Talk:Nadia Ali (singer)/Archive 1

Needs updating

I'm not sure where to put this, but her page needs to be updated. Nadia Ali has already released her solo album "Embers" and updated her website & MySpace. She has three singles from Embers which includes Crash and Burn, Love Story, and Fine Print her most recent.

--Vevadia (talk) 20:17, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions for improvement

As requested by Hassan514 here.

Infobox

• Consider adding an unlinked United States or U.S. to the origin field, as some of our readers may not be familiar with American geography.
  •  Done
• Change trance and house to lowercase. Since genres are not proper nouns, only the first need be capitalised.
  •  Done
• Singer-songwriter should come under occupation. For instrument add [[Singing|Vocals]]. Does she play piano or anything else in any of her songs?
  •  Done
• Years active should be unspaced, so replace with 2001–present.
  •  Done
• Remove the records ending from the label field.
  •  Done
• You can replace her website entry with {{URL|nadiaali.com}}, this takes up less space and loads a little faster.
  •  Done

Lede

• The lede should summarise what is written in every other paragraph in the article, and as such should not contain information that is not present elsewhere in the article. For example, becoming one of the few vocalists to be recognised by name in the DJ-dominated Electronic Dance Music genre is not mentioned in the rest of the article.
  • Not sure I was reticent adding this myself, but just to help me out, what is the best place to add this information in the main body?
    • You've caught me out here! I'm not sure myself. If this was a statement to add to the Michael Jackson article, I would put it under "Legacy and influence". I guess having a similar section here would be difficult due to lack of sourcing, plus it's probably too early in her career. Note for such a statement you would definitely need a reliable source. If you can get one, maybe place it into the section of her career where she began to have this appreciation? doomgaze (talk) 17:16, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
• The two main styles for ledes are either reference the facts in it as you would for any other paragraph, or don't reference at all. Either add more references or remove the one already there (I'd choose the second option).

Early years

• The family relocated to Queens, New York shortly after, when she was still a child, and has remained there ever since. The use of commas reads funny, consider rephrasing.
  •  Done

Solo career

• The first, "Who Is Watching?", was a collaboration with Dutch DJ/producer Armin van Buuren, Remove dj/producer, you already mentioned in the previous sentence that she was working with djs\producers.
  •  Done
• Unlink John Creamer & Stephane K, this is linked in the previous paragragh.
  •  Not done Since it's only linked in the lede, should I unlink based on that?
    • I've never been quite sure about whether to repeat a link if it's linked in the lede first. Per WP:REPEATLINK, it would seem that we should unlink but I wouldn't mind if you kept it linked. I think if you do keep it, you should be consistant and do the same for other words that first appear in the lede, such as Hot Dance Club Play Chart too. doomgaze (talk) 16:22, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
• Be careful calling Pete Tong a tastemaker, unless this is sourced this looks quite NPOV.
  •  Done However, Pete Tong has quite a big following and known for setting 'trends' in electronic music. I have removed that until I find a proper source which mentions that.
    • I would agree that he is a "tastemaker", but unfortunately i'm not a reliable source haha! Holding off till a good source can be found is a sound idea. doomgaze (talk) 16:22, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
      • Yeah, struggling a bit with this, he's called tastemaker again and again but a lot of the times its in press releases by artists who he has promoted on his radio show Hassan514 (talk) 09:04, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Embers

• Perhaps link EP to [[extended play|EP]]?
  •  Done
• NPOV again with club smash.
  •  Done
• Love story" should be "Love Story".
  •  Done
• Link Beatport and iTunes.
  •  Done
• BeatPort released Love Story (Part 2) exclusively, consider rephrasing, this makes it sound like this was the only album beatport released.
  •  Done

Queen of clubs

• Probably don't need to link to Germany.
  •  Done
• Link YouTube.
  •  Done
• Link Queen of Clubs to [[Queen (playing card)|Queen of Clubs]]?
  •  Done
• Careful with tastemaker.
  •  Done
• Due to be released in spring '2011, remove the apostrophe.
  •  Done
• Released by Harem Records on February 9."Call My Name" has become a club hit Need a space between 9 and call, avoid club hit.
  •  Done
• Avoid using currently. Perhaps change to As of April 2011, Ali is working on...?
  •  Done
• On April 25, Ali announced the first single from her upcoming dance album will be called "Such Love" with a release date to be announced in summer 2011. . add a that after announced and a comma after "Such Love".
  •  Done
• Possibly link Hawaii.
  •  Done

Discography

• No problems

Awards

• Both songs should not be in italics and should be formatted as "Love Story" (and so on) instead.
  •  Done

References

• Here is the area which most stops the article having a higher rating. Firstly, re-format the references you have using {{cite web}} or {{cite news}} or whatever is appropriate to help lessen the impact of link rot. You will also need many more references as there are many facts that should be referenced that are not. Many of your references should not be used, such as the links to her facebook, twitter and this. Sources should ideally be reliable sources that are independent of the subject. The second is not a cast-iron requirement; a few links to her record label or a press release are usually ok. You need to track down more independent sources though. Since she appears quite successful finding reviews/interviews should (hopefully) be not that difficult. I've managed to find tonnes for my own pet project This Will Destroy You, who are comparative nobodies who have never charted and very probably never will (note this article is very much a work in progress). A lot of the sites that turn up using a Google News search are usually reliable.
  • Thank you, for such a detailed feedback. I am quite aware of how much I link to her personal links but the hard part with Ali's work is that since she is not well known outside her genre, there is a lack of independent sources available to verify details such as music video directors, locations, details on the upcoming album and her tours. I am concerned about the lack of critical opinions of her singles myself, but the best I could find was a review or maximum of two, which in my opinion would only skew critique of her work in only direction (either good or bad). For example, even with having more than one single to chart, Billboard has no official biography for her and since I knew these singles had charted, I had to search through the archives to just find the week in which the single peaked. Similarly, for Embers even after more than a year and half of its release I was only able to find three reviews which would be considered "professional". However, if you think even the opinion of the one review is enough to comment on the article, I'm happy to change that. As far as her section of "Early Years" is concerned, I have barely edited that myself yet but I do plan to work on that eventually and remove most of the links available there with independent ones. Hassan514 (talk) 14:23, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
    • Don't worry, I understand this difficulty. If you absolutely must reference something from her facebook or twitter or something, make sure you use an archival service such as WebCite as these pages can change very often. It's pretty quick and easy, but if you don't know how to use it just drop me a message and I can give you a hand.
      
      Do you reckon Nadia Ali may have had reviews in print magazines that have not been put online? Sending an email to her or her representatives might be a good idea: they could tell you where she's been reviewed and might even have copies of these reviews. Does she have a press agent? Someone like that would particularly want her to have a detailed wikipedia entry. I have emailed editors of magazines a few times to ask for reviews, and most have been quite helpful. Darren Taylor of Rock Sound deserves a special mention, he's helped me find reviews in his magazine from years ago several times. I don't know what magazines cover electronic dance music but that might be one thing you could try. Also check back through her old myspace posts too, artists usually seem to link to press mentions that they receive.
      
      But I do see your point about writing about critical reception with only a small number of critics' reviews as this could give an inaccurate impression of how good/bad the release was, but I reckon some critics analysis is better than none. If you can't find any more coverage perhaps limit the critics' judgments just to the releases that have been covered enough times? doomgaze (talk) 16:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
      • I have done some major changes to the solo career section. As you suggested, I have added background to the debut album and the trilogy, included a few reviews there were available for the album and also cut down the numbers of DJs to basically the ones who have wikipedia pages, which is still an extensive list. I will definitely appreciate some help with that. She does have a PR agent, who I have emailed asking for more detail since that would definitely be helpful with critique of her singles (even on their own pages). Her old myspace posts have been more helpful with her early years section since she has written about how she was discovered and her influences. I will start working on that section shortly. When you have sometime, I would love feedback on the changes I have made. Also, your own project proved quite helpful to me in rewriting this section. Thanks! 09:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hassan514 (talk • contribs)

General points

• A lot of mention goes into which DJ is remixing what track, which gets a tad repetitive. While charts positions are mentioned, there is a lack of critics opinions. Did she get positive reviews, negative? Hopefully by digging up more sources you can expand on the information already present.
  • The remixers were not listed by me and I do understand why you want them removed because I myself also feel they are repetitive. However, this also relates to what is mentioned in the lede as for a vocalist in Electronic Dance Music, Ali is one of the most, if not the most prominent one. This is where her "star power" comes in that she is able to get some of the most well known DJs and producers to remix her work, hence, I decided to keep them. I have already spoken in more detail about critical reviews in the section above and will try to find more material about that Hassan514 (talk) 14:23, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
    • Ah yes, I see. It wouldn't be that much of an issue if some more sources for more content could be found, but as the article is now these mentions seem a bit list-like. Perhaps just keep it to the most famous/notable producers? More info about the remixes could then be added to individual pages for her singles. doomgaze (talk) 16:54, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
• When I write/expand articles I usually look to a featured article in a similar category to see how that is written/arranged. Here Michael Jackson is a good example, as he and Ali were both singers in a group who then went solo, though I'm sure there are other examples.

Please note that I am not an expert so not all of this will be 100% correct. If you disagree with any points raised, please let me know, that way hopefully we can both learn something! If you want to get this article up to Good Article status I suggest you implement these changes then request a peer review, where someone with a bit more experience can give you some further advice. Hope this was helpful, doomgaze (talk) 12:24, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

More Suggestions

I just had a glance over now to see if there's anything else that should be changed. Some of what I said last time still applies (such as references & use of citation templates). Here's what I came up with, in no particular order:

• Billboard is a magazine, and so should be stylised as Billboard in all cases here.

 Done I also relinked it to Billboard Charts

• The 2010-present: Queen of Clubs Trilogy: The Best of Nadia Ali Remixed and other projects heading is very long. Perhaps shorten it by removing the best of nadia ali remixed?

 Done

• For discographies it seems to be more common to use {{Main| discography}} rather than {{see| discography}}. You would use {{see| discography}} if there was, say, a iiO discography article.

 Done

• Infobox image needs alt text. See Wikipedia:Alternative text for images.

 Done

• You probably wouldn't get away with using the album artwork further down the article since this is a copyrighted image. We can use album art in articles about albums under "fair use" laws but I've not seen an article pass WP:GA without removing them from the main body. For more info see Wikipedia:Non-free content.

 Not done I didn't remove it at the moment since the image isn't an album artwork. The photo was used to promote the image of Ali as 'Queen of Clubs' and since there wasn't any free images, which could replace this one, that's why I used it and provided that in the rationale.

Ah I just assumed it was artwork. I don't know what rules there are for promo images like that so I reckon it's alright to use then. doomgaze (talk) 09:51, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I checked the rational using movie posters, and used that here, I do think the image is helpful here since it shows how she used the "Queen of Clubs" moniker for herself and her work. Also, she has been consistently referred to as the 'queen' of dance music in a lot of press releases by other labels as well, so I think it helps put into perspective where the title is coming from.

• In the line Other collaborators include BT, BT links to a disambiguation page. You would need to pipe the link as [[BT (musician)|BT]].

 Done

• Decapitalise Electronic Dance Music.

 Done

• Maybe put together a Musical style section or something like that? Alot of good articles / featured articles have one. You could then move the bit about her influences to this section, as it reads a bit odd to have them earlier on. This is assuming that there is enough material for one of course!

 Doing... I have made a new section for influences. I have been working on a musical style section but haven't posted it here yet since it needs more.

•  Done

Hope this has been helpful. doomgaze (talk) 12:24, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks heaps for your help. Once, I'm done referencing all her early work, I would definitely appreciate some help with archiving the links. Also, what referencing style is the most appropriate to use? At the moment I'm just writing the title of the page and the date I retrieved them. Hassan514 (talk) 00:41, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Still more suggestions

Hey, sorry for the delay in getting back to you, weathers been too nice recently! I've tried to actually refer to some guidelines this time, instead of just from memory!

• Ali has stated herself that with Embers she didn't want → did not want
  •  Done

• Citations 7, 9, 48 and 49 should go after the punctuation.
  •  Done

• When you want to use the same source more than once, it's useful to use the <ref name> function. When you use a source for the first time, instead of writing <ref> blah blah blah blah </ref>, write <ref name=whateveryoulike> blah blah blah blah </ref>. Then the second, third, fourth etc time you use the source you just have to put <ref name=whateveryoulike/>. There's more info about this at WP:REFNAME.

• Quoting from the Good Article criteria, Web references need the author, publisher, publishing date and access date. You've been putting two of the four so you would need to add the other two (where available, as it's not always stated). I have to say citation styles massively confuse me so I always use the {{cite web}} (for websites), {{cite news}} (for newspapers) or {{cite journal}} (for magazines) templates. There are some others, but I use these 90% of the time. They are usually formatted like '''<ref>{{cite web |url= |title= |last= |first= |work= |date=}}</ref>''' and you just fill in the missing spaces with whatever information you have available. More infos: Template:Cite web, Template:Cite news and Template:Cite journal. There is also usually an |accessdate= field, but i'll tell you why I wouldn't suggest using one in the next point :D
  • Finally did this. Thank you so much for your help pointing me to all these resources. I have been working on updating her article for almost a year now but finally got around to giving it a much more proper look with more informative content. Hassan514 (talk) 09:21, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

• This is not at all a required point for good articles, or even for featured articles (though it is very useful sometimes). I would still recommend you archive your sources, as if/when they go offline it can be very frustrating trying to get them back (if you can at all). To archive a website, go to www.webcitation.org/archive, put the address of the page you want to archive into the top field and your email into the second field (don't bother with the others). Press sumbit, then click on the archived link that somes up to test it (should look a bit like http://www.webcitation.org/5yXcc6kEI). This is the archived URL, so if the website you are referencing goes offline or changes that page, you've got a backup. These should be put into the cite web template by adding '''|archiveurl''' and '''|archivedate''' fields to the end. Note if you've got an archivedate field, you don't need an accessdate (as far as I know). More general info at WP:ROT.

• All references need to be to reliable sources. I think most of yours are ok, apart from 20 and 44. Sputnikmusic is a bit of a odd site as it has reviews both by paid staff and by users who submit their own reviews (like you or me could). The only reviews we can use on wikipedia from this site are the ones marked "Staff" or "Emeritus" (who is someone who used to work there but has since left).
  •  Done. Yeah, I had doubts about using that review, but used it anyways. Thanks for pointing it out. Removed material quoted from there

• Wikilink Stevie Nicks?
  • That was already done where Nicks is mentioned as an influence. No need to do it again?
    • Ah yes I missed that, you're quite correct. doomgaze (talk) 07:35, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
• Numbers less than 10 should be spelled out as words. Therefore change, The single charted at number 2 → The single charted at number two. There might be other examples of this.
  •  Done

• There's a random apostrophe in The music video for the single was shot in Hawaii in April '2011.
  •  Done

• Musical Style and Influences → Musical style and influences.
  •  Done

I found this very useful, maybe it might help you out too!

Thanks will check this out and get working on the references soon as well. Thanks for all your help again! Hassan514 (talk) 02:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

As usual, if there are any questions lemme know. Best, doomgaze (talk) 02:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Nadia Ali's infuencess

I've read all the sorcess that are provided about ali's musical formation, and actually fellow editors are adding artists that don't apears on the sources, also, he/she seems to dislike some artists that already Ali's have declared that she loves: Here is the full Quote:

"Who are some of your musical guilty pleasures?

I’m gonna get in trouble for this, you see some of these people I know people are gonna be like “Why are they guilty pleasures, they are so good!” I’m just gonna admit to some of the people that I really love. I really love Bryan Adams, I love his music, he is I think a huge eighties pop rock icon, so I really love him. I really love country music, and some of the artists that I love are actually Taylor Swift, but she’s more pop, I love the Dixie Chicks all that stuff is really good"http://blog.promotion-us.com/nadia-ali-interview

i think that is enough to add'em, i'll wait a reply, hopefuly we'll reach a fair concensous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.165.11.24 (talk) 04:37, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Radiohead appears in the muumuse interview as someone she was influenced by while working on Embers. I have nothing against the artists I removed, but to say she loves listening to them does not imply that she said her work is influenced by them, particularly Taylor Swift who started her career long after Ali had established herself. I'm sure others can weigh in about whether to add or remove them from the list of artists she's been influenced by. Hassan514 (talk) 05:18, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Rave

Does this article really fit into the scope of WikiProject Rave? – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 21:15, 8 June 2011 (UTC)