Talk:Miguel de Cervantes/Archive 1

misc

I don't see Beethoven in the Ludwig Beethoven page.--AN

A page on famous hispanics http://coloquio.com/famosos/alpha.htm Got any others? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.213.111.51 (talk)

Spanish capitalization - please stop capitalizing the titles of his works in Spanish as if they were English. Spanish capitalizes only the first word and proper names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deisenbe (talk • contribs)

Cervantes' sexual orientation

i heard he was gay —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.224.46.142 (talk)

That is controversial, at best. Because of the uncertainties it does not warrant a prominent place as user Haiduc has in mind. For instance, Haiduc claims that Cervantes was ransomed for 500 escudos (that's Portugese coinage, right? Odd...) because the Algerian bey fancied him. Whereas allthe Encyclopedia Brittanica say that this was because he had letters of recommendations from high-placed people on him when he was captured. The meaning of the words "my beloved" cannot be interpreted as an indication of homosexuality per se. Facts about some gay cardinal should be on a seperate page. Cervantes had to flee to Rome, possibly because of a duel as several sources claim, not because of some 'sinful acts' insinuating homosexuality. Haiduc says there was no offspring but the EB says he had a daughter. Haiduc writes he married her for her money but the EB says her dowry was minimal (it included 'one cock', but let's not make a row about the meaning of that :-). Don Quixote had "no interest whatsoever in women". So what? The man was crazy, right?

If there are doubts about Cervantes' sexuality put them down in a seperate section and don't present them as 100% facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.163.166.47 (talk)

The problem with your critique is that you are expressing an opinion, whereas the material I brought in has been obtained from works published by historians through established publishing houses, in English as well as in French. Furthermore you are being inconsistent. Having asked for, and received sources for the info, you persist in removing corroborated information from this article. So I suggest that we come to some consensus on what to keep and what to remove. Where you have conflicting information I will gladly renounce that claim. But where you do not, it should stand. That's how things are done around here, lest I be mistaken. Haiduc 03:27, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is you who is opinionated. The same article you reference says "he might have been", "there is much to support". There is no certainty proclaimed there so this issue should not be presented in an encyclopedia as a fact. For instance, I could not find any Cervantes biographies on the Internet where there is even a hint of his assumed homosexuality. One could make point by point rebuttals as you seem to ask but it is not worth the effort. Please understand that the point you are trying to make is too controversial at this stage. Why not spend time on cases more deserving of your time such as Leonardo, Oscar Wilde, Alexander the Great or ancient Greece in general? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.163.166.47 (talk)

I think there is a connotational difference between expressing an opinion and being opinionated. The Dynes book you are refering to is not as up-to-date as the French material. But I think your earlier suggestion is appropriate, to put this material, with references, in a separate paragraph, indicating that this is new information that has not gained universal currency. Haiduc 13:46, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

But enough about his sexual orientation, I heard he liked fish and his favorite colour was blue. Anyone thinks that should be in the article? Piet 15:30, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

• regarding the "my beloved" phrase referenced in an earlier comment, I want to point out that if this refers to any phrase "Mi querido.." in a Spanish document, that can also be translated as "my dear..." and has no such connotatons of "beloved" (cf. English "my dear sir", etc.)

• Where has the sexuality section gone, anyway? Nothing on the page now. glasperlenspiel 21:45, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
  • I removed the header since it didn't contain anything Gkhan 22:00, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)

Ana

I was reading the introduction to Don Quixote as written by Motteux and I was very astonished by what he wrote on Cervantes's life. I know that Motteux was a very unreliable source, but what he says I do not know if it is true or not. He writes that Ana Francisca de Rojas, the mistress or girlfriend of Cervantes, was a converted Christain, he had met her in Algiers and brought her back to Madrid with him. She was Muslim and a Moor. If this is true, which I don't know if it is, why can't we add it into the article? Sandy June 21:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Shakespeare and Cervantes

Any objections to de-bolding the text in this section? Conversely, any reason it was bolded in the first place? Hiberniantears 16:18, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Cervantes on Hu:

According to a check on hu interwiki to 1616, Cervantes is for consistency to be - on that particular Wikipedia! - the page hu interwiki to Miguel Cervantes, which however like hu interwiki to Miguel de Cervantes does not exist yet either. The hu: / Magyar interwiki when it finally does exist should be to M Cervantes in other words, not M(iguel) _de_ Cervantes. If the anon who's been adding many Magyar interwikis over en:, most of them helpfully, sees this, please note this with (my) sincere thanks. Schissel : bowl listen 12:39, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

Self-citing

Keithlaw deleted my book from the bibliography and said I had put it there myself and this was vanity. I didn't put it there! I don't know who did. But I HAVE put it back. Daniel 16:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Tone of first paragraph

Although I am a huge fan of Cervantes, I find the first paragraph of this article a little unencyclopedic:

which is considered by many to be not only the first modern novel, but also one of the greatest works in Western literature and certainly the greatest of the Spanish language. He is arguably, the Spanish Language equivalent of William Shakespeare.

1. "the Spanish Language equivalent of William Shakespeare" seems to me to be superfluous.
2. "one of the greatest works in Western literature and certainly the greatest of the Spanish language" - define and defend, then give sources and avoid opinion.
3. "the first modern novel" - first you need to define "modern"; what about "one of the first" ?

-- NYArtsnWords 06:40, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

• In Prof. Daniel Burt's book The Novel 100, he names Don Quixote as the greatest novel of all time, and identifies its publication as the birth of the modern novel. I don't think that that part of the intro is out of line. It is certainly the first Western novel. "One of the first novels" or "one of the first modern novels" would be inaccurate unless we can identify predecessors. Similarly, I don't see it as unencyclopedic that DQ is "one of the greatest works in Western literature," because that is a widely held if not universally held opinion. | Keithlaw 21:11, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The real identity of Cervantes

Very little is known for sure about Cervantes. He said to have been born in no less than five different places, so no one knows where it was. All encyclopedias say Alcalà de Henares because at mid 20th century, historians decided this agreement (with strong oppositions remaining). One Miguel de Cervantes living in Alcalà de Henares existed, there is no doubt about it, but he was poor and with little education. At the moment of his death he owned only three books. His doughter could not read. However, in year 1590 Cervantes sent a memorandum asking for a high employement in the government (with the rank of governor of a province, or similar), arguing that he wanted to serve his king as his ancestors did. Probably two Miguel de Cervantes existed, but only one of them is the writer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.212.29.67 (talk)

• That's wrong. There were not two Miguel de Cervantes. It has been found that the Alcalá de Henares origin is based on a fake document. The certificate is of someone named Caravantes, but the word "Miguel" is written with a different ink (different color) and with another handwriting. The original name has been scratched out. 62.57.141.163 20:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

excuse me my english, it's not my mother tongue.. I heard that the writer was from Catalan-Aragonese crown and the novel Don Quixote was wtien originaly in catalan. One prove about it, in the III chapter of the second book, it's mentioned that "i sino que lo digan Portugal, Barcelona y Valencia, donde se han impreso más de doce mil libros de la tal historia" translated (aproximately) is: "in Portugal, BARCELONA and Valencia are twelve thousand impressed books" The editions of Portugal and Valencia were founded but the edition of Barcelona was never founded, and for replace it was created the edition of Madrid. What do you think about a crazy man who travels around the country, fighting against giants, against wind mill, and, when he arrives at Barcelona (Catalan-Aragonese crown) recovers of its madness. And in all the novel appears constantly words of another language, concretely Catalan. My opinion is the novel was written in other language, in concretely Catalan, the censors of that time applied a brutal censorship in the original novel and the result is the novel which all of you know. as a matter of interest, the originally title of the novel was "EL CUIXOT" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.61.208.11 (talk)

• Please note that fake editions were pretty usual then. Suppose you want to sell a forbidden book. You print it with a fake origin and a fake date, which happens to be one or two years before the ban was issued. When the inquisition find your stock of books, you can claim you printed them legally. This trick was also used to avoid paying the author. 62.57.141.163 20:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

On the current Article

I just finished reading the article on Cervantes and I have several things to say about it. First of all i'd like to say that I enjoyed it, but there's several critiques to be made on it. To begin with: the diction is much too latinized. I sometimes got the impression I was reading Samuel Johnson or some such writer. The author should consider reducing the amount of latinate words. As for the architecture of syntax: I found it a bit antiquated. It reads more like an 18th century critical essay than a 21st century one. There are also extended sections in which the author talks alot but doesn't say much. He should consider condensing his ideas and doing away with any filler material whatsoever. Another good idea would be to divide the long paragraphs into shorter ones, thus making the essay as a whole more accessible. -- I should hope the author will not take the preceding critique amiss: i've simply tried to throw out some constructive criticism out there.

Erik M. C. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.159.219.9 (talk • contribs) 02:15, 24 September 2005.

Cleanup tag

I slapped a {{cleanup}} tag on this article for the very reasons the prior poster mentioned. The section on his works is unreadable. It was either translated from another language (Spanish, I presume) or it's just not well written. It should be about half its current length and the florid language should be eliminated. Before I break out the ma#h%te, I`thought Igd post here and see if anyone has comments or objections. | Keithlaw 21:07, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

• Update 10/30/05: I moved the section on La Numancia to the article for that work, which was just a one-line stub, and I began to pare the section on Don Quixote. The opinions of the article's writer make up more than half of the article's content, so I'm deleting some paragraphs entirely to try to strip it down to the facts. Any analysis of DQ belongs in the article for the novel itself, not in an article about the author. | Keithlaw 15:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

It is interesting to note that most of this article comes word for word from other sources, such as [1]. This article desperately needs a cleanup and complete reorganization. --69.142.56.219 19:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

One thing that needs to be done is to massively cut down the Don Quixote section - it links to a article on the subject so there is no way there should be two pages discussing it here, one paragraph is all that is needed, or we are just going to have large amounts of duplicate/overlapping information. The tone of much of it is wrong as well, suggestions on the best tone for a translator to take approaching the work doesn't seem very encyclopaedic (citations from an expert on the work as to which existing translations are more accurate to the original would however be ok imo, at least for such a major work anyway). Sfnhltb 15:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Would anyone mind moving the tag to the appropriate section(s), where it would be less obtrusive? Piet 12:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Idiotic comment

"Cervantes signed his surname as "Cerbantes," but he accepted the spelling "Cervantes" which typesetters (often much better spellers than authors) put on the title page of all of his published books."

This comment is retarded. Whether or not typesetters spell better than authors is of no relevance here. First of all, a person's name does not subject to any particular spelling rules, and, second, there is no distinction between the sounds "b" and "v" in the Spanish language. I have not deleted the comment so that others can form an opinion. (Excuse my harsh language, but I was annoyed by the comment.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.211.7.138 (talk)

I don't know where people get the idea that there is no distinction between "b" and "v" in Spanish. In quick speech they may sound similar, especially to one not familiar with the language, and they are sometimes even switched, as in pronouncing "veinte" as "beinte" and "bola" as "vola", but they are never confused. In some dialects (especially South American varieties), the "v" turns into a soft "b" sound and the "b" turns into sound that's almost like a "w", except the lips slightly touch. 76.95.40.6 (talk) 10:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Pointless facts

He died in Madrid on April 23, 1616; coincidentally William Shakespeare also died on that date, though Cervantes died ten days earlier than Shakespeare, Spain being on the Gregorian calendar and England being on the Julian calendar calendar. In 1850 William Wordsworth died on April 23 and in 1915 Rupert Brooke died on the same date.

One has to wonder why this was included. I can see slight relevence in the peculiar dates of deaths for each of these men, but the article is on Cervantes. If someone wishes to find the date of death of Rupert Brooke, William Wordsworth, or Shakespeare, I would think they would go to their respective articles. In any case, if someone wants to rephrase the above paragraph in a more literate fashion, go ahead. I'm deleting it right now, so add it back in.--69.142.56.219 19:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Converso origins?

What evidence is there that his mother was a converso (descendant of Jews who converted to the Catholic faith?

- random guy (68.239.148.191)

== Don Quixote is the first true modern novel, a "systemical" and "structural masterpiece" in fact "coded in kabalistical keys". Yes it is true, absolutely true. But it would be right to mention name who made this discovery in 1967 : Dominique Aubier. More informations about it ont http://www.lucafilms.es/El-secreto.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.156.22.102 (talk)

"Coded cabbalistic keys"? Are there any second oppinions on that besides those of Dominique Aubier and/or Prof. MacGaha? --Plumcouch ^Talk2Me 17:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Date of Death

It is well known now (see Encyclopaedia Britannica, Encarta, etc.) that Cervantes died on April 22, not 23, of 1616. The latter was the date of his burial. I've changed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.55.110.161 (talk)

The Introduction and biography section

Does the fact that Ben-Gurion and Dostoevsky were big fans of Cervantes really belong in the introduction? I think that this is information for the historical significance or trivia sections, but not the introduction. Also, in the middle of a paragraph about his childhood it is stated that Shakespeare probably read Cervantes. Should this be moved somewhere else? Where? I will probably edit this article soon but I would appreciate comments. Academic Challenger 03:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Is the Ben Gurion story true? I have heard it about Sigmund Freud, not Ben Gurion. --Error 19:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Did a google search and was unable to find a source to confirm the Ben-Gurion claim. Couldn't even confirm that he knew Spanish. Added a citation request to the article. Javadane 21:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

First Novel in the Western Literary Canon and Date of Death

I deleted the claim that Don Quixote is the first novel in the Western Literary Canon, because it is false, ignorant, and meaningless. It directly contradicts other parts of this article (for example, in the introduction, where Don Quixote is said to be considered by some to be the first modern novel - clearly implying that there were novels before it, and in any case that it is not a "universally considered" fact as was formerly stated) and the one on Don Quixote itself, in which I do not believe this claim was ever made.

Also, in the Spanish version of this article it says that Cervantes died on the 22 of April or something, one day earlier than his death in this article. This is significant because the date here listed is also the date of the death of Shakespeare, but in the Spanish version it clearly states that it is false that Shakespeare and Cervantes died on the same day, but people often list the date of Cervantes death incorrectly, leading to this belief. I don't know which version is right, but since this issue is specifically addressed in the Spanish version and not here, I'd tend to be more willing to believe that one. eeesh98 138.16.15.138 20:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Miguel de Cervantes

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 16:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Copy with no refernce

For the world at large interest in Cervantes centres particularly in "Don Quixote", and this has been regarded chiefly as a novel of purpose. It is stated again and again that he wrote it in order to ridicule the romances of chivalry and to destroy the popularity of a form of literature which for much more than a century had engrossed the attention of a large proportion of those who could read among his countrymen and which had been communicated by them to the ignorant. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03543a.htm Alhoori 20:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Excommunication

The article does not seem to have any info on his excommunication and later recommunication by the Church. -- Jordi·✆ 23:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Authorial Identity: Cervantes is Shakespeare?

I have pasted the section on Cervantes in Shakespearean authorship question.

Carlos Fuentes raised an intriguing possibility in his book Myself With Others: Selected Essays (1988) noting that, "Cervantes leaves open the pages of a book where the reader knows himself to be written and it is said that he dies on the same date, though not on the same day, as William Shakespeare. It is further stated that perhaps both were the same man. Cervantes's debts and battles and prisons were fictions that permitted him to disguise himself as Shakespeare and write his plays in England, while the comedian Will Shaksper, the man with a thousand faces, the Elizabethan Lon Chaney, wrote Don Quixote in Spain. This disparity between the real days and the fictitious date of a common death spared world enough and time for Cervantes's ghost to fly to London in time to die once more in Shakespeare's body. But perhaps they are not really the same person, since in the calendars in England and Spain have never been the same, in 1616 or in 1987." Out of all of the potential candidates, Cervantes' life spans that of Shakespeare's. Indeed, he is the only candidate to have died in the same year as Shakespeare. Miguel de Cervantes would have had the experience and the knowledge of Italy and other geographic areas that appear in Shakespeare's plays. Furthermore, the story of The Taming of the Shrew predates Shakespeare's play and originated in Spain. Likewise, the story of Romeo and Juliet originated in Italy, also predating Shakespeare's play. Cervantes' candidacy rests in large part on his knowledge and, equally so, on his extensive travels. One other intriguing piece of evidence, that may shed some light on the authorial connection between Cervantes and Shakespeare lies in the pages of Don Quixote itself. The name Cid Hamete Benengeli (that of the author or translator of the story according to Cervantes) can be translated as Lord Hamlet, of England. It is also worth noting, that one of Shakespeare's lost plays, Cardenio, was based upon the stories of Cervantes' great novel, Don Quixote. User: Lad2000

I have left a question on Talk:The Taming of the Shrew, wasn't it from Decameron?

Conde Lucanor. --Error 22:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

About the meaning of Cide Hamete Benengeli, it is stated by Cervantes himself that Benengeli comes from the Arabic for eggplant "because Moors like eggplants very much".

--Error 18:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The Spanish word berenjena means eggplant. I realize this. The suggestion that has been made by certain scholars is that one can translate Benengeli as Ben (which would mean son) and engeli(which could mean England). Cid or Cide does in fact mean Lord. And Hamete is one letter away from the name Hamlet. I am simply putting forward what other scholars, in particular Francis Carr. Francis Carr is a proponent that Francis Bacon was the author of Shakespeare's plays, and that he also authored Cervantes' Don Quixote. My opinion is that Miguel de Cervantes took the pen-name William Shakespeare. I do not subscribe to Carr's belief that Bacon was both men. However, I direct you to the following char Carr compiled with textual similarities: http://www.sirbacon.org/links/carrtable1.html. The English translation of Don Quixote has many more textual similarities with Shakespeare's plays than either do with works written by Bacon. This does much to explain the substantial amount of gaps that appear in Carr's chart between Cervantes and Bacon and between Shakespeare and Bacon.

Carr's own assertion is that: "It is brought to our attention that the name of the" real author" of Don Quixote de La Mancha is Cid Hamet Benengeli, an Arab historian. This is completely fictitious, no author by that name ever existed. Not only does the author put forth this name as the real author but it's mentioned thirty-three times. Why should someone keep on repeating and repeating a name if he does not want you to take that name seriously? It's a very odd name, Cid Hamet Benengeli. Cid translates as Lord, Hamet - Hamlet, Benengeli--ben means son, engeli can mean of England. So we get Lord Hamlet, son of England--Francis Bacon." (http://www.sirbacon.org/carrinterview.htm) User: Lad2000

Rewrite sentence?

"coincidentally William Shakespeare also died on that date, but not on the same day;"

that just doesn't really sound right to me, it basically contradicts itself. Sahuagin 14:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

bah nevermind... maybe i should read the whole thing before i comment Sahuagin 14:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that is true. Shakespeare died on May 3, 1616, but the calendar was then amended ten days back. This means that it is now officially recorded that Shakespeare also died on April 23, 1616, when in fact the real date is May 3. AlbertSM (talk) 20:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

So how is Cervantes a 'Jewish writer'? Because of 'coded messages'. I'm afriad I don't think that this quite cuts it.

Mexican Festival

Isn't there a festival in october based on him whats it calledChild Unit Sam 03:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Refs and notes

The notes do not link back to the references. The note A should send back to ref A but sends to the inexistent ref Anone. Is somebody proficient in the note templates? --Error 22:22, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Lack of neutrality in Ethnic and Religious Heritage Section

I have deleted the first paragraph that says the following:

"Though most Cervantes scholars regard Cervantes of Spanish blood as far as his geneaology could be analyzed, some researchers suggest possible Basque and Portuguese origins. Jordi Bilbeny ("Foundation of Historical Studies of Catalonia" or "Fundació d'Estudis Històrics de Catalunya") has found hundreds of direct and indirect evidences that Cervantes wrote his work in Catalan, but the Spanish censorship forced its translation to Spanish, and got rid of the original, Catalan versions."

First, who are the researchers claiming Cervantes had Basque and/or Portuguese origin? Second, the Basques were spreaded across all Spain since the Middle Ages since they settled in the territories conquered to the Moors. Many places in nearly all Spanish provinces carry Basque names and Basque surnames are quite common, hence it is not correct to distinguish between Basque and Spanish blood. Third: The source provided that claims Cervantes as a catalan writter is not reliable, since Jordi Bilbeny is not a scholar specialized in Cervantine studies. Fourth: Some of the hundreds of reasons that lead to the conclusion that The Quixote was originally written in Catalan could be provided. Because of the origin of these "studies" about the origins of Cervantes, I highly suspect the author of this modification has a non neutral point of view and to be more precise, a catalan nationalist agenda. Please stop saying nonsenses in Wikipedia and write verifiable information. No reputed scholars say The Quixote was written in Catalan nor Cervantes was a Portuguese. If not, please cite them and the researches where they say that. Cervantes wrote his poetry in Catalan too? Wow, metrics and rhyme remained perfectly after the translation to Spanish.

Adolfo 16:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you will find these things suspitious:

1- The Castillians appear in the story as vulgar, stupid and mad people. On the other hand, Catalans are described as very respectable people.

2- The Quixote defends Rocaguinarda, who was a Catalan bandit, and others in Catalonia who fight the viceroy of spain. He says one may notice he is in Catalonia because of the high number of people (presumably Castillians) hanging from trees.

3- The Quixote says the most beautiful cities in Europe are Barcelona and Valencia (Catalan was (and is) the language of both).

4- The Quixote says Catalan (in speacial the Valencian dialect) is the language of the world which sounds better.

5- He says Catalan nobelty is very kind and noble. The only Castillian noblepeople (Although I am not sure about that) who appear in the story are the Quixote himself, a madman who thinks is a knight, and Dulcinea del Toboso, a pig breeder who believes the Quixote when he tells her she is a princess.

6- The Quixote says those who change their language (Catalan as the action then is in Catalonia) by the invaders' language are betrayers.

7- The Quixote is a crazy Castillian who gets sane when he arrives to Catalonia. And after dies.

Just a question: isn't it suspitious for you?

By J.V.B. (sorry about any error. English is not my language)

More "Spanish censorship" with a "Spanish nationalistic agenda". All the evidences found so far of the Catalan origin of Cervantes are at the "Foundation of Historical Studies of Catalonia" webpage (the English section http://histocat.com/hta/v31.htm is shorter than the Catalan section). Read it, it's quite appalling! Another sample of Spanish censorship: saying that it is not correct to distinguish between Basque and Spanish!!! This is so self-evident that leaves your opinion (Adolfo) worthless. Can't you just leave other possible origins of Cervantes in this tiny section??? Even Cervantes' "official" birth certificate in Alcala de Henares is clearly forged: belongs to somebody named Carvantes", and "Miguel" was added later by a different hand on the margin. Have you seen it? ....10 years ago, no reputed scholars said Columbus was Catalan, but after hundreds of evidences provided by Jordi Bilbeny they are not sure anymore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sabater (talk • contribs) 23:28, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

categories

One of the article categories is 'people excommunicated from the Catholic Church'. The article however says nothing concerning this. Also, perhaps we should add the category 'Amputees' which I will right now. 212.205.213.42 07:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Sci-fi Hater?

similar to today's modern obsession among younger viewers with special effects films and science fiction movies.

Is this appropriate tone, and/or original research? Because what about Fantasy movies, if you're gonna hate, hate clearly :D
~ender 2007-12-30 18:59:PM MST

Vandalism

This page has been vandalised, and needs to be looked over User:Seanwarner86 (talk)

Ok. Brusegadi (talk) 10:23, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Happening again 2/10/2009. I noticed publication of Galatea was 1985 and was going to fix it but noticed a bunch more problems and not sure what to do about it. Pbackstrom (talk) 01:40, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Partial rewrite

Hello, does any one object to a partial or full rewrite of this article to make it more like the Spanish language version (which is a featured article in that language)? Let me know here, I will be adding this page to my watchlist. Brusegadi (talk) 10:23, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind that if your goal is to make this a featured article, English Wikipedia featured articles need citations, not just a list of references at the bottom, unlike on the Spanish Wikipedia. --Aqwis (talk – contributions) 07:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Cervantes's father was a surgeon, which at the time was something quite different from being a medical doctor, so I have accordingly made the change. Alloco1 (talk) 06:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

It's unknown when Cervantes was born

We only know he was baptized on 9 October 1547. It's supposed he was born on 29 September, because of the Saint of the day (Saint Michael), being this a tradition in Old Christian families and the rural world then. But, there's no documentation that supported this as a fact.--2deseptiembre (talk) 14:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

About the Jewish descent of Cervantes

There's no conclusive evidence of the descent of Cervantes. We don't know for sure if he was Old or New Christian. There is a lack of documentary evidence about that. To be compared with the case of Mateo Alemán, for instance, a contemporary of Cervantes.

Miguel's Mother

I have a question about Miguel's mother, who is listed as Leonor de Cortinas. Where is that information referenced from? My family tree records indicate that his mother was Maria de los Dolores Saavedra, which makes more sense since his name is NOT Miguel de Cervantes Cortinas, but rather Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra. 69.19.14.41 (talk) 00:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Johncito

Review of "Biography" section

good:It is well written, without great errors of grammar. It has sections which make sense and serve to organize the content (except for Birth and early life). It has nice pictures which have to do with the subject at hand. bad:It has a lot of unsourced information as well as a lack of attribution to information.

• The section called "Birth and early life" has little content to do with either subject. Family would be a better title for it.
• "It seems that, much like Dickens' father, Miguel's father was embargoed for debt." Is this OR or is this similarity between Cervantes and Dickens noted by any academic? I would guess that this is an insignificant similarity.
• "The reasons that forced [led] Cervantes to leave Castilla remain uncertain" even while it is certain that he was forced to leave?
• "[...] fleet of the Holy League (a coalition of the Pope, Spain, Venice, Republic of Genoa, Duchy of Savoy, the Knights of Malta and others under the command of John of Austria) that [...]" The pope is in no way equivalent to Spain, it would be proper to replace with the vatican, especially if he was not part of the battalion sent. I'd replace with "[...] fleet of the Holy League, a coalition arranged by Pope Pius V and under the command of John of Austria, that [...]"

"Cervantes refused to stay below, and begged to be allowed to take part in the battle" This passage recounting the heroic tale of how Cervantes got his wounds is neither sourced nor qualified - Even if Cervantes was the one to tell the tale of this exploit, the tale should not be presented as true but as told by someone - "Wikipedia is a tertiary source".

• "El trato de Argel (The Treaty of Algiers)" is that the correct translation? another translation available in wikipedia is "The trades --of Algiers" in Bagnio. One of these is probably incorrect. Note: an additional possible translation is "treatise on Alger"
• "he wrote it in order to satirize the romances of chivalry, [...] more than a century had been a fad with the general public." Not a fad, which now links to "bandwagon effect", not a fad which is by it's nature short-lived
• "The author stayed poor until 1605" should be a reference to a prior description of his living standards, but the reader of the article would have to go back to his parents' living standards, Cervantes' living standards are never noted up to this point and this comment of staying poor really stands out. Also because no comment is made as to whether any change at all happens to his circumstances - merely that he does not become a rich man because of it - a non sequitur.
• "which appeared posthumously in January, 1617." It was not an apparition, was it published or found/discovered by someone?

--Kiyarrlls-talk 12:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Permitted Vandalism

Already with promoting weird jewish agenda, Cervantes is as jewish as he is possible a half moro , stop your useless atacks on our great culture. Your people are clearly know how to manipulate , and if you think spanish are ignorant , i have to dissapoint you on that. Next time try to work on this propaganda machine better. Saludos. Another biased article : Spaniards of Jewish descent; aw this is just too amazing for me ! Looks like theres no true spanish people , they just don't exist.

Cervantes has been declared an Old Christian of "pure blood", a New Christian or "converso", a secularist, and a Christian humanist.

"New Christians were called so for their or their elder's recent conversion to the Christian faith, but were suspected of secretly practising Judaism, the religion from which they had supposedly converted. Jews had been expelled from Spain and all Spanish domains by the Catholic Kings in 1492, and those who stayed were forcibly baptised. Nevertheless, those Jews who remained as New Christians were always suspected of continuing their Jewish religious practices and therefore were constantly under the eye of the Inquisition. Jews were not allowed to own landed property and suffered significant legal discrimination. Thus, they could only earn a living by trade or skilled labor. Any gentleman who wanted to prosper in the social scale – or gain privileges (nobility was tax free) – had to prove his "purity of blood" – genealogical pedigree – which gave the status of Old Christian important economic, legal, and social consequences.

Proponents of the New Christian theory, established by Americo Castro, often suggest it to be on Cervantes' mother's side. The theory is almost exclusively supported by circumstantial evidence, but would "explain" some mysteries of Cervantes' life.[19] It has been supported by authors such as Anthony Cascardi and Canavaggio. Others, such as Claudio Sánchez-Albornoz (or Francisco Olmos Garcia, who considers it a "tired issue" and only supported by Americo Castro) reject the theory strongly.[20]

The second origin theory suggests Cervantes is of Old Christian stock. Most of the evidence for this is supported by documents, but does not help fill the gaps in some of the personality and life aspects and virtues of Cervantes as well as the New Christian theory does. However, it must be noted that the only surviving document addressing Cervantes' pedigree is the 1569 "Informacion de la Limpieza de Miguel de Cervantes, Estante en Roma" – which addresses Cervantes directly as an Old Christian." ;

yeah nice one ! Too bad the authors are not even spanish. Un ejemplo de la manipulacion judia ,señores. Asi empezo todo en Alemania , provocando el personal entremezclando y mentiendo historias , despues se quejan que los discriminamos , y ellos mientras se rien de nuestra historia.Sasukowazokovo 20:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasukowazokovo (talk • contribs)

Amputated Arm?

I am no authority but it surprised me to read that his arm was amputated during his military service. I was under the impression that his left hand was maimed and of uncertain use, but I had never heard that he lost the whole arm. Forgive my ignorance, I just wanted to raise the question.Sallypursell (talk) 07:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Marriage

The article claims he married his wife 4 years before he was born. This doesn't seem likely... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.190.146.215 (talk) 09:56, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

In self-defence

I've rephrased the following to avoid mentioning "in self-defence":

In self-defence Cervantes produced his own continuation, or Second Part, of Don Quixote, which made its appearance in 1615. (Nota Bene: Cervantes had already promised the publication of a second part of Don Quixote in 1613 in the foreword to the Novelas Ejemplares, a year before the publication of Avellanda's book. It is therefore anachronistic to say that he produced his continuation "in self-defence".)

If there is a dispute, it should be settled here, not in the article. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)