Talk:Martina Navratilova/Archive 1

Where is the timeline?

Someone take pain to make the timeline. Vivek 21:31, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

A Doubles and Mixed Doubles timeline is in dire need given that she has won a career Grand Slam in both events. 202.89.163.157 (talk) 13:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Birthplace?

While the main article says she was born in Prague, the Bio Panel on the right says Řevnice. While, yes, I know that they are quite close, they aren't the same place. Would someone like to confirm and fix it?

Her own biography published in 1985 with G. Vecsey indicates she was born in Prague, as does her own official website. The village of Revnice is just outside Prague, about 30 minutes by train. Montydad (talk) 19:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Her own official website states now here http://www.martinanavratilova.com/stats.html that she was born in Řevnice which is indeed an independent town. Opinions? SybilleY (talk) 14:17, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Accents

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was not moved. Most common English usage is Martina Navratilova. Joelito (talk) 13:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose common English spelling is without accents. Just look at the varous matches on NBC, ESPN, etc, and how they spell it. She's also a US citizen, what's her legal US name? 70.51.11.34 06:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
• support so what? even if you are a US citizen, you are entitled to have your name written correctly with diacritics. Gryffindor 13:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Maybe she's changed it herself. Just because that's the standard Czech spelling, doesn't mean she has to use it now she's a US citizen. Matches on US sports websites are equally irrelevant, as they often drop diacritics from all names. The only relevant question is how MN herself writes it, and I suspect nobody here knows the answer. — sjorford++ 14:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support We write people's name correctly here. End of debate. Silversmith Hewwo 00:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I feel like I'm not even here... — sjorford++ 08:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Performance timeline

As discussed in the (Talk:Andre Agassi), its time to standardize the performance timeline look. I for one think that the current timeline is unattractive, and I think that the previous tri-color model was far easier to read, and much more pleasing to the eye. I am currently changing the timeline to the current standard, and if anyone would like it changed back, please discuss the change before making it, preferrably on the Andre Agassi talk page, a page where it seems more people interested in this debate frequent.

Homophobia

Please don't excise material that provides counterpoint to the expressions of homophobia in the article, such as Martina's comment about gay people being sent to insane asylums, her father's attitude that she was sick, and the inference that people choose to be gay or are converted. Obviously, I'm not saying Martina is making a homophobic comments or that people who have worked on this article are intentionally biasing it. But, the way the material was presented makes it seem like only homophobia and scientifically unsupported notions that generate it are what people understand concerning gay people, when in fact there has been a lot of objective research done for decades that shows homosexuality absolutely is not a mental disorder, that sexual orientation has nothing to do with contact with gay people, and that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice. I added a link to the APA's webpage, and some counterpoint.

---

I think the personal life section is doing Martina a slight dis-service. I think she's equally inspirational to peoples of all sexualities - simply for her comittment to an ethic of hard work and determination.

There seems to be a slight effort to prove that she's definitly not bisexual - I'm not sure this is necessary as she's universally considered gay. If she was bi-sexual or had any heterosexual tendencies whatsoever, this in no way maligns ANY of her acheivements.

Clearly her sexuality and the way she's dealt with it is important. But I think her acheivements as an athlete are as least equally as inspirational to gay and straight folk as her openness and activism is.

Maybe a slight change of emphasis required?

---

The difference is that there were few role models for gay people, and many sports figures remain in the closet while they're in competition. During the Reagan 80s as a child, she was practically the only person I saw on TV who was gay and not presented as inferior. While she's inspirational for people of all types, the importance of her visibility as a strong gay person can't be minimized. Heterosexuals have had a lot more role models and representatives throughout history, and gay people have faced censorship - the notion that a gay person's sexuality should be censored which renders gay people invisible in society, unless there's scandal. Even today, homophobia is very common and gay people continue to need Martina as an openly lesbian figure to draw strength from.

L Word question

Is Martina Navratilova the real life "gay Anna Kournikova"? Cromulent Kwyjibo 00:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Navratilova had a much more successful tennis career than Kournikova. Jim Michael (talk) 04:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Doubles titles: 177 or 178?

It seems that it is 177, as it is explained in the text, but the Bio Box says 178. Could someone correct? Nazroon 18:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Personal life

The personal life section contains only information on her sexuality. Yes, she's a lesbian, we know. Do we really need an entire section devoted to it? Arkyopterix 14:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

No info on kd lang? Hrhadam (talk) 13:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The absence of serious details about the ground-breaking palimony case with Judy Nelson is disturbing. Has this article been edited by Navratilova's publicist or something. The case was nationally important, perhaps internationally important, due to the concept of palimony in a lesbian common-law relationship. Or perhaps Navratilova doesn't want to be reminded of coming across so poorly in the world's media. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.195.97.14 (talk) 13:10, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Animal treatment activist

I have removed an out-of-place sentence about Martina Navrátilová contributing to Sarasota in Defense of Animals. I don't think we need to list every charity she donates to, but more information about her activism for treatment of animals could be added into the article. - Mike Rosoft 19:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Clarified reference to Amendment 2 in the "Activism and politics" section

The sentence originally read "She filed a lawsuit against Amendment 2, a 1992 ballot proposition in Colorado designed to deny legal benefits to gays and lesbians." I changed it to "She filed a lawsuit against Amendment 2, a 1992 ballot proposition in Colorado designed to deny gays and lesbians legal protection from discrimination." in order to be more specific about the amendment. Not a big deal, but since homosexuality is a controversial subject I thought I'd post my reasoning. MrVibrating 07:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Question regarding opening summary

At the top it reads "Navratilova reached 11 consecutive Grand Slam singles finals, second all-time to Steffi Graf's 13." However, if you look at the table below, it clearly shows she reached 14 consecutive Grand Slam singles finals from the 1984 French Open until the 1987 US Open. What gives? Supertigerman (talk) 18:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

This is not an error. The 1984 Australian Open was the last Grand Slam tournament of the year, not the first one. Therefore, her streak was interrupted there. Tennis expert (talk) 19:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for explaining. Supertigerman (talk) 06:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

This article is really long

Especially due to all of the charts detailing tournaments--shouldn't they be moved on to a separate article, just as is done with a director or actor who has a really long filmography? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anarchonihilist (talk • contribs) 03:54, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Tables are not counted when determining whether an article is "really long." Tennis expert (talk) 04:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Nonetheless This article is presently 177 kb - one of the longest ones on Wikipedia. At this point, it is difficult to display or edit in some browsers. There is no reason why there couldn't be a Records of Martina Navratilova article. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:29, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Justin... this page is excruciatingly long 72.154.153.112 (talk) 07:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. Those tables are ridiculous. The article on Utah is long but it contains lots of reading and information on the topic and can easily be split into sub-topics. Something needs to be done about this article but I won't do it for fear I will make a mess of the whole thing. If anyone can fix it, go right ahead. Bonzostar (talk) 19:32, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Split article

At the very minimum, the records/matches/tables/statistics should be a separate article--Levineps (talk) 21:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree, this is a brilliant and informative page, but i think a separate page is needed for her near endless stats. It is probably one of the longest wiki pages i've come across.--Uksam88 (talk) 21:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

if split, please add winning % in singles 86.8, in doubles 83.9. ref [1]

Rewriting needed

There is a great deal of "puff" which is not strictly relevant to a biography in this article. Will anyone who likes the puff please tell me before I remove any and anger you? Thanks! Collect (talk) 22:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Removed a tiny bit -- and was reverted. If anyone really has problems with trimming the article, please talk here. Thanks! Collect (talk) 02:05, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I strongly object to your wholesale deletion of the following well-sourced material: "Billie Jean King said about Navratilova in 2006, "She's the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player who's ever lived." Tennis writer Steve Flink, in his book The Greatest Tennis Matches of the Twentieth Century, named her as the second best female player of the 20th century, directly behind Steffi Graf. Tennis magazine has selected her as the greatest female tennis player for the years 1965 through 2005. Tennis historian and journalist Bud Collins has called Navratilova, "Arguably, the greatest player of all time." 75.63.7.15 (talk) 05:37, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Note that I mentioned "puff" and you said not a word until you found it necessary to retain not only the puff" but all the deathless prose which I also excised -- like "however" and "nonetheless" and the like. Did you actually check all the changes, or just decide that any revisions had to be reverted? Can you live without "however" and such in the article? Thanks! WP is not a repository for evry word said by or about a subject of a BLP. Collect (talk) 11:30, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't be obtuse and patronizing. Assume good faith. Don't call the deletion of well-sourced material a "tiny" edit. Why do you dislike the words "however" and "nonetheless"? They haven't been banished from the English language, and they help the text transition from one idea to another. Hyperbole like "deathless prose" is unconstructive and leads to hard feelings. Haven't you already experienced enough conflict with your edits of other articles? 75.63.7.15 (talk) 20:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I consider reverting "however"s to be not AGF. So far I have worked on several hundred articles, and run into only a tiny handful of obstructionist editors overall. [2] Collect (talk) 00:55, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Which flag?

What flag should be used in the period between losing Czech citizenship and gaining US Citizenship? The issue cropped up at List of US Open (tennis) champions Francium12 (talk) 16:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Are the flags supposed to be a marker of citizenship or what country the player is representing? Fyunck(click) (talk) 17:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

A player "represents" a country only during Fed Cup or the Olympics. Navratilova did not play Fed Cup for the USA until after she gained American citizenship. Chidel (talk) 18:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Those flags we put up are not proof of citizenship. They are a simple mechanism for showing what country was represented by a player. By your meaning ALL the flags should be removed... is that what you are proposing? The flags here simply show the country that player was living in or had citizenship in or promoted, etc... something that attaches them to a certain country. With Martina it was the US at that time. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:30, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Traditionally, we use flag icons based on citizenship, not on residence. Otherwise, Monaco would have more professional tennis players than anywhere else. Ditch the emotionalism, please. Chidel (talk) 22:19, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

That is incorrect by wiki flag template standards. The article on flag usage says it indicates citizenship, nationality etc... It even mentions case by case determination. And under nationality it says that the person need not be a citizen for it to apply. Further it mentions to take into consideration a person's "sporting nationality" and that flags should "never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense." Please don't speak from the heart, use common sense or facts. And traditionally? You've only been posting since June 20. Or do you have another handle? Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:43, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The WP:Flags guideline actually says, "Flags should never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense; flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or sporting nationality." The confused nature of this guideline is illustrated here. But let's assume for the moment that your case-by-case criterion is valid. For tennis, that appears to be citizenship. Can you find even one example in a Wikipedia tennis biography to the contrary? I looked and couldn't. As for "sporting nationality" (whatever that means), you have yet to cite even one example of Navratilova having a "sporting nationality" (whatever that means) of the USA before she obtained American citizenship. I, on the other hand, have cited contemporary media reports showing her as "stateless". Correct me if I'm wrong, but Wikipedia is based on verifiable facts, not emotionalism or "what she deserves". Chidel (talk) 23:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I think case by case is very valid here as this situation may be unique. Those "stateless" articles you cite refer to her citizenship. That is not in question, she had none. How many people can you find in wiki that were stateless so that we can draw upon that? Probably none but you can certainly look. Martina defected to the US and made it her homeland. She may not have been able to represent the US in fed cup or olympics in an official capacity, but she was playing as a person from the US. The flag icon info is vague as the ""sporting nationality" says nothing more. To me it's as close as we are going to get to saying Martina should have a US flag. She deserves or merits a US flag just as Federer deserves/merits a Swiss flag but if your emotions won't allow that then leaving her flag blank is a better option than the Czech flag. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:12, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Open era records mistake

It says she has 19 consecutive grand slam singles semifinal apperances from 1983Wimbledon to 1988 Australian but i only count 18 because in 1986 there is a NH for the Australian Open that year ( in the career statistics) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris4z01 (talk • contribs) 22:46, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no mistake. In 1983 the AO was held in December so Martina had 3 in a row going into 1984. By 1988 it was switched back to January. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:21, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Confusing decades (three instead of two)

Open era records table states:

Grand Slam tournament	Years	Record accomplished	Player tied
Wimbledon	1978-1990	Winner of a Grand Slam singles event in three decades	Serena Williams

This spans only over two decades: the 8th decade (1978., 1979. and 1980.) and 9th decade (1981., 1982., ..., 1989. and 1990.). The supposed third (10th of 20th century) decade begun at 1. 1. 1991. There is a widespread confusion with the decades all over the internet, including the official Australian Open 2010 website that declared the champions and promising players of "the next decade", as well as proclaiming itself as being the first Grand Slam of the next (second) decade of the 21st century, while the second decade will begin at 1th January of 2011. By convention, there was no year 0, and year 2000. belongs to 20th century. The first millennium, first century, first decade of the first century of the first millennium -- all begun at 1th January of the year one. This part should be reconsidered/reviewed and corrected. 93.138.44.92 (talk) 20:52, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Although strictly speaking the tenth decade of the 20th century starts on 1/1/1991, it is much more common, when referring to a decade, to mean the years from XXX0 to XXX9. For example, when something happens in the year 1960, one says it happened during the sixties, not during the fifties. 90.176.211.48 (talk) 12:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

1982 US Open

Came across an odd little story of Navratilova and the 1982 US Open, from pp. 116-9, Parasites: Tales of Humanity's Most Unwelcome Guests, by Rosemary Drisdelle, ISBN 978-0-520-25938-6. Turned out she caught toxoplasmosis, and she was quite ill, certainly contributing to her quarterfinal loss. Then, while leaving the court, she pushed/smacked/something a persistent cameraman (the story makes it clear the cameraman was being a jerk). The story was used as an example of toxoplasmosis possibly (not definitely) changing behavior (Navratilova did not use it as an excuse; the court said she was simply too ill to have actually assaulted the cameraman, as he claimed) Might be an interesting addition to the article if there's more information out there. A²Kafir (and...?) 16:36, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

mangled article

in this edit, the article suddenly doubled in size, since the entire article was pasted inside of itself. I have attempted to fix this, but may have missed some important changes ... I will try to check the other edits to see, but it's going to be tough. Frietjes (talk) 17:19, 11 January 2012 (UTC)