francisco-and-delhi/

213.65.173.167 (talk) 11:15, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Because it's 7,706 miles long, while the 30th longest flight (we only list the top 30) is 7,793 mi long. Slasher-fun (talk) 16:39, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

May want to be careful with that one. Hearing that Air India has revised the flight path. Instead of going north and then west, the flight is now rerouted to head east to take advantage of the jet stream. Apparently, this route is more fuel efficient, not to mention quicker, while covering the biggest distance.199.198.223.104 (talk) 17:44, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

the India flight is not unusual in using jet streams to trade distance with speed, all flights do it. The table is based on the great circle distance between the two airports. Any other measure would be subject to an impossible verifiability burden as actual flight distances for all flights vary on a daily and seasonal basis. Andrewgprout (talk) 18:16, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

The table is misleading us here. The table measures the shortest distance between the two airports whereas this new route going east takes the longest route. I think we need to accept the reference. Air India really is the longest in distance but not the longest in time. This needs to be sorted because both the B777 and the A350 are now capable of flying near to 180^o apart and the shortest distance will not always be the route taken. This needs reconsideration. Ex nihil ^(talk) 07:06, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Since there is no consistency on the actual distance flown from one day to the other, how would you sort flights then? Slasher-fun (talk) 08:00, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Just have to do the maths I guess, that isn't very convenient but it would be more accurate and tells the true (and interesting) story. We could calculate it by adding two segments where the flight path passes through an intermediate destination or by subtracting the point-to-point distance from a great circle. It's quite a clever trick and as we are going to see more of this as aircraft ranges hit 180^o our point-to-point distance tables won't always work any more. Trouble is, the page is actually called Non-stop flight, not Longest point to point I suppose we could rename the page I think people come here to find the longest flight, not how far apart airports are. I do know somebody who decided to have a pint at his local pub by going the long way around the planet; that did not speed up his getting a drink however and when he finally arrived at the pub several weeks later, it was closed. Ex nihil ^(talk) 08:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Flights and orthodromic/real distance

Hi, For the past months, several users repeatedly added AI 173 DEL-SFO, with a distance that was much longer than the orthodromic distance. Yesterday, @Anshabhi: added again this flight with a distance of 15,142 km, quoting an article that explains that this flight uses a new route longer than the previous one. I revereted this, explaining that we list flights according to their orthodromic (most direct) distance. He/she did revert this again, and left the following message to my talk page:

Sorry, but I don't really think that orthodromic distance was anywhere in question before AI 173. The only thing that matters is the distance that the flight travels, and not the direct distance between 2 cities. Several examples:

1. In record flights, PIA flight should also not be there, as the direct distance was much smaller than 21000 km.
2. For QF-8 the direct distance is 8,024 miles but in the list, it's listed as 8,578 miles which is the route that it takes.
3. Similarly, for all the flights the distance is slightly more than perpendicular distance, but the actual distance that flight takes is considered. In cases of other flights, this is near the perpendicular distance but in case of AI 173, the actual distance is much more (over 15,100 KM or 2400 KM more than direct distance).
(Sorry for sounding a bit rude) but the word orthodromic was not in the article before yesterday, and it should not be there now either.

Therefore, I have reverted your edit. Thanks!

Here was my reply:

Hi Anshabhi

1 There is no PIA flight in the top-30 list
2 QF8 orthodromic distance is 8578 miles (with a link to GCMap that the quotation template won't let me use...)
3 There is no way to determine the exact real distance of a flight, as the flight path changes every day depending on the weather/wind. All flights are currently listed according to their orthodromic distance, I was just expliciting that.

Please acknowledge those facts so that your changes can be reverted. Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions.

Does anyone object this? Slasher-fun (talk) 09:30, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Great-circle distance only should be used. Flight planning, winds, geopolitics can affect the distance flown, and it changes for every flight, it's not even the same the next day, as times planned which change seasonally. Only the location of the origin and destination don't change, and that's the only stable yard. --Marc Lacoste (talk) 09:55, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

But in this case, the flight in flying in opposite direction of great circle route. The great circle route flies over Atlantic, and this one flies over Pacific in reality. This route is probably an exception to what Marc Lacoste says, as using Great circle route will give totally different calculations than the route that it is actually taking. A photo to explain my point: [1] The flight used to take Great Circle route till 13 October 2016. In that case, talking about Great circle route would be sensible. But since 15 October 2016, its flying absolutely opposite to it. The value that I have quoted through a flightradar24 is the distance, if it flies directly over Pacific, which it is doing currently. While this is surely not the exact distance, but it represents the closest posssible value to average distance. Anshabhi (talk) 11:56, 19 October 2016 (UTC) flightradar24 article, which can be found here: [2]Anshabhi (talk) 11:58, 19 October 2016 (UTC) The PIA flight I am talking about, is from record flights " On 9 November 2005 a Pakistan International Airlines Boeing 777-200LR, dubbed the Worldliner, completed the world's longest non-stop passenger flight. It traveled 21,602 kilometres (11,664 nmi) eastward, from Hong Kong to London, in roughly 22 h 22 min, as opposed to a normal westward routing for that sector, which is much shorter at 9,647 kilometres (5,209 nmi).[3" I sincerely apologize for QF-8 point. Anshabhi (talk) 12:12, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

The orthodromic route of AI 173 does not fly over the Atlantic, not even close to it, so before going the current route it wasn't going the orthodromic route either. Again, a flight can fly a certain route one day and a completely different route a week later, so there's no way we can keep track of the average real distance of a flight. Slasher-fun (talk) 12:37, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Here however, we can be sure that it will always fly over Pacific Ocean, as Air India has advertised it as a round the world flight, departing over Pacific and returning over Atlantic. The orthodermic route is only slightly over Atlantic, but that's how everyone is says it! The Air India advertisement: [3] Anshabhi (talk) 12:46, 19 October 2016 (UTC) This same advertisement was carried on front page of all major newspapers in India by Air India on 15 October 2016. Anshabhi (talk) 12:51, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

We can't be sure it will always fly this route that way, have no idea of the average distance, and can't either check the "average distance" for each flight in the world. Of course Air India uses this new route for advertising purpose, but that's not the point of Wikipedia. Slasher-fun (talk) 13:29, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Why do you think Air India is only using it for advertising purpose? There's a reduction of 2 hours in flying time as well. This translates into saving of almost 14,000 liters of ATF for Air India. You can always track it on either flightradar24 or flightaware. Today's flight was even longer than yesterday! Anshabhi (talk) 13:23, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Where did I say "only"? Plus you're getting a bit off-topic here. Slasher-fun (talk) 14:52, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Errr, I am sorry!😉 Anshabhi (talk) 16:14, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

So so far we have Marc Lacoste and I in favor of using the orthodromic distance, and Anshabhi in favor of using another distance. Do we have any other opinion? Slasher-fun (talk) 18:29, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Obviously orthodromic, I don't know how can even remotely advocate anything else. It's the only figure that is a) always the same for each flight and b) comparable to every other flight on the list. Plus, the actual distance flown has no meaning at all in (commercial) aviation. Flight hours and number of cycles matter in operations, orthodromic distance matters economically (RPK/RPM) and scheduled block time matter contractually (passenger-wise). It isn't even possible to accurately log the actual distance flown. That Air India flight in the list is ridiculous. And, on a lighter note, which mileage is Air India's "Flying Returns" going to credit for this flight's passengers? ;-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.153.223 (talk) 20:22, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

So, if you were the AI 173 captain then you would work towards crashing the plane, as only orthodromic distance has significance, and the route that you actually fly is useless and it has no significance? All the calculations like fuel required, wind speed, block time etc. should be done on orthodromic distance, because for (commercial) aviation the actual route flown is useless..?? Please quote a reliable source for your points (thoughts). As far as Flying Returns is concerned, they award fixed flying miles based on the route that you fly, irrespective of the distance that you fly. [4] Anshabhi (talk) 03:38, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

It's instead technological limitations that the actual distance flown can't be measured for. But even then, if you have an error of +-400 miles then too AI 173 is the longe flight. For other flights as well, the actual distance is close to orthodromic distance which makes it suitable to be considered. Anshabhi (talk) 03:41, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

The point is to compare, and for this we need a stable comparison basis. Distances flown varies day from day, the great circle distance is stable. If you were to use the actual route, for a meaningful comparison every flight should use the same. Air India is certainly not the only airline to optimise routes, SIA for example flew SIN-EWR much longer than the direct route. But since it varies day to day, for a good comparison you would choose a timeframe, like a year, and pick the shortest/longest/average. For every airline and every route. It's possible, but I would program a bot. And even then, the still air distance is way shorter ! That's the point of flying with the wind :). Every "longest route" article uses the great circle : usatoday, the telegraph, theguardian, BBC. (Also, please indent your comments) --Marc Lacoste (talk) 05:54, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Alright then! Please edit the article, in the way you feel it would be most appropriate. My suggestion is that, for now AI 173 is the longest flight. Anshabhi (talk) 08:22, 21 October 2016 (UTC) Or probably, I am wrong. I understand that the table is according to Great Circle Distance. I am pulling out of this discussion now! Thank you everyone for your time. And sorry for wasting for your time! 😏👋 Bye! Anshabhi (talk) 08:50, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Don't worry, it's all done in WP:goodfaith ! If you understand it differently, perhaps you can help edit Wikipedia for the best by sharing your enlightments. --Marc Lacoste (talk) 09:05, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm in favour of Great Circle Distance in the table, and in the case of AI 173 (which is a pertinant special case), we sould add a paragraph just before the table.Fleet ch (talk) 07:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree. Otherwise the entire list would have to be redone, as all flights vary from day to day based on winds, AI 173 is just the most extreme.

On Oct 21, AI 173 flew 16,442 km (extra circuitous route due to tailwinds): http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AIC173/history/20161020/2200Z/VIDP/KSFO

On Oct 14, AI 173 flew 13,299 km (direct, no tailwind route): http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AIC173/history/20161013/2100Z/VIDP/KSFO

--173.206.72.39 (talk) 10:08, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi, I think all of us agree that it's justified to mention AI 173 under "Current" column.. Right?

Anshabhi (talk) 12:41, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Yup, makes sense to me. Slasher-fun (talk) 14:08, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

It might make more sense by describing it following those explanations in the "exploitation" section? (Or just mention it again there)C933103 (talk) 12:07, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Great circle distance is purely a theoretical measure and should not be taken as a yardstick for longest flight "length". I agree that it does not change between two airports but please bear in mind that AI 173 *has* covered a much longer distance. Also, I don't agree with certain users saying that in commercial aviation the actual distance flown has no meaning at all. Please elaborate on your statement; can you please quote some reliable sources that categorically mention that it does not matter? By reliable sources, I mean agencies or individuals related to civil aviation and recognized worldwide. Opinions of Wikipedia users (like you and me) don't count. Also, if you think that actual length does not matter, then can we also measure several other "world records" by their theoretical and not actual values? For example, let us take the example mentioned here - http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/29556-longest-motorcycle. It can clearly be seen that the theoretical length of the motorcycle is much smaller than 26.29 metres but the owner managed to increase the length by adding some temporary structure. Guinness acknowledged the record, going by the "actual length", not the theoretical length of the motorcycle. Hence, it would be appropriate if the table is created on the basis of actual distance. I can also see in the edit history that all Air India flights have been removed. I will of course be writing to Honorable Civil Aviation Minister, Government of India to apply for a Guinness World Record for AI 173 as the longest flight in the world. 202.142.121.173 (talk) 17:34, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

A table with the longest reported distance flown could be created but it would only reliably contain one entry, [and that entry would be constantly open to revision) I do not agree that great circle difference is theoretical, it is the absolutely shortest distance that an aircraft can travel to fly the longest route and that is the important feature - all aircraft fly more than that distance but it is impossible to tell by how much on any real usable basis. To that end the Air India media puff piece is just a piece of marketing designed to promote the flight and does so way beyond the reality of the situation. Andrewgprout (talk) 18:00, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello Mr Andrew, first of all it's not a marketing "puff piece". Please be objective and unbiased in your comments. The Air India flight is covering the longest actual distance currently. As I said, please provide reliable sources for your statement that only orthodromic distance matters in a flight and actual distance is meaningless. Strictly going by your statement, we should also apply the orthodromic distance logic to Solar Impulse. Don't you think we should edit that page and enter the orthodromic distance everywhere? The flight path is not varying by a significant margin everyday for AI 173, you can track the path online using flightradar24. We cannot be accounting for world records based on theoretical measures, so we should be treating both AI 173 and Solar Impulse by the same yardstick. I'm very neutral when it comes to disputes. If we have to apply the yardstick of orthodromic distance for flight length, then let us either be guided by a world body or apply the same yardstick everywhere. I can't imagine how much unnecessary editing would have been done on AI 173 already. So let us agree on a clear guideline on what defines flight length - orthodromic distance or actual flight length, purely based on available written knowledge, and not the personal opinions of certain users. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.142.121.145 (talk) 19:13, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree that this record is, besides shortening the flight duration, used for a marketing purpose. There is no "official source" saying that "only orthodromic distance matters": it is what the Wikipedia community has decided so far, because it's the most reliable way to list a flight's length, and because people travel from A to B, two cities separated by a certain distance, they don't travel for a certain actual distance flown. Yes, the flight path varies by a significant margin every day, according to FlightAware November 4th flight was ~2000 km or 13% shorter in actual distance flown than October 30th flight. Should we apply the same rule for Solar Impulse? Whenver it will operate scheduled passenger flights, yes, it will completely make sense. So far, it only operates experimental flights, and does not fit in the "top 30" of this page. Slasher-fun (talk) 19:32, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Great circle distance only is used by reliable sources (see earlier in the discussion : usatoday, the telegraph, theguardian, BBC) The Guiness records was a fun book when I was a kid but for adults it has to be serious. Note that even if the ground route is longer, the Equivalent Still Air Distance really flown is shorter than the GC route, that's the point of using winds.--Marc Lacoste (talk) 20:38, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

1. The AI173 flight depart on IST Nov 13 flied 15344km with its Nov 11 18:45 flight traveled only 12975km.
2. And on the flight tracking site with more comprehensive data, FR24, they don't even bother to show any other distance that are not great circle distance.
3. In term of actual flight path, as recorded on FR24, some of those flights go as north as same altitude as Sapporo to the west of Midway Atoll, but for other flight the northmost point is to the east of Hawaii and only reached the altitude of Sendai, Japan, according to FR24.
4. By the way, great circle distance is not only a theoretical measure, it is the displacement those passengers actually moved away from their departure point on the earth's surface

C933103 (talk) 03:21, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Did you mean to say "latitude"? Captain Quirk (talk) 21:02, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Air India’s Delhi to San Francisco service is not the “world’s longest non-stop route” – just the longest way of getting somewhere: Last September Air India changed the flight from an Atlantic/Polar direction to a less-direct routing over the Pacific for operational reasons.

"Qatar Airways wins anna.aero's "Platinum Planet Prize" for launching the world's longest route: Doha-Auckland". Airline Network News and Analysis. 6 Feb 2017.Marc Lacoste (talk) 14:34, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

SA204

@Marc Lacoste: If SA204 is operated only with 346 not 343 then why the table Non-stop flight#Currently scheduled (top 30, by distance) list 343 for the flight? (I recall reading something about it being seasonal but I don't have any sourceon my hand now) C933103 (talk) 09:45, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

because #Currently scheduled is outdated and WP:WINARS! BTW, thanks for your work on this article. --Marc Lacoste (talk) 09:49, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

I see. Btw, do you know had the SA 208 ever operated non stop by 343? Not sure why I put that down in the first place but that seems unlikely... C933103 (talk) 13:02, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Not in archives and SA advertised an A346 with a Dakar stop in 2009. --Marc Lacoste (talk) 13:43, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

FCO-EZE

There is a unreliable&incomprehensive source that seems to indicate the route were the longest route flown by A332, DC8, and such. Is there any further source for this? C933103 (talk) 17:32, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Which source? --Marc Lacoste (talk) 09:27, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Some random old forum postsC933103 (talk) 12:39, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

can you provide the link --Marc Lacoste (talk) 14:01, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Ugh sorry I forgot which post I saw that C933103 (talk) 13:02, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

ZNZ-PRG

Was the flight done by 738 non-stop and were it scheduled? C933103 (talk) 13:17, 4 December 2016 (UTC)