Talk:Neunzehnerrufen

Information on Unique Game-play and Relevance in Czechoslovakia and West Texas

Neunzehnerrufen is a very common variation of Taroky played in West Texas (such as West Fest [1]) The rules for the game are rather poorly described in this article likely due to a lack of sources and proliferation of variations. The primary sources I found for this variation are MachTarok and Pagat.

I believe this article could be expanded to include the point values of the cards (which are mostly common across variations), the game-play structure (outlined on MachTarok), and the various point cards. It is also possible that a general strategy guide could be added, as well as definitions for certain terms used almost exclusively in Taroky, such as Valat, Flek, Povinnost, Prever, etc. This will be especially useful for English users, who do not know Czech but play the game due to Czech heritage, such as those in West or Ennis Texas.

While I do not know any sources for the Czech play of Taroky, there are a few excellent sources found at pagat.com, namely:

Taroky.net www.taroky.cz http://web.archive.org/web/20010723170332/taroky.web-net.sk/

Unfortunately, these sources are primarily in Czech, which is a language I am unfamiliar with. Coder0987 (talk) 16:34, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

@Coder0987: thank you, that's interesting. Firstly, if you play a Texan version of Neunzehnerrufen, that will almost certainly be of interest to John McLeod. The supplement to his magnum opus (Dummett & McLeod (2009). A History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack: Supplement) describes versions of Tarok played in Texas, but the only current form appears to be a type of Königrufen. It would be great to capture any other current Texan versions of Tarok, including Neunzehnerrufen, but pagat.com is the website for that and John can be contacted there.

Secondly, there are Czech editors here on Wikipedia. For example @FromCzech may be able to help with translations of Czech rules for these fascinating games.

In expanding the article, please add the source you are basing the rules on; this is not just to comply with Wiki protocol, but aids others in knowing which variant they are reading about. Cheers. Bermicourt (talk) 18:59, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

@Bermicourt thank you for the quick and insightful response.

I'll be sure to message John and add my sources to the article.

Unfortunately, there are very few English sources for the Texas variation of Neunzehnerrufen (as you noted, even John didn't find anything)

I do however have one primary source:

https://machtarok.com/learn.html#collapse4B

However, as the owner and operator of machtarok.com, I'm not sure if I ought to be citing my own website. I'm in the process of searching for more structured sources, as most of my knowledge comes from generational tradition and the in-person tournaments at West Fest, among other places. Coder0987 (talk) 21:17, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

@Bermicourt, I found the source you were looking for. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. John McLeod did, in fact, describe the exact variation played in Texas:

19.16 Tarock (Texas, United States, XX century to present day, XIX called for partner)

I believe this is a Texas variation of Neunzehnerrufen, however I may be mistaken as everyone simply calls it "Taroky"

I will be citing this source in the article, however if I am mistaken and this is a separate version of Taroky from Neunzehnerrufen I apologize and will create a new article for this variation Coder0987 (talk) 21:46, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

You're right; you shouldn't really cite your own source. But if the version John describes in the supplement (obtainable free online) or at pagat.com is an accurate description of what you play, you can cite either or both (I haven't compared the two). But if your version differs, then John may publish it at pagat.com and it can be included here, citing pagat.com and your website. Bermicourt (talk) 07:38, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

PS I notice the cards used on the website appear to be a local design which members of the IPCS might be interested in as would the website World of Playing Cards (wopc.co.uk). However, you may also be able to obtain the cards used by Czech players either by shipping as a job lot from Europe (I imagine they either make them in Czechia themselves or import e.g. Hungarian or Austrian cards of the Industrie und Glück type), or by getting hold of an out-of-copyright original and getting facsimiles made locally. The original design dates to the 1850s. They are beautiful cards. HTH. Bermicourt (talk) 07:45, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct. The version John describes in the supplement is very nearly accurate to what is played here. Also, the version on the website is a local design created last year specifically for the website.

The cards are available here: https://github.com/coder0987/Taroky/tree/master/assets/default-deck

As is the copyright info (deck-info.md in that directory)

This local design is actually a family set drawn by my sister and not widely used. We typically use Industrie und Glück cards, especially at tournaments, however we also have a few other variations of cards, such as the Berghuttentarock and Damen Tarock packs, available at http://www.tarock.net/store.htm

Yes, they are indeed beautiful cards. Coder0987 (talk) 12:50, 21 May 2023 (UTC)