Talk:Nelly Furtado/Archive 4

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Archive 5

Latin Grammy Nomination

Nelly Furtado has just been nominated for a Latin Grammy for "Best Female Pop Vocal Album" (Mi Plan). I think this should be included in the awards and nominations list.Manas justice (talk) 15:14, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Agree ..You can add it ...but I would say lets wait to see the out come.....then we dont have to update Latin Grammy Nominees Feature A Few Surprises.Moxy (talk) 15:17, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Date Ordering

WP:MOSDATE says that for articles on subjects related to Canada, we may use either Month-Day-Year or Day-Month-Year. Furthermore, it says that we cannot switch from one to the other without talk page consensus. Does anyone here have a strong reason for changing it from the current format? I just want to prevent edit-warring about something that really doesn't matter much. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Ahhh but it does matter - it may be trivial to you, but it actually does matter to Canadians. We are a seperate country from the US, therefore, should be using Canadian spelling and date format. We use proper date format in all government agencies which is dd/mm/yy. If this is so trivial, why are you making it an issue?? Just respect Canadian culture and norms - Americans demand that of the world with regard to the way they do things, but then they don't respect other cultures, right down to spelling and date format. Canada is a British based culture, making it operate closer to British way vice American. Thanks for your time and respecting my culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SAMK71 (talk • contribs) 12:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Again, as I've said on other pages, our policy is what matters. Per our policy, Canada uses both. While I have not been to Canada, I trust that the consensus of many hundreds of editors that went into making WP:MOSDATE that either order is acceptable in Canada. If you want to argue about that policy, please go to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) and raise the issue there. If you can show that in general that is what "Canadian culture" uses, and you have evidence for that, it should be no problem. Again, all I know is what policy tells me, and that policy says that, basically, you're wrong when you say/imply that all Canadians use Day-Month-Year format. And, finally, just so you understand how this works--I completely prefer the day-month-year format--I wish the U.S. would switch to a format that actually makes sense (much as I'd prefer the U.S. switch to the metric system). But I don't get to dictate the rules--in fact, no one on Wikipedia does. We decide via consensus. Current consensus is that either format is acceptable on Canadian articles, and you cannot change from one to the other without discussing here first. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:06, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Nelly Furtado record sales

I think Mi Plan sold around 1 million records(albums+digital sales), since it was also certified gold in Mexico, Italy, Czech Republic,Germany,Poland, Romania, Russia and Switzerland. 15,000 sales in Brazil. Platinum certification in Puerto Rico and US. Also Loose has sold around 10.5 million albums worlwide, making her total worldwide album sale to 21.5 million records. Total record sale:40 million records worldwide. http://www.universalmusica.com/News/1621Manas justice (talk) 07:27, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

El camino des los suenos

Nelly's new single with Antonio Carmona is called "El camino des los suenos" or "the journey of dreams", a video of this song has also been released. I believe that this should be added to Nelly's singles' list.http://nellyfurtadodaily.com/?p=3206 Manas justice (talk) 06:05, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Nelly Furtado vocals

I believe that there should be a section describing Nelly's vocal range (Ab3-G5 mezzo soprano) and her various vocal styles. The section should also include descriptions about the nasality in her voice.Manas justice (talk) 02:54, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Nelly Furtado page

I think its about time this page got semi-protected.Manas justice (talk) 08:55, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Songwriting.

I think we should create a section by talking about Nelly Furtado's songwriting. She is still heavily involved in the process of composition of his songs and I think it showed in his four albums already out! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arnoldsamyrichy (talk • contribs) 10:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Bias

Nelly Furtado is Portuguese by Portuguese law, see it here: Portuguese_nationality_law#Descent_from_a_Portuguese_parent, because she is ethnically Portuguese and parents were born in Portugal, and blodd line is the main criteria for nationality in Portugal, being born in a place doesnt make you from that place. If she was born in Mars, that didnt make her Martian. As such the article should be tagged as POV. --PedroPVZ (talk) 15:09, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not a bias problem. We don't list ethnicities in the lead. She's born in Canada, lives in Canada ... she's Canadian.—Kww(talk) 16:46, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Friend, that is not only ethnicity it is nationality, can't you read? it is bias. thus reverting.--Pedro (talk) 17:05, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

What bias do you think it is? Pro-Canadian? Anti-Portuguese?—Kww(talk) 18:01, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

It is a Canadian view of the subject, where the soil of birth is considered the most relevant, while in the Portuguese it is the "blood" that most matters for nationality. Portuguese as an ethnicity is a more complex subject. The Portuguese have some diversity and that is even visible. --Pedro (talk) 18:44, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it's kind of the Wikipedia view of the subject, where the description is intended to show the region where the person is active. She doesn't do much in Portugal, does she?—Kww(talk) 19:29, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Then Shakira is American now, because she is active in the US. So if she was active on Mars, she would be Martian! Great... to discover the Little Green Men we just need to send to Mars the "Wikipedia" guys.

Is Nelly more active in Canada or in the US? Actually she comes to Portugal often... But I dont follow the "stars", for me she is a regular person. The issue is "different views on the subject", probably because North America was made by immigrants and settlers in the recent past. Someone born in Portugal, who lives in Portugal, may not be Portuguese, even if from the former Portuguese Empire, which in this case is a bit unfair, and the law was recently changed because of that. Can you see the difference? --Pedro (talk) 10:48, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Certainly I can see the difference. The tag you have placed on the article indicates that it is biased, however: that something about the article is unfair. It's perfectly fair, and consistent with the way we treat everyone. Her Portuguese ancestry is covered in the article, down to the birthplace of her parents and their immigration into Canada. You would have us commit original research by applying our knowledge of Portuguese law to the facts of the case: we aren't permitted to do that. To date, no one has found a reliable source that specifically states Furtado is a Portuguese citizen. Feel free to find one.—Kww(talk) 12:18, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is very influencial online. So much sources relly on it. Especially considering that when someone states she is Portuguese it is reverted and even sources removed. The Law is quite clear and is not OR, I know personally similar cases, also born in Canada and other cases like in Germany, South Africa and the US, etc there are countless cases. Just did a little google search and had this biography made by a known Portuguese weekly, it doesnt state citizenship, but includes an inverterview and the title states "A Portuguese conquering the world", so must be an old interview. [1] The problem is there is the need for more Portuguese editors in wikipedia, for this case, Lawyers? I understand your remarks on the POV tag.

this sentence which is the first paragraph of the whole article:

Nelly Kim Furtado (born December 2, 1978) is a Canadian singer-songwriter, record producer and actress. Furtado grew up in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada.

And the lead paragraphs keep hiding her identity. It is clearly biased to note her "Canadianess". It is POV alright. It just lacks the Canada flags around the sentence! And doesnt state anywhere in the lead of the article (which is most what most people read) her relation with Portugal. If she was a criminal would be treated like that? Maybe she would be covered with Portuguese flags. :) And we are talking about a person that was the led singer for the Euro 2004 and the European MTV music awards were that was held in Portugal. And I dont follow her carrier, but this comes to mind. --Pedro (talk) 20:24, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Nothing hides her identity, and I certainly don't think of Canada as being more or less important than Portugual. Canada is where she lives, works, and was born, so she's listed as "Canadian". Find me a source that says "Nelly Furtado is a Portuguese citizen", and I'll change "Canadian" to "Portuguese". If you can't find such a source, she'll be listed as "Canadian".—Kww(talk) 21:09, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

You two will not resolve this issue as your criteria (place vs ethnicity) creates two different "rules" for the posting. I suggest that "accuracy" should be the rule rather than the one-rule-fits-all approach both of you present. For many bios the ethnicity is irrelevant or obvious, for others the nationality dominates. For Nelly, who effectively stands in two cultures, one by birthplace and residency and the other by blood we need to consider a more accurate presentation. Nelly has chosen to live in Canada, but in her work she has identified her heritage as very important to her. They are therefore equally important and should be clear to the reader. I did not know Nelly until I read this article. My first impression was Canadian and the importance of her Portuguese background was buried. In her case, for the sake of accuracy, the lead line should include both. Perhaps: "Ethnically Portuguese, Furtado grew up in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada." 98.169.93.249 (talk) 12:24, 5 November 2011 (UTC)RoyB

Actually, the problem is that my criteria is in line with Wikipedia guidelines, and PedroPVZ's is not. On Wikipedia, don't you think Wikipedia guideline's should prevail?—Kww(talk) 12:45, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

A guideline is not a rule of law, Kww. Please consider that a guideline requires the person applying the guideline to think how it is best applied. In the context of the article on Nelly, it is clear to me that her ethnicity, to her and therefore to us as readers, plays a role that I interpreted as at least equally important as her Canadian birthplace, perhaps more. In the interest of accuracy (which is also a guideline, yes?) I would interpret the guideline to include the addition of her ethnicity in the lead line in the article. I am an American with no dog in this hunt. I've never even heard her music, I just stumbled on the article after a Google search to find out who she was. So all I bring to you is my impression of the article as presented and from that perspective it is my opinion that the article would be improved by citing her ethnicity in the lead line as it more accurately describes who she is, it puts what follows in a more accurate context, and it orients the reader more accurately for what is to come in the article. Thank you for your efforts in putting it up in the first place, for now I know who Nelly Furtado is, an ethnically Portuguese, singer-songwriter born and raised in Canada. That is the essence I took from the article. 98.169.93.249 (talk) 16:57, 5 November 2011 (UTC)RoyB

True, they aren't rules of law. But would Nelly Furtado be any less famous if she wasn't Portuguese? Probably not. Is she famous for being Portuguese? I don't think so. Ethnicity is pretty much an accident of birth, and only in extremely rare cases is it sufficiently key to someone's notability to be included in the lead. I don't think it is in this case.—Kww(talk) 23:31, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Kww, Given that Nelly's albums, from the first, have included songs in Portuguese, one being the theme for the World Cup, that she began her singing in Portuguese, that she sang for the Cup festivities in Lisbon etc. says to me you are under-valuing the "notability" of her ethnicity. Her music is described as dramatically influenced by her Portuguese heritage by others in the article. The article is on who Nelly IS, not why she is popular. Therefore to NOT put her ethnicity in the lead line, given it's fundamental role in shaping her life, in my opinion weakens the article. Your call. I'm outta here. 98.169.93.249 (talk) 14:11, 6 November 2011 (UTC)RoyB

Pedro - by your statements, one could say that there are no ethnicities in the Americas - as all came from the Eurasian continents. But going back further, your statements can be interpreted as saying "people who live in Portugal are from South Africa - the cradle of humankind. We all have ancestry, as humans are migratory in nature. The real answer to the question what is Furtado is that she is human, she is of Canadian nationality and of Portuguese ancestry. This article is not biased as you have flagged it and it is clear what her lineage is. What does she consider herself? ([User:Chris Williams]) 16:42, 5 Nov November 2011 (UTC-8)

Sorry, that is not comparable. Portugal exists for a thousand years, people evolved here while the country existed and before. Canada is a British creation (like it or not) with input from everywhere throw very recent immigration (which is different from settlers). We all belong to the same universe and we are all humans, and lets not forget also animals, why did you pick Africa? you can go back in time even more, to the first fish that left the sea or the first bacteria or a possible meteorite that brought life from Mars or Venus... The article is one sided, POV all the way, it tried to HYDE facts, and it still hides, Thus a POV tag should be in the article, and not removed. Someone here added a link on an interview that she gave to a big Brazilian tv network where she clearly states: "I'm Canadian but i'm also Portuguese."--Pedro (talk) 14:49, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Nelly Furtado is Portuguese Canadian....the wikipedia article on portuguese canadians states that:-"Portuguese Canadians (Portuguese: luso-canadianos) are both Canadians born with Portuguese descent or citizenship or Portuguese born with Canadian descent or citizenship . According to StatCan, in 2006, there were 410,850 persons of Portuguese descent living in Canada, or 1.3% of the nation's total population."Manas justice (talk) 09:55, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

And as stated above, we don't list people's ethnicity in the lead of an article. We only list citizenship. Furtado does not hold Portuguese citizenship. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:01, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, she may well have Portuguese citizenship. The problem is that no one has ever located a source that actually states it.—Kww(talk) 11:16, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Can't we amend these guidelines or something? Nelly's ethnicity has always been very important to her. The lyrics of her song "Powerless": "Paint my face in your magazines, make it look whiter than it seems, paint me over with your dreams, shove away my ethnicity"....Manas justice (talk) 16:23, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The relevant guideline is WP:MOSBIO. The place to get such a large change would be at WT:MOSBIO. However, I will point out that this is a guideline, which means that there may be times when it is appropriate to override it. The easier way would be to provide demonstrable evidence that her ethnicity is an important part of her life and career. The guideline explicitly allows ethnicity when "it is relevant to the subject's notability." Her song lyrics are not sufficient. If you could produce interviews of her or commentaries in reliable sources that discuss her Portugeuse ethnicity and how it has shaped her life/career, then it could be included solely as an ethnicity (without worrying about the issue of nationality). Note, though, that this has been discussed many times before, and the consensus was always that there wasn't sufficient evidence to override the guideline here. First, provide the needed evidence, then I can show you how to set up a wider discussion (probably an RfC) that would try to determine if consensus has changed. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:31, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok....so in this video, Nelly is supporting Portuguese Fado music and she says, "Everyone with Portuguese roots, should support this mission, including myself"....I know it's not enough, but I think it's a start...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_RzSAo_T_Y&feature=related Manas justice (talk) 09:09, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

In this video, she says, "I'm proud to be Portuguese Canadian"....the interview is in portuguese for the first two minutes, but after that, it's pretty much in english...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yLlyeRj6k4 Manas justice (talk) 09:32, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/PORTUGAL/2001-10/1002774352 A little about how Portuguese music influenced her qwn music.....Manas justice (talk) 08:39, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

This is another article that states portuguese fado music as an influence....http://voices.yahoo.com/article/90269/spotlight-look-nelly-furtado-121860.html What more do you need? Let me know...Manas justice (talk) 08:46, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I think people are confusing two concepts... Canada grants citizenship based on the "ius soli" law principle. Portugal grants citizenship based on "ius sanguinis". This means that the main principle to become a Canadian citizen, is to be born in Canada. On the contrary, the main principle to become a Portuguese citizen, is to have Portuguese parents (just like in most European countries). Therefore, Nelly Furtado is both Canadian and Portuguese by birth. Requests of a so called "proof" of her being a Portuguese citizen are just as absurd as asking for "proof" for her being a Canadian citizen, as she was granted both countries´ nationality after being born from Portuguese parents, in Canada. I truly don´t understand this type of denial, she has dual citizenship, like so many Canadians and Portuguese do... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.79.73.25 (talk) 21:38, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

When it comes to further proof to open the so called "wider discussion" (I don´t even understand where the motive for "discussion" is), please check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_nationality_law . You only need wikipedia to see that she was just as Portuguese as Canadian right at birth. It has absolutely nothing to do with "ethnicity". I think wikipedia should not put any country´s nationality law ahead of other, or having more relevance than other, right? Or do you believe in superior and inferior countries? Portuguese law is one, Canadian law is another, she just happens to have both countries´ nationality by birth. Just as simple as that. I quote from the wikipedia article: "A child born to a Portuguese parent is automatically a Portuguese citizen provided the parent was born in Portugal". Actually before 1981, there were some restrictions if only the mother was Portuguese, but since both her father and mother were and are Portuguese (and born in Portugal), there is absolutely no doubt about it, of any kind. Again, I feel this issue is going through a path that is not compatible with equal respect for all countries and peoples... I don´t want to use stronger words, but this attitude, besides of going against the basic truth, denotes some views that do not please me as a citizen of the World... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.79.73.25 (talk) 22:08, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

There's no confusion, just no sources. She's undeniably Canadian: lives there, works there, born there. Even if she wasn't a citizen, "Canadian" would apply. No one has ever come forth with a source that specifically says "Nelly Furtado is a Portuguese citizen". She probably is, but to get there, we have to perform research and draw a conclusion. We aren't allowed to do that, per WP:OR.—Kww(talk) 22:48, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

You are seeing it all through a perspective of where you are born and live for granting citizenship, when Portuguese law establishes that anyone born from Portuguese parents is automatically Portuguese. Are you saying there is no proof that her parents are Portuguese, and born in Portugal? Because that is the only issue here. Are you denying that? You have to understand that for you to ask for this "proof" of her being Portuguese is just as absurd as for me to ask you for "proof" of her being Canadian, as both countries automatically grant citizenship in different ways. You tell me she was born in Canada, and I obviously will not dispute that she is Canadian, as that is Canadian law. You tell me both her parents are Portuguese and were born in Portugal, and will not dispute her being Portuguese either, as it is Portuguese law. The World goes beyond where one lives, and Canadian law is not the one and only Universal law, as far as I know... Both Portuguese and Canadian laws are equally valid, quite undoubtedly. This is starting to get to a point when it´s no longer a matter of logically reasoning, but of someone wanting "proof" of something that was already automatically proven the day she was born. As far as one understands that different countries have different nationality laws, and that no country is intrinsecally better or superior to other, there´s nothing to argue here... I repeat, "ius soli" is used in most of the Americas, "ius sanguinis" is the mainstream law in most of Europe. She was automatically Canadian and Portuguese at birth, and all you need to be sure of this is read both nationality laws, nothing else. 194.79.73.25 (talk) 13:18, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok, do you know any Portuguese? In this interview to a Brazilian TV, she says "I am Canadian, but also Portuguese". Further ahead she even adds "and my heart and soul are Portuguese". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3n_ZA4r6Do Is this enough for you now? 194.79.73.25 (talk) 13:40, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Repeating myself: you need a direct source specifically stating that Furtado has Portuguese citizenship. Not one that it can be inferred from. Not one that I can reason it from. Not one that makes it likely. One that directly says it. Stop edit-warring this change into the article.—Kww(talk) 13:49, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Repeating myself: she was automatically Portuguese by birth! And by the way, herself saying she is both Canadian and Portuguese is not good enough? What, now even her own word is not valid for you? 194.79.73.25 (talk) 13:57, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

This article states that Nelly Furtado holds Portuguese citizenship (in the biography section)....check it out and let me know..http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/nelly-furtado Manas justice (talk) 17:30, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Manas justice, please put a reference on the wikipedia page to that article and change it back to Portuguese Canadian... We have the Portuguese nationality law, herself saying she´s Portuguese, and now something that "directly says it", as Kww so much found to be necessary. I believe it´s all solved, and in accordance to wikipedia guidelines now. Please proceed so, I don´t want people to keep on accusing me of doing it. I truly don´t understand where this whole attitude of denial came from... 194.79.73.25 (talk) 18:55, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

There's no denial, but a blog powered by last.fm isn't a reliable source. I don't understand why you think that describing her as having Portuguese ancestry and born of Portuguese parents is in some manner a denial of her Portuguese roots.—Kww(talk) 19:09, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Note, by the way, that the source page, http://www.last.fm/music/Nelly+Furtado?ac=Nelly+Furtado, is a wiki page, edited by users.—Kww(talk) 19:11, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Kww, Portuguese law establishes that anyone born from Portuguese parents (being the parents born in Portugal) is automatically a Portuguese citizen. What part of this do you still insist in not accepting? It is not about "roots", nor "ancestry". This should be enough, as it was enough for you to accept the Canadian definition of citizenship. Why do you accept a country´s nationality law as good, but not another country´s? She was automatically Portuguese by birth, and you can check it freely, both on wikipedia and in many other Portuguese law books, if you want. Furthermore, I showed you a link for a video where she, speaking in Portuguese, admits to be both Canadian and Portuguese. I still don´t understand why you keep on calling this a matter of "ethnicity", and why this persistent attitude before something that was automatically granted the day she was born, like with any other Portuguese in her situation, no matter where they are born... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.79.73.25 (talk) 21:14, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Kww, honestly, at this point the only thing lacking is for you to demand Nelly Furtado herself to personally answer to you about this... 194.79.73.25 (talk) 21:27, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

All of the following websites I have just found state she has Portuguese citizenship: http://soundnewfound.wordpress.com/2009/12/08/lily-allen/ http://genevalunch.com/blog/2007/12/02/plainpalais-a-perfect-stage-for-nelly-furtado/ http://www.onlineticketsshop.com/nelly-furtado-tickets But like I said, this is ridiculous, as Portuguese Law established her as a citizen at the time of her birth, I don´t know how many times I have to repeat it... You don´t need to have a proof of her being Canadian, because Canadian law doesn´t go against your personal vision of what citizenship should be, but you need to question with all of your strenght an European concept of citizenship... Why? Don´t you believe in equality among countries? Only "ius soli" is valid for you? All of us Europeans and our citizenship laws don´t matter for anything? It´s not about ancestry, roots, origins, whatever, it´s about different country´s having different citizenship laws, and her being automatically a dual citizen at birth. As simple as that. 194.79.73.25 (talk) 21:44, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I've asked for nothing more than a specific reliable source. You've got wikis. You've got blogs. You've got ticket sellers. None of those is sufficient for a statement in a living person's biography.—Kww(talk) 22:16, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

You continue to constantly ignore the core of the issue here... Have you read anything I wrote about citizenship laws? Or do you deliberately opt to repeatedly ignore what is the only true issue? Why do you just accept without any proof that she is Canadian, but refuse to accept the fact that the Portuguese, and almost all Europeans, are granted automatic citizenship according to the parents´ nationality? 194.79.73.25 (talk) 23:15, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Because her Canadian status isn't an issue. If we had no idea whatsover what her citizenship status was anywhere, I would describe her as "Canadian" simply because she lives and works in Canada, something which isn't in dispute.—Kww(talk) 00:01, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Spirit International Artists is the leading talent buyer & producer for corporate entertainment and private functions. Please note; They work directly with Nelly Furtado's booking agent. This article also states that Nelly Furtado is a Portuguese citizen....http://www.spiritartists.com/nelly-furtado.htmlManas justice (talk) 06:13, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

That's a snapshot of the last.fm Wiki page: http://www.last.fm/music/Nelly+Furtado/+wiki/diff?b=80&a=79 They built their website by copying blurbs from last.fm.—Kww(talk) 10:25, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Her Canadian status is not an issue, because people like us respect every single country´s citizenship laws. Her Portuguese status would also not be an issue if you were to do the same. 194.79.73.25 (talk) 11:24, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

And of course, you know that about Spirit International Artists, and decided it´s not reliable, because...? Don´t you think that if a company who regularly works with Nelly Furtado was lying about her citizenship in her biography, someone in her staff or herself would have noticed and requested correction by now? Doesn´t that seem obvious to you? By law she is Portuguese by birth. I proved that to you. I showed you an interview where she states she is both Portuguese and Canadian. Now, no matter what source one shows you, it´s always a snapshot of something else. Why aren´t the other´s a snapshot of this one? The company is reliable, and they do work directly with Nelly. Wikipedia rules do not require anything else than what already has been shown. You are now going directly against wikipedia´s own rules. 194.79.73.25 (talk) 11:09, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Read up on WP:RS. Actually, I took about 10 minutes searching around on that spiritartists.com source before finding out it was a last.fm snapshot. User-generated sites, such as last.fm, aren't permitted, nor are their mirrors. I'm dealing with this whole issue in good faith. My only concern is adequate sourcing, and despite several passes at this topic, no one comes up with them.—Kww(talk) 11:30, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

By the way, we have a whole noticeboard devoted to this kind of thing: WP:RS/N. Take your sources there, and see if you can get a consensus that they are sufficient for including material in a BLP. I'll abide by consensus.—Kww(talk) 11:32, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Since you are in good faith, and I am a rookie here who barely can move in these circles, I´m sure you can please do that for us? My main points are, in ranking of importance: 1. No extra need for any kind of proof is needed, as Portuguese nationality law granted her automatic citizenship by birth. 2. If matters such as where she lives and works were enough to establish without verification that she is Canadian (which I don´t dispute, but not based on this irrelevant argument, but based on Canadian citizenship law), what about the fact that she confesses to have learned Portuguese before English, started singing in Portuguese before than in English, grew up in a fully Portuguese family, says she only started doing music to please her Portuguese family members who were almost all musicians, and that she speaks Portuguese even nowadays? If one starts using arguments beyond the logic and reasoning of the lawful facts, then all factors should be included. 3. She herself has admitted, at least once, on the referred interview to Brazilian TV Record, that she is both Portuguese and Canadian. 4. Despite if they are reliable or not, there are abundant internet sources stating that she is a Portuguese citizen, at least one of a company who directly works with her. How that company built the text that states it is not relevant, as the company itself is reliable and a partner of Nelly Furtado. Nelly Furtado would have obviously contested such a claim by now, if she didn´t agree with it. Please do show us your good faith then. 194.79.73.25 (talk) 11:49, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

"Good faith" doesn't extend to making arguments I disagree with on other people's behalf.—Kww(talk)

11:58, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, for you it doesn´t. No surprise there. Then, in good faith, can you specifically tell me how to do it? Or your good faith resumes to not doing anything at all to help solving a dispute? (anonymous)

• • That link is quite enough. I don't know where you get the patience to discuss this with someone that is clearly trying as much as he can to keep this article with a gross bias, doesnt matter what you come up with. Even if presented with all data in Kww he wont accept it. And this is not Kww's article or wikipedia is owned by him. As such the article should be changed and that Guardian link is quite enough, the interview to the Brazilian TV is also very clear as is the Portuguese law. In the same way there is even less data stating that she is Canadian in this article, than she is Portuguese. I know Portuguese who where born in Canada that do not hold Canadian citizenship and only the mother was Portuguese and the father was a true Canadian of ancient British decent. And in recent news, about recently Portuguese born in Canada were deported to Portugal recently, unfortunately they weren't famous to be pure-blooded Canadians! Of course they are accepted in Portugal, because they are Portuguese! --Pedro (talk) 12:42, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Pedro, why should a Guardian link to last.fm be any better than any other link to last.fm?—Kww(talk) 20:04, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
      • What's your point? Is data in LastFM added by users? Is that it? If so then, this is other given link is better http://www.spiritartists.com/nelly-furtado.html "Spirit International Artists is the leading talent buyer & producer for corporate entertainment and private functions. Please note; We work directly with Nelly Furtado's booking agent. " --Pedro (talk) 11:56, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Yes, data in LastFM is directly provided by users, and Spirit Artists also copied the material from LastFM.—Kww(talk) 13:06, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
          • Ok Kww!! I see your point and your are right. But how do you know Spirit Artists is also copied from that? This last one has a very important advantage: they work with her booking agent. --Pedro (talk) 14:32, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
            • Check the history around http://www.last.fm/music/Nelly+Furtado/+wiki/diff?b=80&a=79 and you can see the article being built. It wasn't copied from Spirit Artists, so it has to be the other way around.—Kww(talk) 00:26, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
              • Sorry but I don't see your point. You can not conclude anything from that. we should keep to the facts. And even if Spirits Artists retrieved data from LastFM (which we dont know), it validated it. And as I said earlier, they have some type of connections with their booking agent, which validates the source pretty well. Even better than an average newspaper source.-Pedro (talk) 12:59, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
                • That's why the topic was taken to WP:RSN, and the conclusion was that none of these sources was reliable.—Kww(talk) 14:26, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
                  • Cannot find where that is being discussed, and this last source with facts about it should be presented clearly and discussed.--Pedro (talk) 14:56, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
                    • Discussion is now archived at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 119#Nelly Furtado citizenship. You can start a new one if you want.—Kww(talk) 17:28, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
                      • It is a good conversation, and nothing in it states clearly that this source specifically is unreliable or argument against it, in fact very little was talked about sources, and most of the conversation is a continuation of this talk page. You were correct in catching the problem of the LastFM source and nobody else saw. But you kept funneling the conversation and even lost argumentations because of that "the English as a nation argument" and the "nationalism" unpleasant card... I'm afraid that the ethnic issue in wikipedia is mostly due to African-Americans and other similar cases like that, that we all know. this is understandable and I firmly agree with that wiki policy. It is very different from the Portuguese issue in Nelly Furtado's article. --Pedro (talk) 18:53, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
                        • Actually, Pedro, I just gave up arguing with the anonymous editor when he attempted to claim that England isn't a country. It most certainly is a country, just one that happens to be a part of a larger kingdom. It's not a unique situation: I used to live in the Netherlands Antilles, another country that was part of a larger kingdom. You only have to read the first sentence of England for corroboration. In terms of lead sentences in articles, that whole case is so messy that it has its own specific guideline: Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom.—Kww(talk) 02:13, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Pedro, I am really not good with computers, and I am new to commenting in wikipedia, just starting. Could you be so kind to copy paste my last summary of arguments, as well as the proof presented here, and do it yourself? I would very much apreciate it. This has well passed the point of being a matter of opinion, now it´s simply a repetitive denial of the truth, no matter what proof is presented (he ignores the law, goes to the point of not accepting the contents of an article by one the leading reference newspapers of the World, and doesn´t even consider Nelly Furtado´s own statements). All this for reasons hard to understand, but that do not respect the equality between nations, nor the principles behind wikipedia itself, as I have read. 194.79.73.25 (talk) 14:26, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Discussion is at WP:RS/N#Nelly Furtado citizenship. Note that this noticeboard is specifically about source reliability, not about whether other arguments can be made.—Kww(talk) 20:50, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, if the sources are not reliable enough, atleast check the references that I have posted above. All of the articles and videos describe how important Nelly's ethnicity is for her and her music....if they are not enough to describe her as a portuguese canadian, I'll find some more....but someone, atleast give me an answer...Manas justice (talk) 15:49, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

• • Keep the good work. You did a great job! --Pedro (talk) 18:53, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I guess....more sources....http://voices.yahoo.com/spotlight-look-nelly-furtado-121860.html?cat=33 http://www.notablebiographies.com/newsmakers2/2007-Co-Lh/Furtado-Nelly.html http://www.nochelatina.com/Articles/8178/Interview-with-Nelly-Furtado Manas justice (talk) 09:27, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

• I've put this extremely silly dispute in the hall of Wikipedia's lamest edit wars--ChromaNebula (talk) 21:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

To use the expression Canadian-Portuguese one only need to find a source that refers to her as such. I follow this article for some time now and i have to say that Kww is very active in this discussions, discarding all sources that are not in his favor with very doubtful reasons. I start to wonder if he doesn't have a feeling of ownership over this article.

1 - Many sources where presented that refereed to her as Portuguese-Canadian (Kww discarded them since he claims it's a reference to her ethnicity and not citizenship - a clear Original Research of his part, since he claims something based on his opinion and not on what a source says)

2 - Even if Furtado does not hold a Portuguese citizenship (which i doubt, Manual of Style do not forbid reference to ethnicity in the open paragraph. It even encourages a reference to ethnicity when they are relevant to the subject's notability.

3 - Many sources where presented where Furtado claims to be Portuguese, and how important it is for her and for her music and career to be Portuguese. Many songs and albums where influenced by Portuguese Folklore.

Conclusions: The open paragraph should state Canadian-Portuguese, since many sources refer to her as such and many others show her claiming how important to her career is her portuguese side. I can also conclude that Kww shows a clear Ownership of this article.

Suggestion: I don't know in what basis last consensus where made and i also don't know how long it was made, but i think there are new material that was brought to light that should be discussed and as such i think a Request for Consensus should be made. This is only a lame dispute since no consensus where made based in the new sources given. If a consensus is made regarding all the facts i stated, future disputes would be easily resolved by saying a consensus had been already achieved about it Tacv (talk) 23:05, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Improvements to the article

I think not only the fact that Nelly co-writes all her songs should be covered, but also her vocals, the different vocal-styles that she can adopt and her vocal range:Ab3-G5 (Mezzo soprano)Manas justice (talk) 11:33, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Sources which suggest nobility in relation to Portuguese connection

Vibe (magazine), CMJ, Rough Guide to Portugal, "The Portuguese-Canadian singer Nelly Furtado..." Kazakhstan By Paul Brummell, David Gray By Michael Heatley, "Portuguese-Canadian firecracker Nelly Furtado" Spin (magazine), "the Portuguese/Canadian singer Nelly Furtado" Encyclopedia of Motherhood, Volume 1 By Andrea O'Reilly, Time Out Dubai, etc. Interviews in which Furtado discusses the influences her Portuguese heritage have had on her music - [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], etc.

This was not an indepth search - I did a quick Google for Nelly Furtado Portuguese to see what turned up; however, there seems enough here to suggest that as regards WP:OPENPARA there is enough notability regarding Furtado's Portuguese ethnicity to put it into the opening paragraph as context. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:37, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that anyone is disputing that we have sources substantiating that her Portuguese ancestry has had an influence on her music. What makes you think that connection is strong enough that it outweighs our standard practice of not mentioning the ethnicity in the lead? I've always read WP:OPENPARA as stating that the ethnicity has to be related to the reason for her notability, not just something that frequently gets mentioned in relationship to her. It's hard to see that her notability has been driven or supported by her Portuguese ancestry, bearing in mind that her music is primarily in English, with one completely Spanish album, and only one released song that is actually in Portuguese. Consensus has generally aligned with this view so far as established editors are concerned, with the friction coming primarily, but not exclusively, from Portuguese IPs.

Other publications have different standards for mentioning ethnicity, so frequent description as "Portuguese-Canadian" isn't enough. If we adopted that as the standard for meeting the threshold in WP:OPENPARA, we'd have it all over Wikipedia. Portuguese publications, in general, can be suspected of using it as a method of explaining to the readers why the publication is interested in her.

That's why this has been treated as a WP:BLP issue in the past: since WP:OPENPARA tells us not to include it if it's an ethnicity, the demand has been for sources that describe it as citizenship before it could be included in the lead.—Kww(talk) 10:56, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

• the source has been found, but you reject it based on conspiracy theories.
• There are several songs where she partly sings in Portuguese and she doesn't done a Portuguese album and preferred a Spanish, because her family noticed that she sang better in Spanish than in Portuguese, no surprise it is easier and is a popular language in the US, widely spoken and easy for a Portuguese. You are being pedantic with that, sorry for that. In fact, wikipedia (and its clones) is the oddball. The same goes for the word "citizenship" that you used in order to reject the inclusion. No one refers to ones nationality as "I have Portuguese citizenship". Maybe that would be used for foreign people getting nationality, which is not the case of Nelly and similarly Lucenzo, a French-born Portuguese, which is also notable singer worldwide. the fact that many Portuguese IPs are doing that, is a good thing, if you know Portuguese culture in this regard, with its population and laws limiting ad extremum the nationality to people, even to people that are mostly Portuguese, by ascendancy and culture. She probably nows this.---Pedro (talk) 11:21, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Please don't accuse me of having rejected anything based on "conspiracy theories". I've been dealing with this issue in good faith, performing standard scrutiny of provided sources and finding them to be unreliable. When I took the sources to our noticeboard, the consensus among those that examined the sources was that the sources were unreliable.—Kww(talk) 11:29, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

sorry for that, it is just a rhetorical figure. I mean that your rejection has no realistic base. And the noticeboard is irrelevant as one person rejecting a group of sources (very probably with ignorance) doesnt make a crowd. And the rejected source is not the same I'm talking about, that even I reject it after knowing its origin, as you correctly point out its reliability problem... I'm talking about the booking agent source. --Pedro (talk) 11:52, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

If you are referring to Spirit Artists, that's a snapshot of the same last.fm article as any of the rest of them. Found the source for looking at the details of that articles changes, by the way: http://www.last.fm/music/Nelly+Furtado/+wiki/history .—Kww(talk) 12:14, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Kww That is not correct. You stated That's why this has been treated as a WP:BLP issue in the past: since WP:OPENPARA tells us not to include it if it's an ethnicity, which is incorrect. WP:OPENPARA does not forbid or tell not to include ethnicity in the open paragraph. It says and i quote: Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. So you're incorrect. Also many sources were presented that refereed to her as canadian-portuguese, you're the one that state it's a reference to her ethnicity, it's your opinion and is not based in sources while the expression "canadian-portuguese" is. Tacv (talk)

Please read all of what I said "I've always read WP:OPENPARA as stating that the ethnicity has to be related to the reason for her notability, not just something that frequently gets mentioned in relationship to her. It's hard to see that her notability has been driven or supported by her Portuguese ancestry, bearing in mind that her music is primarily in English, with one completely Spanish album, and only one released song that is actually in Portuguese. Consensus has generally aligned with this view so far as established editors are concerned, with the friction coming primarily, but not exclusively, from Portuguese IPs." Do you think that her Portuguese ancestry is part of the reason for her notability? Or do you disagree with that reading?—Kww(talk) 23:48, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't disagree i highly disagree. Notability define notability as "worthy of notice"; that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded". Notable in the sense of being "famous", or "popular"—although not irrelevant—is secondary. so yes i disagree with you. You tend to relate notability to "famous" or "popular" which is by WP secondary. Sources have been presented that showed that her portuguese side is very important, significant, interesting and unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded to her as a person and as an artist. Also you seem to discard the part where i said many sources were presented that refer to her as Canadian-Portuguese. The ethnicity is only been discussed because you discard all sources that state she is Canadian-Portuguese. You're the one that claim that it's a reference to her ethnicity - Original Research. The expression you discard is based on sources, your claims only on your opinion. Tacv (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:07, 21 May 2012 (UTC).

Her Portuguese side certainly is presented in the article. We are discussing only the contents of the lead paragraph. The Portuguese birth of her parents is discussed. It's not hidden in any way. I'm not certain where you wanted that red link to point, so I can't check your statement against its context. I am not confusing notability with popularity. I asked whether you interpret "relevant to the subject's notability" as meaning that it had to be related to the reason for the subject's notability, and you simply accused me of misunderstanding the word. I'll ask again: does "relevant to the subject's notability" mean that it has to be related to the reason for the subject's notability?—Kww(talk) 00:53, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not discussing the body of the article, don't dodge the bullet, i am talking about the open paragraph. Now:

1 - To add Canadian-Portuguese, one only need sources that reefer to her as such. Many sources were already presented. So there is no reason to even debate ethnicity.

2 - If ethnicity is needed to debate, then many sources were presented where it is shown that her portuguese side is important, significant, interesting and unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded to her as a person and as an artist. Which means her Portuguese side is relevant to her notability since notability is defined as "worthy of notice"; that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded".

So your question is indeed irrelevant since all the WP requirements to add Canadian-Portuguese in the lead are meet, regarding Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity) in the OPENPARA. Tacv (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:32, 21 May 2012 (UTC).

She is referred to as "Canadian Portuguese" in this article as well....http://www.maltastar.com/dart/20120625-nelly-furtado-in-malta-for-isle-of-mtvManas justice (talk) 10:56, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 September 2012

The line in the intro of article Furtado's fourth English-language studio album, The Spirit Indestructible, is set for release on September 11, 2012.. I think it should be changed to "Furtado's fourth English-language studio album, The Spirit Indestructible, was released in September 14, 2012", because the album was now released and the release date was September 14, not 11. 82.139.5.13 (talk) 15:36, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. HueSatLum 21:08, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

But according to the article about the album the release date is September 14, 2012 and today is September 17, so it means the album was released --82.139.5.13 (talk) 12:46, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

First, Wikipedia is not a source. However, the article states that the album was released on September 14 in Germany and Australia, which is sourced (although I'm not sure that iTunes is a reliable source.) How about, "Furtado's fourth English-language studio album, The Spirit Indestructible, was released on September 14, 2012 in Germany and Australia"? HueSatLum 00:52, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh, OK. BTW I only wanted to know --82.139.5.13 (talk) 19:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

And i agree with your proposal about changing the line --82.139.5.13 (talk) 19:49, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Done HueSatLum 21:47, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Awards and Accolades

The second paragraph should state:- "1 Grammy, 1 Latin Grammy, 1 Brit, 10 Juno awards and 3 MuchMusicVideo Awards"....so if someone could edit it, please????Manas justice (talk) 08:53, 5 October 2012 (UTC)