Talk:Mariam Soulakiotis/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 14:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Sources seem OK; I'm not familiar with the Greek news sources but as far as I can tell they're all professional, edited news organizations.

• The images of Soulakiotis are marked as PD in the US as being published in the US without a copyright notice prior to 1977. I don't see any indication of publication in the US; can you clarify?
• The lead is too long for the size of the overall article; see WP:LEAD -- it should be a brief summary. I suggest cutting at least a quarter of the length.

Those are the main issues with the article. I'll review again once those points are addressed. Also, it's not necessary to cite something in the lead; everything in the lead should be in the body of the article, and should be cited there, so you don't have to cite anything but direct quotes and controversial material in the lead. This is not an issue for GA, though, just an FYI. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:00, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Psiĥedelisto, are you planning to work on this? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 08:48, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: Hey! Thanks a lot for the ping. Just saw the review was done now (note my sig, I rely a little too much on the ping system). Yes sir, I'll work on it now. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) ^{please always ping!} 16:06, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I removed the PD US tags as you are right they do not apply. (Please see the userpage of @GRuban for extended discussion that should answer your questions; if not I can clarify: User talk:GRuban/Archive 11 § Mariam Soulakiotis.) I also attempted to shorten the lead. Do you want an even shorter one? Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) ^{please always ping!} 06:02, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Psiĥedelisto: the lead looks fine now. Re the images, I think it's OK to assume those are Australian publication only. However, I think that means that they are not PD in the US. I'm not expert at image policy, but looking at the Hirtle chart, I think we're in the section for "Works First Published Outside the U.S. by citizens of foreign nations", in the row "1927 through 1977: Solely published abroad..." in which case they would not have been PD in Australia in 1996 (the URAA date) and are therefore not PD in the US for 95 years -- 2046, in other words. If that's correct, they can't be hosted in commons, and in fact are fair use, so you'd only be able have one or two of them in the article. As I said, I'm not an image expert, and am prepared to have someone else point out what I'm getting wrong here. If you agree with me, I think we have to pick one to use in the article and move it to en-wiki and delete the others from commons. If you want another opinion, I'll post a query at the copyright noticeboard, or you can call in an image expert if you know one. In the meantime I'll look through the article again just to make sure there's nothing else outstanding for GA. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:06, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: Interesting theory. But the photo was taken in Greece by the AP. It's just that I'm using the Australian version because it's superior digitally. The photo isn't Aus. publication only. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) ^{please always ping!} 11:08, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Psiĥedelisto OK -- where else were they published? I guess it would depend where they were first published. Just being by AP doesn't count as publication, does it? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:36, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Psiĥedelisto, just checking in -- any more thoughts on the image issue? If you want to remove the images while you look into their copyright status, I can promote; if not we have to figure out whether they were published elsewhere. I can also ask an image expert I know to comment, if you like; they do much more image reviewing than I do, and would know if I'm misinterpreting the Hirtle chart here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:36, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: Here's a UK republication: [1]. Many of the search results also state the AP as the source. Feel free to ask around… I believe that back in these days, although I'm far from an expert, newspapers could sign on to a “package” with the AP and would get a bunch of international stories which their editorial staff would choose how to cut up and present. It's been nigh impossible for me to find an American newspaper that ran the photo, but that doesn't mean it did not happen, hehe. Just that I'm having some trouble proving it. But I think the fact that the AP is the source ought to be enough. The US doesn't seem to have this tradition of “pictorial” newspapers, which complicates matters. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) ^{please always ping!} 06:21, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

I've posted a question to Nikkimaria, who does a lot of image reviewing at FAC; let's see what she says. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:14, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately simply being an AP photo isn't enough to demonstrate that they're now PD - we need to be able to confirm the images were distributed to US organizations. I've also done some searching through contemporary newspaper sources as well as books and haven't found anything to back that up.

The use of a life+70 tag is almost certainly incorrect given the date of the images, so in any case that should be taken off. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:54, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Nikki. Pinging Psiĥedelisto per their request. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:04, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie, @Nikkimaria: I am still looking for a US (re)publication. I have a book coming which apparently details the case, I think it is a UK or Dutch publication though. I removed the life + 70 yr tag in mean time. I am somewhat certain that if I ask some local Greek Orthodox they may have some idea. Then again this may not be worth it, I just think it'd be a shame for non-English Wikipedias if the image were to be moved from the Commons. Ironically including Greek Wikipedia. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) ^{please always ping!} 03:37, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Per the Hirtle chart I think the US publication would have to be within 30 days, so I think the book is a long shot. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 07:40, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: The book is certainly a long shot. But there are many newspapers not in the Newspapers.com database, however useful it occasionally is. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) ^{please always ping!} 13:50, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Psiĥedelisto, true. If we can't find an example, though, I think we have to delete these from Commons and pick one as fair use. The others can be restored if/when we find a publication example. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:08, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: OK. I'm not a Commons admin and I don't think it's appropriate to open a COM:DR against my own file as the fact it's an AP photo still feels like enough to me, but perhaps everyone else disagrees. If they do then I'll go with the infobox photo as the FU photo. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) ^{please always ping!} 19:38, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Psiĥedelisto, I'm not going to insist you delete them on Commons; I would recommend it but that's got nothing to do with GA. Once there's only one of the photos in the article, and it's on en-wiki with a FUR, I will pass the GA. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:51, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: Oh, I understand. No problem. I will upload a local file today and remove the Commons ones. Then if another editor is interested in the broader highly esoteric issue (On Commons, is knowing a photo is AP-sourced enough to assert it's in the public domain, even without proof of publication?) they can raise it on Commons. Thanks~! 🙇‍♂️ Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) ^{please always ping!} 20:39, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

References

Psiĥedelisto, a nudge on this -- as you know I can't pass this till the images are dealt with. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:51, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: Done, sorry for delay. [2] Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) ^{please always ping!} 01:07, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks; that takes care of that issue. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:37, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Psiĥedelisto, I realized recently that I should also be doing spotchecks when I do GA reviews, so I'm doing one for this. I ran Earwig and it finds no issues. Spotchecks:

• FNs 2 & 5 cite "Reuters and Newsbeast give her age upon her death as 71": verified.
• FN 9 cites "At her trials, Soulakiotis wore an Orthodox icon depicting the deceased Matthew": I've read the cited article twice and don't see anything about an icon -- am I missing it? I see she's wearing an unidentified icon in the image, but it only says that's how she looked before the trial.
• FN 6 cites "When Matthew's health started to seriously fail in 1950, Soulakiotis' already considerable influence over him grew in turn." I see three references to Mariam in this source; two relate to influencing Matthew in the matter of consecrating bishops, but there's nothing about her influence already being considerable, or about it growing when he fell ill, as far as I can see.
• FN 6 cites "As a nun, Mariam was called Mother (and later Abbess) Mariam of Keratea." Verified, but why do you say "later"?
• FN 31 cites 'Described as a "cult leader"': verified.
• Looking at the sources I have a couple of questions -- not sure how I missed these first time round, perhaps because they are in Greek.
  • FN 28 is a blog; what makes it a reliable source?
  • FN 6 is the personal website of Vladimir Moss. I tried searching for information about him; he appears to be an Old Calendarist and not orthodox Orthodox, if you know what I mean. I can't find anything that indicates he has a reputation outside his own publications -- the ones I looked at were self-published. What would make him reliable for our purposes?

Sorry, should have posted these questions a while back; I only just realized I hadn't posted source queries on this review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:37, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Psiĥedelisto, just a reminder that these need to be addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:46, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I came back to this as there has been no progress for two weeks. I also did a couple more checks and noted some uncited text, which I'm not sure how I managed to miss before:

• FN 33 cites "As during Soulakiotis' day, tuberculosis treatment was still new, and was a problem throughout Greece": the source says tuberculosis treatment was a widespread problem in Greece, but says nothing about the treatment being new.
• "it is unclear the degree to which Soulakiotis was involved in the negligent homicides she was convicted of in 1952" is uncited.
• FNs 2 & 22 cites "Soulakiotis further faced police scrutiny when they were searching for an 18-year-old woman from Toledo, Ohio but born in Greece, Simela Spyrides,[q] who first went missing in 1949". The name is given as "Ileana Spyrides" in one source, and not given in the other. Neither source mentions Toledo

Since both the additional checks revealed sourcing issues, and there is no work going on on the article, I am failing this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:59, 26 September 2022 (UTC)