Talk:Mers people

The Mair / Meds from the online book "The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians. The Muhammadan Period by Sir H. M. Elliot, Edited by John Dowson, London Trubner Company 1867–1877"

Collapse long series of copy/pastes from unreliable Raj source and caste-affiliated website. - Sitush (talk) 07:42, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

The Meds - 519 From Online Book: The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians. The Muhammadan Period Sir H. M. Elliot Edited by John Dowson http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=152 Chapter on "The Meds" from the book (available online): "The History of India as told by its own Historians. The Muhammadan Period", by Sir H. M. Elliot, Edited by John Dowson; London, Trubner Company; 1867–1877 Chapter on "The Meds" From the online version of this historical book, check all three pages of this chapter & Also see page: NOTE (C.).—ETHNOLOGICAL. Native Opinions on the Aborigines of Sind. FROM ONLINE RESOURCE: The Packard Humanities Institute Persian Texts in Translation • Author List • Title List Questions and comments can be directed to persian@packhum.org http://persian.packhum.org/persian/intro.html;jsessionid=E9E8FD18375CD7270DF501B7E980AE9D http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp http://persian.packhum.org/persian/ff?file=works The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians. The Muhammadan Period Sir H. M. Elliot, Edited by John Dowson Volume I: Introduction Volume II: To the Year A.D. 1260 Volume III: To the Year A.D. 1398 Volume IV: To the Year A.D. 1450 Volume V: End of the Afghan Dynasty and the First Thirty-Eight Years of the Reign of Akbar Volume VI: Akbar and Jahangir Volume VII: From Shah-Jahan to the Early Years of the Reign of Muhammad Shah Volume VIII: To End of the Muhammadan Empire in India London Trubner Company 1867–1877 http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&file=80201010&ct=0 Volume I:Introduction CONTENTS. Preliminary Note v Editor's Preface vii Sir Henry Elliot's Original Preface xv Notice of Sir Henry M. Elliot xxviii Addenda et Corrigenda xxx EARLY ARAB GEOGRAPHERS. PAGE I. The Merchant Sulaimán and Abú Zaid 1 II. Ibn Khurdádba 12 III. Al Mas'údí 18 IV. Al Istakhrí 26 V. Ibn Haukal (Ashkálu-l Bilád) 31 VI. Súru-l Buldán 41 VII. Rashídu-d Dín, from Al Bírúní 42 VIII. Al Idrísí 74 IX. Al Kazwíní 94 HISTORIANS OF SIND. I. Mujmalu-t Tawáríkh 100 II. Futúhu-l Buldán, of Biládurí 113 III. Chach-náma 131 IV. Táríkhu-s Sind, of Mír Ma'súm 212 V. Táríkh-i Táhirí 253 VI. Beg-Lár-náma 289 VII. Tarkhán-náma or Arghún-náma 300 VIII. Tuhfatu-l Kirám 327 APPENDIX. PAGE NOTE (A).—GEOGRAPHICAL 353 KINGDOMS. The Balhará 354 Juzr or Jurz 358 Táfan 360 Rahma, Ruhmî 361 Káshbín 361 CITIES AND TOWNS. Agham—The Lohánas 362 Alor 363 Amhal, Fámhal, Mámhal 363 Armá-bel 364 Askalanda 365 Bániya, Bátiya 367 Bhambúr 368 Bráhmanábád, Mansúra, Mahfúza 369 Debal, Karáchí, Thatta, and Láhorí-bandar 374 Hála-kandi, the Hellenes, Pindus 379 Jandrúd 380 Kaikánán, Kaikán, Kákars 381 Kajuráha 383 Kállarí, Annarí, and Ballarí 384 Kandábel, Túrán, Budha, Baizá 385 Kannazbúr 389 Mandal, Kíraj 390 Manjábarí 391 Minnagara 392 Narána 393 Nírún, Sákúra, Jarak 396 Sadusán 401 Sámúí, Tughlikábád, Kalá-kot 401 Sindán, Subára, Saimúr 402 Túr, Muhatampur, Dirak, Vijeh-kot 403 NOTE (B).—HISTORICAL. 405 The Ráí Dynasty 405 The Bráhman Dynasty 409 The Advances of the Arabs towards Sind 414 The Progress of the Arabs in Sind 434 Sind under the Arabs 460 The Súmra Dynasty 483 The Samma Dynasty 494 The Arghún Dynasty 497 The Tarkhán Dynasty 498 Sháh Beg's Capture of Thatta 500 The Death of Sháh Beg Arghún 502 NOTE (C).—ETHNOLOGICAL. Native Opinions on the Aborigines of Sind 503 Buddhists in Sind 504 The Jats 507 The Kerks 508 The Meds 519 The Wairsí and Sodha Tribes 531 NOTE (D).—MISCELLANEOUS. The Terrors of the Moghal Helmet 532 Dismounting for Combat 535 Colligation in Fighting 537 Barge, an Arabic Word 539 http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=0 The Meds - 519 http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=152 Chapter on "The Meds" from the book (available online): "The History of India as told by its own Historians. The Muhammadan Period", by Sir H. M. Elliot, Edited by John Dowson; London, Trubner Company; 1867–1877 Chapter on "The Meds" From the online version of this historical book, check all three pages of this chapter & Also see page: NOTE (C.).—ETHNOLOGICAL. Native Opinions on the Aborigines of Sind. "Qani'" Tattavi, 'Ali Sir, Mir The Meds. http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=152 We find the Meds frequently mentioned by the Arab authors on Sind, and, together with their rivals the Jats, they may be considered the oldest occupants of that province, who, in their names as well as persons, have survived to our own times. The first account we have of them is in the Mujmalu-t Tawáríkh, That work mentions that the Jats and the Meds are reputed to be descendants of Ham, the son of Noah, and that they occupied the banks of the Indus, in the province of Sind. The Meds, who devoted themselves to a pastoral life, used to invade the territories of the Jats, putting them to great distress, and compelling them to take up their abode on the opposite side of the river; but, subsequently, the Jats, being accustomed to the use of boats, crossed over and defeated the Meds, taking several prisoners and plundering their country. At last these two tribes, seeing the inutility of protracting their contests any longer, agreed to send a deputation to Duryodhana, the king of Hastinápur, begging him to nominate a king to rule over them. Duryodhana accordingly nominated his sister Dassal (Duh-sálá), the wife of Jayadratha, who exercised the functions of government with great wisdom and moderation. The families and adherents of 30,000 Bráhmans, who were collected from all parts of Hindústán, were sent by Duryodhana to her court, and from that time Sind became flourishing and populous, and many cities were founded. The Jats and the Meds had separate tracts of land assigned to them, and were governed by chiefs of their own election. The queen and Jayadratha made the city of 'Askaland their capital; the same place, apparently, which is called in a subsequent passage 'Askaland-úsa, perhaps the Úchh of later times, as has been shown in another Note of this Appendix (p. 365). Jayadratha was killed in the fatal field of Thanesar, and his faithful wife ascended the funeral pile, after their reign had continued for more than twenty years. On the same field was extinguished the dynasty called after the name of Bharata, he being the most celebrated ancestor of Dhritaráshtra, the father of Duryodhana and the Kurus. On the transfer of the empire to the Pándavas, Yudhish-thira conferred Sind upon Sanjwára, the son of Jayadratha and Dassal (Duhsála), and from him Hál was descended (supra, p. 103). As the Great War, in which these heroes enacted a conspicuous part, has been supposed, on astronomical grounds, to have taken place during the twelfth century B.C.,* we must assign an equal antiquity to their contemporaries the Meds of Sind, if we put faith in this narrative; but as this early settlement is not, in Lassen's opinion, opposed to probability in the case of the Jats, we need not withhold our faith in its correctness with respect to the Meds. Indeed, admitting that the ‘Jartikas’ of the Mahá-bhárata and the Puránas represent the Jats, we cannot but consider the ‘Madras’ as representing the Meds—confirming thereby the antiquity and synchronism of these two races on the banks of the Indus.* During the period of Arab occupation, Muhammad Kásim is represented as making peace with the Meds of Suráshtra, “seafarers and pirates, with whom the men of Basra were then at war.” This gives a great extent to their dominion at that period towards the south-east. In the time of Mu'tasim Bi-llah, 'Amrán, the Barmekide, governor of Sind, directed an expedition against the Meds, in which he killed three thousand of them, and constructed an embankment, which he called the Meds' embankment, probably for the purpose of depriving them of the means of irrigation, as was done so effectually in 1762 and 1802 at Mora and Ali Bandar, when the Sindians ruined the prosperity of north-western Kachh. The word Sakar, ‘embankment,’ is preserved in the town of that name opposite to Rorí, where, however, the mound is a natural limestone formation of about one hundred feet high, and not an artificial causeway.* Nevertheless, we might, if we could be sure that any Meds were then on the western side of the Indus, pronounce this to be the identical locality; for certainly, in Biládurí (supra p. 128), the whole transaction seems to be closely connected with 'Amrán's proceedings against Kandábel and the Jats on the Aral river, not far from Sakar, insomuch that, immediately after settling affairs with them he returns to attack the Meds, having the chief of the Jats in his company. But, as on the occasion of this second attack, he dug a canal from the sea to their lake, rendering their water salt and nauseous, there can be no question of this scene, at least, being in the southeastern portion of the province, where they were settled in the greatest numbers; and here, therefore, we must also look for the embankment raised in the first incursion. They are said to have been attacked by 'Amrán from several different directions, and were thus doubtless reduced to great extremities. During the reign of the same Khalif, we find an Arab chieftain, Muhammad bin Fazl, who had taken possession of Sindán, in the Abrása district of Kachh, attacking the Meds with a squadron of seventy vessels;* on which occasion he took Málí, of which the position may be identified with Mália on the Machú. This powerful armament seems to have been directed against the sea-board of the tract invaded by 'Amrán, now occupied by the Ran of Kachh; where Vígogad, Vingar, and Ballyárí, on the northern, and Phang-warrí, Nerona, Bitáro, etc., on the southern shore, are all known, both by concurrent native tradition, as well as by independent European observation, to have been once washed by the sea. All these various expeditions, however, had but little permanent effect in reducing the power of the Meds, for Mas'údí informs us that, when he visited Sind, the inhabitants of Mansúra were obliged continually to protect themselves against their aggressions.* Ibn Haukal notices them under the name of Mand (p. 38), and though, without the diacritical point, the word might be read Med, yet as all the MSS., few as they are, concur in this reading, it must be retained. He describes them as dwelling on the bank of the Indus from the borders of Multán to the sea, and in the desert between that river and Fámhal, the frontier town of Hind. They had many stations which they occupied as pasture grounds, and formed a very large population, unconverted to the faith. What Abú-l Fidá says of them is taken from this passage, and we do not read of them in any subsequent author.* Hence we might suppose that the tribe is entirely extinct, and have left no memorial of their existence, except the passages above quoted. M. Reinaud, indeed, observes that he finds it impossible to apply the name of Med or Mand, to any known population, and therefore conceives that the denomination is disfigured. But he is mistaken in this supposition, for the tribe of Med still exists, both to the east and the west of the Indus;* and those on the coast, being unable now to practice piracy after the mode of their ancestors, devote themselves to the more tranquil pursuit of fishing. To the east, we find them roving on the borders of Sind and Jodhpúr, the site of their occupation during the Arab period; and to the west, they are found in the little ports of Makrán, from Súnmíání to Charbar, divided into the clans of Gazbúr, Hormárí, Jellar-záí, and Chelmar-záí. It is possible that the Meds, or some offshoot of that stock, may have been designated as Mand, for that syllable enters into the name of several native tribes and places existing to this day: as the Mand-ar, the Mand-hor, the Mind-hro, besides the Bulúch tribe of Mond-rání, as well as the ancient towns of Mand-rá and Mand-ropat, in Cháchagám, to the east of the Gúní, Mand-rása to the north of the Makalí hills, and Mund-ra and other similar names in Kachh. "Qani'" Tattavi, 'Ali Sir, Mir http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=152 "Qani'" Tattavi, 'Ali Sir, Mir That the Mers of the Árávalí mountains and Káthíwár are descendants of the same family, is also not beyond the bounds of probability. The native pronunciation, especially in the western and north-western provinces of Hindústan, tends so much to an intermixture of the cerebral letters r and d,—the written character, indeed, being the same in both, and the diacritical marks being a mere modern innovation—that Mer and Med may be identical: and the addition of the aspirate, which sometimes makes the former into Mher, or, as we commonly write it Mhair, offers still no argument against identity, for that also is an optional excrescence, especially in the names of peoples and families. For the same reason, the connection of the Mahr of Úbáro, and other tracts in the Upper Sind, where they are reckoned by their neighbours as the aboriginal inhabitants of the country between Bhakkar and Baháwalpúr, is equally plausible.* Tod pronounces the Mers to be of Bhattí origin, and derives their name from Meru, “a mountain.” But at the same time that he pronounces them to be Bhattís, he says they are a branch of the Mína, or Maina, one of the aboriginal races of India. These statements are obviously incompatible, and the Bhattí hypothesis must be rejected. During the whole period of their known history, they have been conspicuous for their lawless and predatory habits, from the time when four thousand Mer archers defended their passes against Pirthí-Ráj,* down to A.D. 1821, when their excesses compelled the British government to attack them in their fastnesses, and reduce them to complete obedience. Since which period, it is gratifying to observe that they have emerged from their barbarism, and, under the judicious management of European officers, have learnt to cultivate the arts of peace, and set a notable example of industry to the surrounding tribes. Taking into consideration, therefore, the fact that the Mers of the Árávalí are but little advanced beyond the tract where the Meds are known, a thousand years ago, to have formed a numerous and thriving population; that their brethren, the Mínas, can themselves be traced in their original seats to the banks of the Indus; that Káthíwár, or the Saurashtran peninsula, was the very nursery of the piractical expeditions for which the Meds were about the same period celeberated and feared, and where Mers still reside, we may conclude that to declare them identical, is doing no great force to reason and probability.* The simple permutation of a letter—not unnaturally forced, but based upon a law of common observance—introduces us to a new connexion of considerable interest; for we may make bold to claim, as an ancient representative of this race, Meris, or Moeris, the king of Pattala, who, on the approach of Alexander, deserted his capital, and fled to the mountains. The site of this town, at the head of the Delta of the Indus, answers well to the position which we may presume the chief of the Meds to have occupied at that period; and, that the name was not personal, but derived from his tribe, we may be satisfied, from the common practice of Alexander's historians, as exemplified in the instances of Abisares, Porus, Sambus, Musicanus, Assacanus, and Taxiles, who have these names severally attributed to them from the nations, countries, or towns over which they ruled. Dr. Vincent, in admitting, as the etymon of Moeris, the Arabic words Mír Rais, “the ruling chief,” has suffered his too easy credulity to be played upon by an ambitious young orientalist. Bohlen has attempted to trace in the name of Moeris a corruption of Mahárájá, “the great king,” in which he is followed by Ritter; but, independent of the fact that his kingdom was circumscribed within very narrow limits, he is expressly noticed by Arrian, under the humble title of <greek>, which invariably implies subordination, and not supremacy.* A more probable, but still unlikely, origin has been suggested, from the tribe of Maurya;* but they were far away in the east, remote from Sind, so that altogether locality and verbal resemblance are most favourable to the present hypothesis, that Meris is a Grecised form for the “chief of the Mers.” We may even extend our views to a still more remote period, and indulge in speculations whether this tribe may not originally have been a colony of Medes. There is nothing in the distance of the migration which would militate against this supposition, for Hero-dotus mentions the Sigynnæ, as a colony of the Medes settled beyond the Danube:—“How they can have been a colony of the Medes,” he observes, “I cannot comprehend; but anything may happen in course of time.”* The Medians are also said to have accompanied the expedition of Hercules, when he crossed over from Spain into Africa.* The Sauromatæ were Median colonists beyond the Tanais, or Don.* The Matienoi, or Matienes,* the Kharimatai,* and possibly the Mares,* were Caucasian colonists from Media, preserving in their names the national appellation of Mata or Madia. They may either have been transplanted to the banks of the Indus when the Medo-Persian empire extended so far to the eastward; or they may have migrated thither at some indefinitely early period; or they may have sought an asylum there upon the occupation of their country by the Scythians; or during the persecution of the Magi, who consituted one of the six tribes of Medes, just as the Pársís did in Guzerát, at a later period and on similar occasion. It is worthy of remark that Ibn Haukal places the Budhas, or Budhyas, in the same category with the Mand, representing them as comprising several tribes to the west of the Indus. Now, the Budii were also one of the six Median tribes, and the juxtaposition of these two names in the province of Sind should not escape notice, for they also may have formed a body of similar emigrants.* All arguments against the probability of such dispersions stand self-confuted, when we consider that Sindians were on the Euxine;* and that, besides the familiar instances of Samaritans and Jews under the Assyrians, we read over and over again in Persian history, of the deportations of entire tribes, expressly termed <greek> by Herodotus.* Thus we have the removal of Pæo-nians to Phrygia,* of Barcæans from Africa to Bactria,* of Milesians to Ampe, near the Tigris,* of Egyptians to Susa,* of Eretrians from Eubœa to Ardericca,* and to Gordyene,* of Antiochians to Mahúza,* and others which it would be tedious to specify. There is another curious coincidence worthy of notice. It is well known, that from below the junction of the Panjáb rivers down to Sihwán, the Indus takes the name of Sar, Siro, or Sira, and from below Haidarábád to the sea, that of Lár. It is more correct, but unusual, to add an intermediate division, called Wicholo, “central,” representing the district lying immediately around Haidarábád, just as on the Nile, the Wustání, “midlands,” of the Arabs represented the tract between Upper and Lower Egypt.* Sir A. Burnes says that Sir and Lár are two Bulúch words for “north” and “south.” But the first is a Slavonic word also, which Gatterer and Niebuhr tell us is retained in Sauro-matæ, signifying “northern” Medes. There were also a province of Siracene, and a tribe of Siraceni, and other similar names north of the Caucasus.* The Slavonic and Persian show a great similarity: thus, spaco signifies “a bitch” in both, and the same with the first syllable of Sauromatæ, or Sar-matæ. * Hence Sar for the “northern” Indus, was more probably a remnant of Median than Bulúch emigration, though the Persian element could be accounted for, even on the latter supposition, seeing what a strong tincture the Bulúchí language retains of its original Íránian connection.* "Qani'" Tattavi, 'Ali Sir, Mir http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=153 "Qani'" Tattavi, 'Ali Sir, Mir Moreover, amongst the several tribes of Kshatriyas, who, having neglected to observe the holy customs, and to visit the Bráhmans, became so degenerate that they were expelled their caste, and regarded as “Dasyus,” or robber tribes, Manu enumerates the “Pah-lavas.” * “They are,” continues the holy legislator, “Dasyus, whether they speak the language of Mlechchhas, or that of Áryas.” Árya in Sanskrit, airya in Zend, means “noble,” “sacred,” “venerable;” hence a portion of Upper India is called Áryavarta, “the holy land,” or “country of the Áryas.” The Medes being also of the same original stock, were universally called Arii. The Áryas of Manu, therefore, are not necessarily, as some interpret, only degenerate natives, but may likewise have been Medes occupying the valley of the Indus. It is probable that a still earlier, and more degenerate branch of the same family may be spoken of under the name of “Meda,” in the code of Manu, “who must live without the town, and maintain themselves by slaying beasts of the forest.” Allusion seems here to be made to the Mers of the Árávalí.* These indications need not be enlarged on further in this place. Many will, of course, look upon them as fanciful and extravagant. Others, who feel so disposed, must pursue the investigation for themselves; for it is foreign to the main design of this Note, which has merely been to show that we have the Meds of the Arabs retaining their own name to this day, as well as probably under a slightly varied form, in and around the original seats of their occupation. That object has, it is hoped, been accomplished satisfactorily, and with regard to all extraneous matter, to use the words of Cicero, sequimur probabilia, nec ultrà quam id, quod verisimile occurrerit, pro-gredi possumus, et refellere sine pertinaciâ et refelli sine iracundiâ parati sumus.* [General Cuuningham, in his Report for 1863-64, says:—“The Meds or Mands are almost certainly the representatives of the Man-drueni , who lived on the Mandrus river, to the south of the Oxus; and as their name is found in the Panjáb from the beginning of the Christian era downwards, and in none before that time, I conclude that they must have accompanied their neighbours, the Iatii, or Játs, on their forced migrations to Ariana and India. In the classical writers, the name is found as Medi and Mandueni, and in the Muhammadan writers, as Med and Mand.” To show that these two spellings are but natural modes of pronunciation of the same name, the General notices the various ways in which the name of a village on the Jhelam is spelt in different maps and books— Meriala, Mandiali, Mámriála, Mandyála, Mariála, and Merali.] [“The earliest notice of the Meds is by Virgil, who calls the Jhelam Medus Hydaspes. The epithet is explained by the statement of Vibius Sequester, which makes the Hydaspes flow “past the city of Media.” Now this is clearly the same place as Ptolemy's Euthy-media , or Sagala, which was either on or near the same river, and above Bukephala. Lastly, in the Peutingerian Tables, the country on the Hydaspes, for some distance below Alexandria Bucefalos, is called Media. Here then we have evidence that the Medi, or Meds, were in the Panjáb as early at least as the time of Virgil, in B.C. 40 to 30, and as we know that they were not one of the five tribes of Yuchi, or Tochari, whose names are given by the Chinese writers, it may be inferred, with tolerable certainty, that they must have belonged to the great horde of Sus, or Abars, who entered India about B.C. 126, and gave their name to the province of Indo-Scythia.” [As the date of the Peutingerian Table is not later than A.D. 250, we have a break of upwards of four centuries before we reach the earliest notices of the Muhammadan writers. In these we find the Meds or Mands firmly established in Sindh, along with their ancient rivals the Játs, both of whom are said to be the descendants of Ham, the son of Noah. Rashíd-ud dín further states that they were in Sindh at the time of the Mahá-bhárata, but this is amply refuted by the native histories of the province, which omit both names from the list of aborigines of Sindh. Ibn Haukal describes the Mands of his time (about A.D. 977), as occupying the banks of the Indus from Multan to the sea, and to the desert between Makrán and Famhal. Masudi, who visited India in A.D. 915-16, calls them Mind, and states that they were a race of Sindh, who were at constant war with the people of Mansura. These notices are sufficient to show, that at some time previous to the first appearance of the Muhammadans, the Meds must have been forced to migrate from the Upper Panjáb to Sindh. There they have since remained, as there can be no doubt that they are now represented by the Mers of the Árávalí Range to the east of the Indus, of Káthiáwar to the south, and of Biluchistán to the west.” [“The name of Mer, or Mand, is still found in many parts of the Punjáb, as in Meror of the Bari and Rechna Doabs, in Mera, Mandra, and Mandanpur of the Sind Ságar Doab, and in Mandali, of Multan. Mera, which is ten miles to the west of Kalar Kahár, is certainly as old as the beginning of the Christian era, as it possesses an Arian Pali inscription, fixed in the side of a square well. The Mers would seem also to have occupied Lahore, as Abú Ríhán states that the capital of Loháwar was named Medhukur or Mandhukur.* This place is said to have been on the east bank of the Ravi, and, if so, it was most probably Lahore itself, under a new name. There is an old place called Mandhyawála, on the west bank of the Ravi, and only twelve miles to the south-west of Lahore, which may possibly be the Mandhukur of Abu Ríhán. But the old mound of Mirathira, in the Gugera district, in which figures of Buddha and moulded bricks have been discovered by the railway cuttings, is a more likely place. This frequent occurrence of the name in so many parts of the Panjáb, and always attached to old places, as in Mera, Mandra, and Meriali, of the Sindh Ságar Doab, and in Med-hukur or Mandhukur, the capital of Loháwar, offers the strongest confirmation of the conclusion which I have already derived from the notices of the classical authors, that the Meds or Mers were once the dominant race in the Panjáb. The special location of the Medi on the Hydaspes by classical writers of the first century of the Christian era, the evident antiquity of Mera, Meriali, and other places which still bear the name, and the admitted foreign origin of their modern representatives, the Mers, all point to the same conclusion, that the Medi, or Meds, were the first Indo-Scythian conquerors of the Panjáb.” [* * * * “About this time (30 to 20 B.C.) the Meds may be supposed to have retired towards the south, until they finally established themselves in Upper Sindh, and gave their name to their new capital of Minnagara. As this could scarcely have been effected with the consent of the former occupants of Upper Sindh, whom I suppose to have been the Iatii, or Jats, I would refer to this period as the beginning of that continued rivalry, which the historian Rashídu-d dín attributes to the Jats and Meds.* To this same cause I would also refer the statement of the Erythræan Periplus, that about A.D. 100, the rulers of Minnagara were rival Parthians, who were mutually expelling each other.”] "Qani'" Tattavi, 'Ali Sir, Mir http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=154 NOTE (C.).—ETHNOLOGICAL. Native Opinions on the Aborigines of Sind. The names, which are given in the Beg-Lár-náma (p. 292) as three:—“Bína, Ták, Nabúmiya,” amount to four in the Tuhfatu-l Kirám (MS. p. 4)—“Banya, Tánk, Múmíd, and Mahmír.” They are given from Sindian authorities by Lieut. Postans, in the Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal (No. cxi. 1841, p. 184), as “Nubeteh, Tak, and Moomeed;” and again, by the same author (No. clviii. 1845, p. 78), as “Nubuja, Jak, and Momid.” It would be a matter of great interest to restore these tribes correctly, and ascertain the course of their migrations. I can trace the mention of them to no earlier authority than the Beg-Lár-náma. All their names, except one, defy positive identification, and we may put the list of the Vishnu Purána and the Asiatic Researches through all kinds of contortions, without meeting any race that will yield a sufficient resemblance for our adoption. That single exception is “Ták,” about which there can be no doubt. “Bína” may possibly represent “Mína,” the probable founders of the celebrated Minagara, and the present occupants of the upper Árávalí range. Or if “Baniya” be the correct reading, then the designation may have been applied to them, as being foresters. In “Múmíd” we may perhaps have the “Med” of the Arabs; and in the “Mahmír,” we may chance to have the representatives of the “Mhairs,” or “Mairs” of Rájpútána, if, indeed, they differ from the Med. We can venture upon nothing beyond these dubious conjectures. That we should find the “Ták” in Sind at an early period, is by no means improbable, and if the statement rested on somewhat better, or more ancient, authority than the Beg-Lár-náma, it might be assumed as an undoubted fact, with some degree of confidence. Tod exalts the Táks to a high and important rank amongst the tribes which emigrated from Scythia to India, making them the same as the Takshak, Nágabansí, or serpent-race, who acted a conspicuous part in the legendary annals of ancient India. His speculations, some of which are fanciful, and some probable, may be found in the passages noted below.* One thing is certain that the Táks were progenitors of the Musulmán kings of Guzerát, before that province was absorbed into the empire of Akbar. Tod observes, that with the apostacy of the Ták, when Wajíhu-l Mulk was converted, and became the founder of the Muhammadan dynasty of Guzerát, the name appears to have been obliterated from the tribes of Rájasthán, and that his search had not discovered one of that race now existing; but there are Táks amongst the Bhangís, who, though of spurious descent, have evidently preserved the name. There are also Tánk Rájpúts in the central Doáb and lower Rohil-khand, whose privileges of intermarriage show them to be of high lineage; and there is a tribe of nearly similar name existing near Jambhú, not far from their ancient capital Taksha-sila, or Taxila; of which the position is most probably to be sought between Manik-yála and the Suán River, notwithstanding some plausible and ingenious objections which have been raised against that opinion.* http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=147 Buddhists in Sind. http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=148 The Jats. http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=149 The Kerks. http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=150 http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=151 Above pages are from the now online book: The History of India, as Told by Its Own Historians. The Muhammadan Period Sir H. M. Elliot Edited by John Dowson The above book / material was found discussed on the forum below : http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:V6clfoctB0cJ:www.jattworld.com/portal/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php%3Ftopic_id%3D5186%26forum%3D1%26viewmode%3Dflat%26order%3D1+mair+rajputs+ajmer&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=37 http://www.jattworld.com/portal/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5186&forum=1&viewmode=flat&order=1 Re: IS RANA A JATT SURNAME Mers are certainly representative of ancient Med tribe . They were Scythian and perhaps earliest Aryans in this subcontinent.Azeri an Iranian tribe is also related to Meds as per DNA studies who speak a language similar to avestan . I guess Sarmatian are closely related to Meds.Again since Khurds are related to sarmatian they in turn look brothers of Mers as well .This fact was also observed by Arabian authors who visited both kurds and Mers in earlier times .Movement of Mers from indo- iranian boarders to Croatia and Serbia are well recorded.Both Jats and Mers had common origin and had been adversary and allies many times in power struggle. I feel Scythian Mers and Scythian Jats differed in their religious faiths where Mers are predominantly Vedic and Sun worshipper Jats mostly prefered Fertility cult of Shiva in initial period. I feel Rajputs has a majority Mer and Gujjar ancestry and relation of Rajput and Mers represent relation between two groups of same tribe where one retained the original identity and other adopted a later identity. I don't know about joint movement of Meds and gujjar (georgian )(gurgian)but that point can clear a lot of confusion in Indian history if found true. [ Edited by N_SINGH on 2007/7/9 2:10 ] N_SINGH Senior Member Joined: 2006/2/4 Posts: 561 From: http://www.jattworld.com/portal/userinfo.php?uid=2681 Re: IS RANA A JATT SURNAME Well this depends on their location and more recent history, Mers have been around a lot longer then the rajput term was given to tribes. The term rajput is a recent one. Mahers of Punjab do call them selves rajputs although in the past 2 hundred years have been sonnars. But mahers of madya pardehs n some mer tribes of rajesthan cannot be called rajputs or even kshtriya becouse they married into lower casts. So not all mers call them selves rajput. but Mahers of katyiar western Gujarat called them selves rajputs becouse of their constant participation in war. They are counted as one of the 36 clans of rajputs. But then formed their own identity and culture seprate from other rajput tribes. Like a Mer can only marry a Mer and they have different customs from other rajput tribes. A lot of Mers do not even call them selves rajput because they think that the Mer history is longer and more greater then just the rajput history. Here are the sub divisions of rajput Mers, these mers are only present in western Gujarat because these are the only Mers that have been a fighting race even up until recent times. The Rajput Mer Lineages • Keshwala (Suryavanshi) o Subdivisions: Antrolia & Erda • Sisodia (Suryavanshi) o Subdivisions: Modhavadia, Godhania, Khastriya, Ranavaya, Kuchadia & Haddiya • Odedra/Sumra/Soomro/Sumera (Yaduvanshi) o Subdivisions: Visana • Rajshakha (Suryavanshi) o Subdivisions: Khunti, Karavadra, Gorania Sundavadra, Bokhiriya, Selor, Selan & Jethwa • Parmar (Agnivanshi) o Subdivisions: Mahiyaria, Balega, Mundera, Pata & Gorsera • Jadeja (Yaduvanshi) o Subdivisions: Kadcha, Tarkhala, Ratia & Kadegia • Vala (Suryavanshi) • Chauhan (Agnivanshi) o Subdivisions: Gareja • Vadher (Suryavanshi) o Subdivisions: Vadar & Bajigiya • Chavda (Chandravanshi) o Subdividions: Bhatti, Bhutiya & Bhadia) • Chudasama (Yaduvanshi) • Solanki (Agnivanshi) [ Edited by Rajput-Maher on 2007/7/8 9:31 ] Rajput-Maher Regular Member Joined: 2006/4/25 Posts: 249 From: http://www.jattworld.com/portal/userinfo.php?uid=3102 Re: IS RANA A JATT SURNAME Hi All, More info on the Mers As previously mentioned in my post & based upon the research I have carried out the word Mer/Mher/Mair/Mhair/Maher/Meher/Mihir/Mahar/Mar all these words refer to same people, the theory is that it varies depending on the region for which this aboriginal tribe is found example Punjab, Madhya Pradesh, Sindh, Rajasthan or Kathiawar (West Saurahtra). We by now know that the ancestors of the Mers are indeed the great warriors known as the Meds/Mands/Medas/Medes/Mind and the Median Empire was embraced as one of the most powerful kingdoms ever. The Mers/Meds a Aryan Race (Indo - European) The word “Aryan” originated in Iran, since the first Persian,Med and Parth tribes moved to the warmer regions, which were located south of Caucasia. Those tribes (Persians,Meds and Parths) call themselves Aryans and therefore they named the region "ARYANA=Land of Aryans, the country today known as Iran has its name based upon. Because of similarities in language between several languages, historians call people of several nations the so called "Indo-Europeans” or “Aryans". The Mers/Med settlements The ancestors of Mers the Meds entered the Indian through the North-west continent (today known as west Punjab) together with Georgians of Georgia around B.C. 126. (Source: Hoskyn, 1922 pp. 22). The Georgians were later known as Gurjars. One specific report indicated that these people entered India through Baluchistan via Iran (Nadvi 1955, p73-75) At this time western India was under the sovereignty of the Guptas. The Kushans were out of the picture long before the Guptas came into power. It seems that the king of the Gupta dynasty in the northwest province drove away the migrant invaders i.e. the Meds and the Gurjars, to the south. The southern region of the Indus valley in the north was governed by the Jats, who flooded the country in the same way some three centuries earlier. The Jats opposed these foreigners, who eventually overcame them. Thus, the Meds settled to the east of the Indus River, and the Gurjars went further south, It is reported that of the two tribes the Meds lated called Mers or Mahers predominated in power and influence. (Hoskyn, 1922, p. 115-117, and Elliot, Ibid., p. 519.) So basically the ancestors of the tribe Mers the Meds entered India through the in those days Pujab Sindh region and continued further south into Gujarat leaving settlements in Ajmer (from the great Mer Sardar Ajo), Jesalmer (from the great Mer Sardar Jaslo), Badmer (from the great Mer Sardar Bad), Komalmer (from the great Mer Sardar Komal) & the Marwar region (Mhairwara region belonging to partially to Udaipur and also Jodhpur). They seemed to have settled down in the Kathiwar region and are today to be found in villages around Porbandar known as the Mahers of Kathiawar. -- Suryavanshi-Rajput Quite Regular Joined: 2005/8/30 Posts: 108 From: http://www.jattworld.com/portal/userinfo.php?uid=1917 Re: IS RANA A JATT SURNAME Mahers/Mers are basically the descendents of the meds/medes who were of Scythian/Median origin who inhabited areas of Punjabi, sindh, Gujarat. And cities like Merwar and ajmer you can see the mer influence on these cites as their names are derived from the Mer tribe. However their social standing changed depending on the areas they lived and their situations. Maher rajputs of Punjab became mainly sonnars, Mers of madya pardesh become exogamouse (married into) lower caste tribes and were looked down apon. However the Mers of katyiwar have always been a martial race. They were warriors for the jethwas rana and conquered many lands. And also mixed heavily with other rajput gotras to create a uniqe fighting force at some point in history. below is some information about the original Mers or meds As the date of the Peutingerian Table is not later than A.D. 250, we have a break of upwards of four centuries before we reach the earliest notices of the Muhammadan writers. In these we find the Meds or Mands firmly established in Sindh, along with their ancient rivals the Játs, both of whom are said to be the descendants of Ham, the son of Noah. Rashíd-ud dín further states that they were in Sindh at the time of the Mahá-bhárata, but this is amply refuted by the native histories of the province, which omit both names from the list of aborigines of Sindh. Ibn Haukal describes the Mands of his time (about A.D. 977), as occupying the banks of the Indus from Multan to the sea, and to the desert between Makrán and Famhal. Masudi, who visited India in A.D. 915-16, calls them Mind, and states that they were a race of Sindh, who were at constant war with the people of Mansura. These notices are sufficient to show, that at some time previous to the first appearance of the Muhammadans, the Meds must have been forced to migrate from the Upper Panjáb to Sindh. There they have since remained, as there can be no doubt that they are now represented by the Mers of the Árávalí Range to the east of the Indus, of Káthiáwar to the south, and of Biluchistán to the west.” [“The name of Mer, or Mand, is still found in many parts of the Punjáb, as in Meror of the Bari and Rechna Doabs, in Mera, Mandra, and Mandanpur of the Sind Ságar Doab, and in Mandali, of Multan. Mera, which is ten miles to the west of Kalar Kahár, is certainly as old as the beginning of the Christian era, as it possesses an Arian Pali inscription, fixed in the side of a square well. The Mers would seem also to have occupied Lahore, as Abú Ríhán states that the capital of Loháwar was named Medhukur or Mandhukur.* This place is said to have been on the east bank of the Ravi, and, if so, it was most probably Lahore itself, under a new name. There is an old place called Mandhyawála, on the west bank of the Ravi, and only twelve miles to the south-west of Lahore, which may possibly be the Mandhukur of Abu Ríhán. But the old mound of Mirathira, in the Gugera district, in which figures of Buddha and moulded bricks have been discovered by the railway cuttings, is a more likely place. This frequent occurrence of the name in so many parts of the Panjáb, and always attached to old places, as in Mera, Mandra, and Meriali, of the Sindh Ságar Doab, and in Med-hukur or Mandhukur, the capital of Loháwar, offers the strongest confirmation of the conclusion which I have already derived from the notices of the classical authors, that the Meds or Mers were once the dominant race in the Panjáb. The special location of the Medi on the Hydaspes by classical writers of the first century of the Christian era, the evident antiquity of Mera, Meriali, and other places which still bear the name, and the admitted foreign origin of their modern representatives, the Mers, all point to the same conclusion, that the Medi, or Meds, were the first Indo-Scythian conquerors of the Panjáb.” Link - http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&f=&file=80201011&ct=154 Rajput-Maher Regular Member Joined: 2006/4/25 Posts: 249 From: http://www.jattworld.com/portal/userinfo.php?uid=3102 The above book / material was found discussed on the forum above : http://www.jattworld.com/portal/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5186&forum=1&viewmode=flat&order=1 Also see: http://www.jattworld.com/portal/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5275&forum=1 http://www.jattworld.com/portal/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5292&forum=6 Atulsnischal 10:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge from Maher caste

The article Maher caste appears to cover the exact same content, and even has a substantial text overlap. Are there any differences between "Mer" and "Maher", or can we go ahead and merge these two? MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:20, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

The two articles are largely the same; exactly the same in many sections. So I went ahead and merged the two articles. Please let me know if you have any concerns about this. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:15, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Controversy of "Rajput" status?

The article currently really pushes the Rajput-ties of the Mers. A cursory glance shows this to be rather controversial, so the controversy should be explicitly addressed in the article. Not that Victorian scholarship is our focus, and is certainly with faults, but this seemed a neat little sum-up:

Mhers or Mers.—The word Mer or Mher is derived from the word "mer" or "meru," a hill; so that Mer means a hillman or highlander. The Mers are closely related to the Minas ; indeed, it is probable that the distinction between Mer and Meena is geographical rather than ethnic. In other words the Meena and Mer belong to the same ethnic stock, but have come to be distinct peoples by virtue of their occupying distinct tracts of country. Mher tradition claims for them a Rajput origin, the story current among them being that they are descendants of Rajput fathers and Mina mothers. This tradition embodies a part of the truth in regard to their origin, for the Mers have an undoubted strain of Rajput blood in them; but there can be no doubt that the preponderating racial element in them is aboriginal and not Rajput.

It'll be a bit until I can actually tackle this vast mess of an article, probably large portions of which should just be deleted wholesale as NN and/or unref. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:40, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Changing the Article

I request the article to be reverted to my changes. I have changed the original and edited it. Mahers are majority Gujarati with roots in Rajasthan as they are Rajputs.

By Hindoostani.

You need to discuss your changes because they have been reverted by several people. I suggest as a first step that you take a read of two of our policies: the one concerning verifiability and the one concerning how we achieve that by use of reliable sources. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 16:05, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Well the early history may be debated, but recent history and culture foods, dance, clothes is true. It also generally agreed that Odedras come from Soomra Rajputs of Sindh and Sisodias come from Rajputs of the same name in Rajasthan. I dont really think a community websites would lie about the community's history especially, like this one, if its good. In addition the majority of Maher do come Gujarat. Now I don't know where to confirm this when I will I will tell you. Hindoostani (talk) 21:23, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

(Saw this on "Sitush"'s page), "Community websites" aren't reliable sources, draw no traction on Wikipedia. Quote reliable sources to back your argument. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 06:14, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

::Funny there is a link to a disambiguation entry that links back to this article. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 06:40, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

What authority do you have to delete this article? All the information that has been provided on wikipedia has been provided from community ancestors and elders. Also from books written in Gujarati by local Barots (historians). If the original article isn't put back online then we will start a petition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hindoostani (talk • contribs) 19:59, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

There is no doubt that Wikipedia, like any institution, has systemic bias. One of the issues that brings this to mind is the fact that oral history and the assertions of communities are generally not considered to be reliable sources. For example, there are many communities in India that claim to be of the kshatriya rank in the varna system but academics and other mainstream sources often disagree with these claims. Indeed, Srivinas's theory of sanskritisation was developed in part to explain them.

We cannot trust sources that are closely related to the subject matter precisely because more often than not they tend to present a viewpoint that is skewed towards themselves and to ignore or reduce to insignificance any viewpoints that might offer a different perspective to that which they consider to be correct. Whether or not such issues apply in the specific case of the website to which you keep referring is pretty much irrelevant because the community here has pretty much made its mind up. As I said to you on my talk page, there are some exceptions to the rule but they are few and far between ... and this does not appear to be one of them.

A link to the website can be included in the "External links" section provided that it does not fall into one of the categories noted at WP:ELNO but anything more is, I'm afraid, not acceptable. That is just the way it is: you are free to find some alternate place to say whatever it is you wish to say. - Sitush (talk) 20:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

To Sitush and your community leaders,

Could you kindly specify who the community is when you refer to it above that they have made their mind up. This is an opensource platform and many people have contributed to wikipedia not just interms of content but in terms on finance too. So that makes me a part of the this community too and I have right to voice that I do not agree to this.

Also you say that community websites are not good source to verify material/ content - how on this earth can you make that statement considering wikipedia is a community website itself! Therefore everything on this website can not be trusted. So could you remove everything on this wikipedia website? Also all banks and financial institutes are also websites does that mean it's not reliable sources either?

You need to change your policies to keep up with changing times.

Also there are millions of article on wikipedia that has not substance or any evidence, yet they've not been edited or removed and why do you have issues with this article?

Once this article is put back online we'll find alternative place to say everything else we want to say. Thank you. Hindoostani (talk) 21:29, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll let someone else respond to this. There have been far too many occasions when I have read pretty much the same arguments that you present and, frankly, I am getting a bit fed up of seemingly being one of a very few people who are willing to respond to them. Given the number of instances, I must be doing something wrong in the way I explain things. Hopefully, you will get a reply from someone who can explain the situation better than I can. The end result, however, will be the same. Sorry, but you either get Wikipedia to change its policies or you live with those policies: it is not a perfect environment, nor indeed is any. - Sitush (talk) 00:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Sitush, you sound like there is something wrong with our policies, I think most of them are as perfect as anything is in the world. Hindoostani please read wp:RS before coming back. Also wp:OSE. Blokes above have shared a few other links too, please go through them too.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 01:34, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Can we please delete this page there is another article on Mer people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.208.92.160 (talk) 16:02, 7 April 2018 (UTC)