Talk:Mary McAleese/Archive

Nationality

The article makes no mention of nationality - she must have presumably been born British? Is she now an Irish citizen? Is so would be worth mentioning when she changed nationality - i tried looking around but without luck. Dwyatt 101 01:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Anyone born on the island of Ireland is an irish citizen - its always been like that since the Free State came into being, although nowadays you have to have a resident parent on the island, anyone born in Northern Ireland is a british citizen as well - although northern nationalists tend to let that lie and opt for Irish citizenship for their children. People who have had a parent or grandparent born on the island aslo qualify for irish citizenship, Mary's Dad was born in Roscommon - part of the Republic so she'd qualify anyway if NI was excluded.

for example Im from Northern Ireland and I have a British Passport and if i so wished could apply for an Irish Passport and have both it says that it is the "Entitlement" to those born on the Island of Ireland to Irish citizenship if they so wish and that they use that entitlement when they do something an Irish Citizen can only do by applying for a Irish Passport so I could my self just by applying for a passport run for President of Ireland.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.65.220 (talk) 00:24, 2 November 2007 (UTC) Thanks for the help Dwyatt 101 17:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there a better picture of Mrs. McAleese?

I'm not liking the brown clothes she has on. I'm sure there is a better picture of her somewhere. - Stancel

That is her official presidential photograph, and she was inaugurated (in 1997) believe it or not, in that hideous outfit. But then Mary is not exactly good at choosing clothes. FearÉIREANN 22:47, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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" President of The Repulic Of Canada."Erm, President of Canada? HUH? Erm, educated at Hogwarts? HUH? Erm, Moon Colony #5? HUH? Erm, "She was first elected president in 1897"? HUH? Erm, "McAleese was born Mary Patricia Leneghan on 27th June, 1851 in Belfast where she grew up during the Troubles." ? 1851? HUH? Erm: "Term of Office: 11th November, 1823 - present Number of Terms: 71" ? HUH?

Is there some sort of vandalism going on here?

--Buzzie 18:50, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)

What do you think? 88.107.119.54 (talk) 22:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

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Do we have permission to use this image? The description gives no indication whether

• this image is copyright
• where it came from

This is the official portrait which appears on the President of Ireland's website. [1] I spoke to the President of Ireland's office about two months ago to get permission to use images of the various presidents of Ireland for our Irish presidential pages. They explicitly refused permission for use to use their copyright images, on the basis that because anyone could change the article on the President, anything could be written there. Supplying official portraits could be seen (in their eyes, according to them) as "endorsing" the site, but because they could not stand over its potential contents with reference to the presidents the "could not possibly" supply official pictures.

Much as though I like using images (and I am all in favour of it) using an image from a source that explicitly refused us the image, could get wikipedia into serious copyright trouble. So we need to know:

1. Where did this image come from?

1. If it came from the President of Ireland's website, did they give wikipedia permission subsequently to use it?

1. If it came from another source, do they have the right to allow it be used by a third-party?

I love this image on the page and hope it is OK but if we don't have permission and it is taken from a source that had already explicitly denied us permission to use it, it is have to be deleted. STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:19 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

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Does anyone know what NI party Pres. McAleese associated with in NI or has she always been an FF member?

Mary was an SDLP party memeber when she lived in the North

hoshie

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I am a bit confused, about Mary McAleese's name. In the Irish wikipedia she is mentioned as "Máire Mhic Ghiolla Íosa". Does she have two names - an English and an Irish one? Can somebody tell more about Irish naming conventions - especially about Irish/English name relations?

Many Irish people, particularly those in public life, will have both an English name and the Irish equivalent (or vice versa, whichever way you look at it). Mary and Máire are cognates, McAleese would be the English approximate pronunciation of Mhic Ghiolla Íosa (the Irish language is full of silent or elided letters to people who aren't used to it - Eamon de Valera gaelicises to Éamonn de Bhailéara for instance, but is pronounced the same). I presume Mrs McAleese isn't particularly bothered about having her name match her gender, otherwise she'd be Ni rather than Mhic... -- Arwel 12:35, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks very much for this explanation. Is one of the two names more "official". I know that in Ireland generally the Irish version of things is preferred, e. g. the Irish version of the constitution is in case of doubt higher-ranking than the English. At least theoretically. And s it possible for Irish people to make a determination between female an male gender analogue to the Irish "Ni" vs. "Mhic" in their English name?

Very good questions, and very well put. For an overview, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surnames under the Ireland section, much of which I substancially rewrote myself.

Now, to your immediate questions:

1 - Are one of the two forms, Irish or English, more "official"? The short answer is no. It is usually just a form of personal preference. Having said that, I think there are some legal issues if you switch from being John Smith to Sean MacGowan, Ferdy McLoughlin to Fergananim Ua Mael Sechlainn, Eve Connors to Aoife Bean O'Conchobair - or indeed visa versa!

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people in Ireland simply use the names they were given in childhood. And most of those names are English versions of Irish names.

My understanding, which may be wrong, is that you can have only one such name on your passport, Irish or English, but not both. And a great many people dislike doing so because it makes them look like Sinn Feiners, who have succeded to a degree in being more Irish than the Irish.

2 - Please phrase this a little better as I cannot answer it well as it stands.

Hope all this helps, if only a little. Fergananim

"Ulster Protestants, Ireland's largest minority"?

I don't want to correct this personal until I get clarification from the author.

Ulster Protestants are the largest "ethnic" group in the North and possibly in the historic area of Ulster, so shouldn't be regarded as a minority. Does the author mean the whole island of Ireland or the significant Protestant population in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan (the 3 counties of Ulster in the Rep. of Irl.). I doubt in the Republic that the Ulster (or Unionist) Protestants would be the largest minority.

Broadly agree. Using terminology like "minority" and "ethnic" (or "community") togetheir is always a self defeating exercise as society defines itself in many ways - especially in an increasingly complex world. Society is complex, indiviuals unique, and theirfore we should avoid using simple terms but rather be specific - viz, "X%...". Djegan 18:12, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure by "Ireland" in this case the island is meant. mango2005

Fianna Fail?

She was elected on an FF ticket in 1997, but did not align herself to any party or take a party nomination in 2004, instead ran as an independent under her own nomination. So she's not current an FF president. --Kiand 23:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Huh?

"Since November 19, 2005 she is the longest-serving current woman Head of State following the retirement of Chandrika Kumaratunga of Sri Lanka." I'm pretty sure Queen Elizabeth has been Queen since the 50s, and she's the Head of State of about a bazillion countries. —  MusicMaker 22:54, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree, she might be the longest-serving elected head of state that has been a woman, but not the longest overall. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree, Also I was not aware that one could be 'elected' when you are the only person running.

Adding Expected Step-Down Date in Article

While I understand prediction of future events are very unreliable, I believe we should include the expected date of McAleese's stepping down in the infobox, with adequate warnings given to viewers.

Here's what I propose for the warning:

(Barring any unexpected deaths and/or changes to the constitution, McAleese will step down by that date)

Any suggestions? Arbiteroftruth 01:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think anything more than one word is excessive as it is just crystal balling and over complicating the issue; their is simply too many issues that could happen (abeit unlikely) and by inclusion of one we should include all possibilities by default e.g. constitutional/resignation/dealth/impeachment/incapacity/etc. The best option is "present" or "incumbent" as they balance the reality that anything could happen without overcomplicating the issue and implying that the countries political system is unstable or prone to change.

Take for example (some office holders) Romano Prodi, Dominique de Villepin, Horst Köhler, John Howard; they use "incumbent". And indeed they use a different template, perhaps that is the way forward as well. Djegan 10:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

55th most powerful?

The Forbes item belongs on a page of subjective lists. Recognition, of a sort, but by a magazine that isn't on 99% of Irish news-stands. It doesn't belong at the top of the page; someone might want to put it back in a misc. section.Red Hurley 09:18, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Images?

Just figured I'd take an informal poll on whether editors preferred Image:Mary McAleese.jpg or Image:Mary McAleese 2007.JPG as the "main" image, and which one to be included later in the article. Both are in the public domain. Personally I feel the first (Polish) one feels 'cropped' and thus doesn't seem as natural a portrait as the second one, so I would support making the "2007" image the main one...but obviously might be biased, so welcome other opinions, agreement or dissent. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 07:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted this for now. Whatever about the quality of the pictures (personally I find the "2007" one is better quality) the former one was much more flattering than the "2007" one. I don't think anyone could argue the reverse. I really think overall that the former was much more suitable, so I've reverted for now. - ^Estoy_Aquí^{(t • c • e)} 16:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

They are both fairly unflattering, but neither are "inaccurate" photos - she is simply not a very photogenic person. It seems a tad silly to remove photos because you don't think they're flattering enough - it's different if they're misconstruing facts, making somebody look much fatter than they are, or catching George Bush picking his nose...but the fact somebody is not photogenic is not really reason enough to remove their photo. In addition, the composition of the 2007 photo (in addition to being the most recent) is much better than the badly cropped photo with half-people in the background - plus that photo already appears (uncropped) later in the article. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 06:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I reject utterly that the presidents photo should be that which is displayed in the main page. There are plenty of images that are in the public domain or are available for use with permission. I would suggest finding one of those quickly, as that is the most unstately of pictures. Until that can be the case, I would suggest getting hold of the official picture or portrait that is available from the presidential website. Obviously, I think that the so called Polish photo is the better option in this instance.

User:104066481 ^{(User_talk:104066481)} 00:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem with the Polish one is that it's got poor composition, is clearly cropped and awkward and already appears uncropped in the article. If however, you can find a free image of her that is more "noble", then I'd be glad to have it in the article. But note that the official photos from the Presidential website are unlikely to be free. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

about pages

there should be a page where you can find out what kind of jobs mary mcaleese does be cause im a second yaer and my home work is to find out what jobs mcaleese does as presendent —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.72.200 (talk) 19:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed text on Moyle Park College

I removed the following text:

On 13th October 2007, she visited Moyle Park College, Clondalkin on its Golden Jubilee. She opened the Jubilee Garden, met many students, and spoke about the importance of the Marist Brothers in the college. Visit Moyle Park's website for more - [1]

I assume it was an overenthusiastic addition to the page - if all such functions were added, this page would be a whole lot longer! Purgatorio (talk) 21:04, 28 November 2007 (UTC) what did mary do as the pres. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.63.205 (talk) 00:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Irish word for prime minister

I modified the infobox so it can display the Irish word for prime minister ("Taoiseach"), per a request by Dennisc24. Please discuss at Template talk:Infobox Officeholder#Irish prime minister Taoiseach. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

I have added back in the order no. as per all other Presidents of Ireland. This was a new office created in 1937, the preceding office was Governor General of the Irish Free State, which was a completely different office/job. This is nothing like the President of the Executive Council/Taoiseach debate. Snappy56 (talk) 03:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Irish fluency?

Does she speak Irish? If so, to what degree of fluency? Given that said language is official in the Republic she presides over, I'd find the information relevant. Thanks!--80.32.95.147 (talk) 13:42, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

It's difficult to say. Almost all Irish politicians have a "cupla focal", a few words and phrases. Also she received her education in Northern Ireland. Anyway, I don't actually think it is relevant. Also she does not preside over the Republic, she is President of Ireland not President of the Republic of Ireland . Snappy56 (talk) 10:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, OK. Sorry if something wasn't worded appropiately, though. As a complete foreigner and ignorant of the Irish context, I'd still like to find that detail of her here. I mean, considering that many of the biographies in Wikipedia do include information about the languages spoken by whoever is at hand, and that this biography already includes stuff not strictly related to her political role, such as her marital status, I do think that knowing whether she speaks one of the official languages of the country would be OK (and somehow relevant and, in any case, not incredibly "space wasteful"). --80.38.71.101 (talk) 08:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Can someone explain why this page was full of obscenities ? Its quite appalling. She is a President and deserves due respect for the office —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.162.3.170 (talk) 12:17, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually I think the level of her fluency in Irish to be very relavant and important. She is the official head of state and it is the official langauage. I can't think of another country on the planet wher ethe head of state's fluency in their native lanaguage is not relavent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.69.225.206 (talk) 04:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

McAleese was educated in a Catholic Convent school in west Belfast, therefore she was more than likely taught Irish in school. Whilst i cannot say what her exact standard of Irish is, she speaks quite fluently when speaking Irish at events. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mairtinopreith (talk • contribs) 00:36, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Born in the United Kingdom

We should consider mentioning McAleese as being born in the United Kingdom (which she was). IMHO, that would be more encyclopedic, then merely mentioning Northern Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 15:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

G'day, GoodDay, are you bored? Want to start an edit war for no particular reason? I think this is a bad idea, it will just lead to pointless warring and reverting. Now correct if I'm wrong but isn't place of birth supposed to refer to a geographic area like Ireland or Northern Ireland or England not a political entity like the UK or the RoI. And why stop with La Prez, you should do Gerry Adams and Martin McGuninness too, and add a nice Union flag in the infoboxes for good measure! Snappy (talk) 03:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm bored, but I don't want to start an edit war (thus my reason for not editing UK, into the article). Anyways, I put the idea out there & apparently it's gonna be rejected. No harm in checking. GoodDay (talk) 15:24, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Fianna Fáil

Em, McAleese is not a member of Fianna Fáil. She is independent and has no political alignment, at least in her current term. It might be worth removing Fianna Fáil from her infobox until the exact dates of her membership (and the type of membership) are confirmed.--Filastin (talk) 14:46, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

She was elected as a Fianna Fail candidate. All other presidents list their political party. Where is your evidence for saying "independent and has no political alignment" ? Snappy (talk) 01:17, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

http://electionsireland.org/candidate.cfm?ID=3651 --Filastin (talk) 17:45, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, that means elected as FF in 1997, re-elected (or self nominated) as independent in 2004. Snappy (talk) 12:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I would agree with Snappy she ran on the FF ticket in 97 and as independent in 04. BigDunc^Talk 13:56, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

IP Edits

It appears an IP has removed the wikilink to Ireland in the infobox not sure why maybe someone can let me know. BigDunc 20:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure either, but the IPs current conduct is quite disruptive. GoodDay (talk) 20:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I came here while reviewing WP:AN3 (so obviously I won't be acting on the report myself). I think the IP is trying to remove the obviously incorrect piped-link to Ireland which is an article on the island rather than the nation. It ought to pipe to Republic of Ireland ought it not, just the same as, for example, Bertie Ahern. CIreland (talk) 20:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes it should be linked to 'RoI'. But due to the sensitivities around Irish related articles, such changes should be proposed 'first', not enacted first. GoodDay (talk) 20:43, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but no. If someone tries to fix an obviously incorrect link we praise their willingness to help not revert to the incorrect link and demand they explain such a trivial matter. That goes for all articles with no exceptions. I'm seeing disruption here but not from the unregistered editor. CIreland (talk) 20:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. The IPs approach was (innocently) incorrect. Being WP:BOLD isn't always the best approach. However, looking back, I was guilty of WP:BITE & shall apologies to the IP. GoodDay (talk) 20:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Also disagree she is not from the ROI she is Irish from the Island Ireland. BigDunc 20:57, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I disagree with the IP (innocent) approach, but I do agree with linking to Republic of Ireland. But, that's something for others (besides me) to iron out. GoodDay (talk) 21:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

What would it say on her passport(s) ? CIreland (talk) 21:01, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

It would say she is from Ireland and that she is Irish. BigDunc 21:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I mean, which state would issue her passport(s)? Would she have more than one nationality? I don't know what the laws are in the Republic of Ireland regarding heads of state and dual nationality? Regardless, what body issues passports for the island of Ireland? CIreland (talk) 21:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Irish passports are issued by the government of Ireland. BigDunc 21:09, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The government of the Republic of Ireland or of the island of Ireland? CIreland (talk) 21:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

No thats wrong there is NO Government of the Republic of Ireland, it is the Government of Ireland. BigDunc 21:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes but our article at the title Ireland is about the island, not the state. This is about piping a link; not changing the text of the article as such. The article should obviously give the nationality as Irish but that is a dismabiguation page so it needs to be piped to the most relevant article. Reviewing the two articles, Ireland and Republic of Ireland which of the two articles as they are currently named discusses the state which issues Mary McAleese's passport? CIreland (talk) 21:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

But wikipedia is wrong on this and now we are getting into a world of hurt with the whole naming and disambag of Ireland. Which I honestly don't want to get into. I suggest we pipe it to Irish people. BigDunc 21:26, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Pipelinking to Irish people is acceptable (at least until the issue is resolved). GoodDay (talk) 21:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you propose also to change the multitude of other biographies where the nationality is piped to Republic of Ireland too? CIreland (talk) 21:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Eek, I didn't know that. GoodDay (talk) 21:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Does the "Nationality" field mean legal nationality/citizenship, or ethnic nationality? If the former, then the box should link to the Republic of Ireland. If the latter, then linking to Ireland seems OK. Mooretwin (talk) 21:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

(ec) She was born in Belfast which is not in what wikipedia call the Republic of Ireland, but is in the island of Ireland, which is also the correct name for the state. If they were born in what is called ROI for disambag purposes then no. BigDunc 21:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

So, one could argue, she's British-Irish. GoodDay (talk) 21:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

No you couldn't. BigDunc 21:46, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

(ec)The place where one is born is not the same as one's nationality; one can have multiple nationalities - hence my question to BigDunc earlier. Nationality surely does not mean "Ethnicity"; God help the Barack Obama articles if it does..... CIreland (talk) 21:47, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean could you explain? BigDunc 21:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

To: BigDunc - it doesn't matter that she was born in Belfast, as ROI extends its citizenship to those born in NI. If the nationality box means "legal nationality", then the link should be to Republic of Ireland, as that is the country of which she is a national. (I doubt she could have become president of ROI without being an ROI national.) If, as I say, the nationality refers to ethnicity, then a link to Ireland (the island) would be appropriate. (And, by the way, given that she was born in Belfast as you point out, she almost certainly is "British-Irish" (assuming what is meant by that term is that she is a dual national in the legal sense).) Mooretwin (talk) 14:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

We should either pipe-link to Irish people (as she wasn't born in the republic) or delete the 'nationality' from the Infobox. GoodDay (talk) 22:06, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Compromise Pipe-link, on McAleese's nationality

I've linked to Irish people, as McAlesse was 'not' born in the republic, but 'was born' on the island. GoodDay (talk) 22:18, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree; one is a national of a state (or states) not a people - thus the link should pipe to an article about a state, not a people. Nationality is a legal concept that confers certain rights; being a member of a people is not. I don't care whether the article about the state is called Ireland or Republic of Ireland just that the link should go to the content about the state. On a side note, I went to see how we deal with Nicolas Sarkozy since he was born in Budapest - I notice that Nationality has been omitted from the infobox. CIreland (talk) 23:06, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Omission, is my second choice. If ya wish to 'delete' the section, I'm content with that. GoodDay (talk) 23:10, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Sarkozy article says he was born in Paris, France. GoodDay (talk) 23:12, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

So it does, I misread it. CIreland (talk) 23:17, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with CIreland, nationality should pipe to a state, and as McAleese has an Irish passport, the state should be Republic of Ireland, as this is the (incorrect) name of the state of Ireland on wikipedia. Snappy (talk) 00:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Nationality is a tricky subject. What about the numerous children born overseas to American military personnel? Or people like actress Julie Christie who was born in India to English parents? In the case of Mary McAleese, however, the answer is simple: she is Irish both by nationality and ethnicity.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:21, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

It's whatever ya'll decide. GoodDay (talk) 13:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't see the issue, Jeanne. I would presume children born overseas to US military personnel are US citizens, and Julie Christie is a UK citizen. You're right about McAleese, though - and the question remains whether the "nationality" box refers to legal or ethnic nationality. Mooretwin (talk) 14:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Her legal nationality is Irish and her ethnic nationality is Irish. BigDunc 16:03, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Dunc, but I think we already worked that out. The question is whether the nationality box refers to the former or the latter. The answer to that question will inform whether to link to Republic of Ireland or Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 16:19, 30 October 2009 (UTC)