Template talk:Infobox officeholder

Template-protected edit request on 11 January 2024 (Governor-General nowrap display)

governor-general parameter with a hyphen should preferably display using the Nowrap template, using {{nowrap|Governor-General}} and {{nowrap|Governors-General}}.

This should not apply to the equivalent governor_general using a space for the title.

Mr. Lechkar (talk) 20:26, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 20:28, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion regarding the placement of "Sir"

There is a discussion regarding the placement of "Sir" here in case anyone is interested. Cheers, --Omnipaedista (talk) 15:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Complexity makes bug-fixing prohibitive

After finding a "bug" in the infobox for an Australian senator (where it linked to a like-named electorate in the UK), it turned out the page's infobox had parliament=Australian but constituent_MP1=Wentworth.

It turns out that in that case, this infobox strips the link and then assumes it's a UK electorate. I've been trying to figure out how this happens.

I've been deciphering both this infobox and its child Template:Infobox_officeholder/office, and after a large headache, well, I think I've identified the source of the weirdness, in the latter template.

The heading11 parameter is specified (hopefully clarified by my insertion of spaces and line breaks) as:

header11 = {{#if: {{{constituency_AM|}}}{{{constituency_MP|}}} | {{#switch: {{{parliament|}}} | Australian = Member of the <span style="display: inline-block;">[[Australian House of Representatives|Australian Parliament]]</span> | European = [[Member of the European Parliament]] | Scottish = [[Member of the Scottish Parliament]] | Sri Lanka|Sri Lankan = [[Member of Parliament (Sri Lanka)|Member of Parliament]] | United Kingdom|UK = [[Member of Parliament (United Kingdom)|Member of Parliament]] | #default = {{#if: {{{constituency_AM|}}} | {{#if: {{{assembly|}}} | Member of the <span style="display: inline-block;">[[{{{assembly}}} Assembly]]</span> | Assembly Member }} | Member of {{#if: {{{parliament|}}} | the <span style="display: inline-block;">[[{{{parliament}}} Parliament]]</span> | Parliament }} }} }} <br />for {{#ifeq:{{Title disambig text|{{{constituency_MP|}}}}}|UK Parliament constituency | {{{constituency_MP|}}} | {{#if: {{#switch: {{{parliament|}}} |United Kingdom|UK | = {{Linkless exists|{{#invoke:delink|delink|{{{constituency_MP|}}}}} (UK Parliament constituency)}} }} | {{#if:{{Constlk|{{#invoke:delink|delink|{{{constituency_MP|}}}}}}} | {{Constlk|{{#invoke:delink|delink|{{{constituency_MP|}}}}}}} | {{{constituency_{{#if:{{{constituency_AM|}}}|AM|MP}}}}} }} | {{{constituency_{{#if:{{{constituency_AM|}}}|AM|MP}}}}} }} }} {{#if: {{{prior_term|}}} | <div style="font-weight:normal;">{{{prior_term}}}</div> }} }}

This is problematic, because it places some of the UK-specific logic after outside the {{#switch:{{{parliament}}}|...}}, while at the same time effectively making the UK the default.

I suggest this section should look more like this:

header11 = {{Infobox_officeholder/description
 | parliament = {{{parliament|{{{assembly|}}}}}}
 | constituency = {{{constituency|{{{riding|}}}}}}
 | ap_label = {{#if:{{{assembly|}}}|Assembly|Parliament}}
}}

And a new Template:Infobox_officeholder/description would look something like this:

{{#switch:{{{parliament|default}}|
  | Australian = Member of the [[Australian House of Representatives|Australian Parliament]]
    <br />for {{{constituency}}}
  | European = [[Member of the European Parliament]]
    '''Bold'''for {{{constituency}}}
  | Scottish = [[Member of the Scottish Parliament]]
    '''Bold'''for {{{constituency}}}
  | Sri Lanka|Sri Lankan = [[Member of Parliament (Sri Lanka)|Member of Parliament]]
    '''Bold'''for {{{constituency}}}
  | United Kingdom|UK| =
    [[Member of Parliament (United Kingdom)|Member of Parliament]]
    '''Bold'''for
     {{#ifeq:
         {{Title disambig text|{{{constituency_MP|}}}}}
       | UK Parliament constituency
       | {{{constituency_MP|}}}
       | {{#if:
           {{Linkless exists|{{#invoke:delink|delink|{{{constituency|}}}}} (UK Parliament constituency)}}
            | {{#if:{{Constlk|{{#invoke:delink|delink|{{{constituency|}}}}}}}
                  | {{Constlk|{{#invoke:delink|delink|{{{constituency|}}}}}}}
                  | {{{constituency}}}
              }}
            | {{{constituency}}}
          }}
      }}
  | #default =
    {{#if:
        {{{parliament|}}}
      | Member of the <span style="display: inline-block;">[[{{{parliament}}} {{ap_label}}]]</span>
      |
        {{#switch:
            {{{ap_label|Parliament}}}
          | Assembly = Assembly Member
          | Parliament = Member of  Parliament
        }}
    }}
    <br />for {{{constituency}}}
  }}
}}

(Note that I say something like, because this still doesn't disambiguate between countries.)

---

By now I'm starting to think that a wholesale overall might be called for. It took a long time to dissect this code, not least because the lack of unfolded lines (in part because adjacency is required in some places, but mostly just by habit).

Firstly, there are small details, for example numerous instances of structures like

{{#if:{{{state_house|}}}|{{{state_house}}}|United States}}

where I wonder why it doesn't simply have

{{{state_house|United States}}}

instead?

Secondly, the bulk of the code seems to be handling country-specific special cases, such as

{{#if:{{{majority_leader|}}}{{{minority_floor_leader|}}}{{{minority_leader|}}}{{{majority_floor_leader|}}}||{{#if:{{{jr/sr|}}}|[[United States Senate|United States Senator{{#if:{{{succeeding|}}}{{{assuming|}}}|-elect}}]]<br />from {{{state}}}}}}}

or

[[Speaker of the {{{state_assembly|}}} {{#ifeq:{{{state_assembly|}}}|Nevada||{{#ifeq:{{{state_assembly|}}}|New Jersey|General|State}}}} Assembly]]

In the latter case I'm left wondering why that's not handled either by a subsidiary template, or indeed by not handling them here, and simply following the existing page redirections (from Nevada State Assembly to Nevada Assembly and from New Jersey State Assembly to New Jersey General Assembly respectively)? (This piece of magic is questionable anyway; for example, Massachusetts is not a State but rather a Commonwealth, and the formal title of its legislative body is the Massachusetts General Court.)

But more generally, having only a single template to deal with any kind of office seems like madness; surely it would be more maintainable to have specific templates for each kind of assembly (and possibly for each role)? Then Template:Infobox_officeholder/office could comprise (mostly) {{#switch:{{{parliament}}}|...}} and each region's template would only need to deal with its own idiosyncrasies.

Underneath those I would have another template that does formatting, given a fully standardized set of parameters.

Having mutually exclusive parameters constituency_AM and constituency_PM is a further complication. It would make more sense for these to be consolidated into constituency (which is already largely done) and add ap_label = Assembly or ap_label = Parliament (or in specialisations as ap_label = State Assembly or ap_label = Federal House of Representatives.

Adding country = and state = parameters would also simplify logic elsewhere. Martin Kealey (talk) 07:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC) Martin Kealey (talk) 07:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I think the easiest first step is to just remove the extra | after UK so it is no longer the default. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 16:26, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi Martin, thanks for bringing this issue to light. It should be fixed now, please see Special:Diff/1208231176 for the correction to the code and the relevant testcase for comparison with the previous code. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 20:58, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Template-protected edit request on 1 March 2024

Please delete the 'majority = vote' parameter from the Members of Parliament infobox. Those infoboxes are about the office being held, not the election. Having how much votes they last won the seat by, listed below the date they took their seat. Just doesn't look right. GoodDay (talk) 06:13, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:TPECON, removal of a parameter from a template-protected template should not be done without a strong consensus. I would tend to oppose removing it (e.g., for British MPs, where a politician's "majority" is used to mean "vote lead" even when it's a plurarily; see the second sense at Wikt:majority and the Cambridge Dictionary). It seems to have been added by @Philip Stevens in 2006 to Template:Infobox Politician, which was one of the templates merged into this one in 2007. I would be open to supporting a change to something clearer like "Last vote lead". SilverLocust 💬 07:59, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Image how it would look, if we added "the last Electoral vote" for US presidents, to their infobox? These boxes are meant for the tenure of the holder, not their 'most recent' electoral victory. GoodDay (talk) 15:27, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

• I support the removal as per GoodDay's reasoning. Also, with a general election in the UK this year, all of the information currently in this field for UK MPs is about to go out of date. --Philip Stevens (talk) 09:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Whereas I support SilverLocust's objection. As a reader, when I look up a politician (or even ex-politician), it's sometimes useful to know at a glance whether they were representing a safe seat or a marginal. I don't think the objection that the figures will require updating holds up – lots of information in Wikipedia infoboxes is similarly topical, and my (admittedly limited) experience of editing politician articles is that politically inclined Wikipedians are pretty good at updating things after elections. We don't object to sport-related infoboxes containing up-to-the-minute data. I'd support the "Last vote lead" proposal; that would then still be valid for politicians after they leave office, and would reduce the update burden. Dave.Dunford (talk) 10:55, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

But these are "Officeholder" infoboxes, not election infoboxes. Imagine how it would look, if we listed in every US president's bio, their "Electoral vote total" in their infobox? GoodDay (talk) 15:27, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I imagine it would add one line to the infobox, which I can live with. Though, to be honest, I was thinking more run-of-the-mill British MPs, where the size of their local majority is rather more pertinent information than it would be in the case of a US president (or British Prime Minister, for that matter). Dave.Dunford (talk)

If one wants to know how much an MP won their last election? One just needs to go the constituency page or any other related election page. As I've already posted, having votes/percentage in an office holder infobox, is out of place. That info belongs in election infoboxes. GoodDay (talk) 17:35, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Weird argument. Why not put it in both places, to make life easier for the reader? Dave.Dunford (talk) 11:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

It's not an election infobox & shouldn't be treated as though it were. Anyways, I can see you're not going to agree with me. So best to let others chime in. GoodDay (talk) 16:48, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I think this probably needs a full RFC, but I support this. I have never understood why this parameter is used for UK MPs, and only UK MPs. If every other country can do without, surely the UK can, too. — Kawnhr (talk) 19:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

@Kawnhr: where would be a good location for such an RFC? At least removing the 'numbers' would suffice. GoodDay (talk) 19:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I have notified a relevant wikiproject at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom#Should UK MP infoboxes include "majority"?. (I note that the much broader project had been notified at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics#British MPs infoboxes but this more specific one had been overlooked.) PamD 08:13, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Use this infobox for people who have never held office?

If a notable person has run for office, but been deafeated, and has never held office of any kind, at any level (municipal, state, federal, etc), should this infobox be used? Or is there a better one? Fred Zepelin (talk) 17:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

The infobox shouldn't be used. GoodDay (talk) 17:35, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Do you have a suggestion for a good alternate? This is for Joe Kent. Fred Zepelin (talk) 18:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Kent's infobox is alright as is. We don't need an infobox to cover defeated candidates who've never served in office. GoodDay (talk) 18:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Works for me, thank you. Fred Zepelin (talk) 19:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

"governor"

There is no guidance on using the |governor= (or similar) parameter. I've always taken it to mean the governor(s) with/under whom the subject worked during their tenure(s) in office. Is this correct? Is there any codified or informal consensus for these parameters? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 14:02, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Commenting again to double-check: Is there any codified or informal consensus for how and/or with what the |governor=, |lieutenant=, etc. variables are to be filled? Is my assumption of the [whomever](s) with/under whom the subject worked during their tenure(s) in office correct? If so, could it be added to the instructions? If not, what is correct? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 14:16, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I believe you are correct. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 15:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the assist. That's how I've seen it done, but I wanted to make sure it was SOP before I edited IAW that understanding. Should this be added to the instructions in case it comes up again? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 20:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

You could add a description to , if you think that would help. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 13:59, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Different political parties for each term?

The available documentation seems to assume that politicians will be affiliated with a single party throughout their entire career. This is very much not the case in many places around the world. Is there a way to separately list the party with which a person was affiliated during each of the offices they held, which is an important piece of information in such cases? --Paul_012 (talk) 15:51, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you can use the sub-term parameter to do it. Israeli politicians regularly change party, so they are typically formatted like this. Number 57 00:59, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 23 March 2024 (Headings to sentence case)

Please change "State Representative" to "State representative" and "State Senator" to "State senator" per MOS:HEADINGS. Chris the speller ^yack 18:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Could you please sandbox the change you want to make? Call me daft but I don't see those words in either {{infobox officeholder}} or {{infobox officeholder/office}}. Primefac (talk) 13:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Or link to an article where these headings are displayed, and we can track down the code. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:18, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The only one who is daft is me. Sorry to take so long to get back to this. At this time, I can't find any article that needs such help. But wait! I will make a similar request below for "Governor-General" and "Governor General". Chris the speller ^yack 21:27, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Residence

WP:BLPPRIVACY says that "articles should not include postal addresses, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers, or other contact information for living persons, although links to websites maintained by the subject are generally permitted" and later "If you see personal information such as phone numbers, addresses, account numbers, etc. in a BLP or anywhere on Wikipedia, edit the page to remove it and contact the oversight team so that they can evaluate it and possibly remove it from the page history." With this policy language, should "residence" remain a parameter in this template? My sense is that it should be deleted from the template to discourage editors from entering information that would violate BLPPRIVACY. --Enos733 (talk) 20:12, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with residence as long as it is only used for residences which come with the office held: it is reasonable to record that Joe Biden is resident at the White House. But it should not be used for any private residences: so at the Rishi Sunak page we should only list 10 Downing Street and Chequers and should remove the curent reference to Kirby Sigston Manor which is a purely private house. Perhaps the parameter should be changed to "official residence" or similar? Jonathan A Jones (talk) 20:24, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Note also that this parameter was removed from the main person template following this discussion. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:14, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 10 April 2024 (Headings to sentence case for Governor-general)

If the parameter "governor-general" is populated, it produces the heading "Governor-General", MOS:PEOPLETITLES specifically prohibits capitalizing the element after the hyphen: "When hyphenated and capitalized, e.g. Vice-president (as it is usually spelled in contexts other than US politics), the element after the hyphen is not capitalized." Shouldn't other titles also be in sentence case, such as "Governor general" and "Prime minister"? When the "primeminister" parameter has "Dilbert Smythe", isn't that a shorthand for "his prime minister was Dilbert Smythe"? Chris the speller ^yack 21:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Depends. I think it's not a good idea to 'lower case', concerning infoboxes. GoodDay (talk) 22:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Your personal view is in direct opposition to the warning at the top of the infobox officeholder page: "The design and content of biographical infoboxes must follow Wikipedia's verifiability policy, as well as infobox and biographical style guideline". The biographical style guideline contains the MOS:JOBTITLES section, which says that job titles should not be capitalized. Chris the speller ^yack 04:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

No, GoodDay is correct. The longstanding consensus is that we observe official title case capitalization in infobox titles. If you believe that this infobox should conform to MOS:JOBTITLES, it is your problem to initiate an RfC and advocate for overturning that consensus rather than pretend that there is any consensus for your position (a fallacy called begging the question). At this time, there isn't. --Coolcaesar (talk) 16:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Aside from the MOS linked to by Chris the speller, can you point to the consensus discussion or codification to which you're referring? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 17:00, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

No, I didn't pretend anything, I pushed no fallacy, and I have no obligation to initiate an RfC when the template warning and the MoS are clear that capitalization is not called for. If there is a cabal to hijack this template and ignore the MoS they should consider coming out into the daylight. There is no need to be defensive and attack an editor who simply stated two facts and is asking to have it played by the book. Chris the speller ^yack 20:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)