Talk:Madinat al-Zahra

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Wikification

I've revised a bit the style, which was fitting more a magazine than an encyclopedia, and removed some POV, as well as the use of "miles" for articles in countries where such out of date units are not used. --'''Attilios''' (talk) 13:36, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

del puerto

That should read 112 hectares in the intro - not sites. Del puerto (talk) 16:08, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

NicholasCraig

A reference to the second city Madinat al-Zahira is in the archaeological museum at Cordoba and I was surprised that no reference was made to it at the museum at Madinat al-Zahra ( the official Junta de Andalucia spelling of the site name). On returning to the Cordoba museum I asked staff there if they could expand on the single mention of the name. The consensus seemed to be that a spelling mistake hundreds of years ago sparked off a rumour that grew into a myth that developed into a fact. A minority seemed to be of the opinion that the second city was built and that it then became the seat of government thus explaining the sudden abandonment of Madinat al-Zahra around 980.

Subsequently I have found a few references in history books written much later after the event but they could equally have been describing Madinat al-Zahra or slavishly repeating previous mentions. The confusion between the two names continues. Even Wikipedia cross references both spellings and other travel writers and historians have felt free to use either one, adding to the confusion and mystery.

A source is needed for the original statement above "On becoming the Hajib (Chamberlain to the Caliph) he decided to build a palace city for himself, which, if not more, was as beautiful as Medina Azahara built by Abd-ar-Rahman III". NicholasCraig (talk) 05:45, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello, I am not so easy in English, but we can purchase in Spanish or French.

There is a lot of studies about the location of Medinat al Zahira, based both in Almanzor contemporaneous literature and on archeology. I particularly recommend you « Al Madina al-Zahira segun el testimonio de las fuentes arabo-andalusies » and « Antonio Pita, « La ciudad árabe resplandeciente se oculta al lado del Guadalquivir », El Pais ». Even if one day any one conclude Medinat Al Zahara and Medinat Al Zahira are the same city, for now, its clearly not a consensus by the archaeologists and historians (and there is enough documentation to write a new article about the Almanzor city). I am going to write to Al Zahara museum to ask them written references about what the told you because it is very surprising since there are several pieces in the museum of Cordoba from Medinat Al Zahira and Califal related artifacts that are not from the Medinat Al Zahra place. v_atekor (talk) 11:08, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

As far as reliable English sources go, "Muslim Spain and Portugal: A Political History of al-Andalus" by Hugh Kennedy (a well-known historian on Islamic history) also mentions it. I will add a reference to the main page, if it helps for the future. R Prazeres (talk) 18:10, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

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Morish

You cannot say Madinat al Zahra is « morrish ». Morrish is a reference to North Africa, when Al Zahra construction of Al Andalus (surprising !). The first main problem is a political one : Alzahara has been constructed to show the new Caliph power, in Cordoba. That was a power show, against the rest of the world, against Bagadad, against Constantinople. It has been done by one of the most powerful cities of the world, but that mean a big political break down with other muslins territories. In 930 Berbers were a threat against Al Andalus, not an influence spring.

Another problem is the influence way : Alzahra received several influences, firsts from Middle Est, Constantinople, Visigoth and it has intensively reused Roman material from Cordoba for political purposes (I, the Caliph, represents the continuity of power from the Roman empire...). It has influenced posteriors constructions in North Africa, but during the beginning of the 10th centuries there is no example of such construction in north Africa, mainly because after the Arab conquest, theses territories are not yet sufficiently pacified to do so (Think there is another new fatimid Caliphate). Alzahra and Cordoba mesquite has originated a big influence in north Africa but when it has been constructed he has few influences from North Africa ; then it is not « Morrish », it is  « Andalus ». That is just the way North African people name the North African buildings constructed with Cordoban (and latter, sevillan by the 11 century...) models in mind.

Posteriors influences can be more complexes. v_atekor (talk) 15:10, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

General revisions (May 2021)

Just saying this here as a heads-up and also as a space for other editors to give feedback or raise problems: I'm going to try to revise parts of the article with additional sources (and some of the same, such as Triano 2007). There are still quite a lot of passages without citations, so in these cases I will take the liberty to rewrite them if needed. I'll make additional notes here in the future if they seem helpful. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 19:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Initial note about citations: I'm used to using the normal citation template provided by the visual editor, but the current page uses the sfn format for Triano 2007. I've simply used what was easiest to me while I'm writing so that I can focus on content, but I'll aim to come back later and convert things to a more consistent format (unless someone else beats me to it). R Prazeres (talk) 22:11, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I've added a greatly expanded descriptive section which covers most of the major documented structures. Just a heads-up that I've relied heavily but not exclusively on Arnold's 2018 book, as it's by far the most detailed English-language source I've seen, it's recent, it summarizes other research up to now, and it's cited by other authors like Jonathan Bloom (in his recent 2020 book), so it's a reasonably authoritative and very useful source for this purpose. I've also added some plans based on the plans published in both of these sources; they're not works of art, they're just designed to give some visual and spatial sense to the description of the site, in the absence of professional plans that can be uploaded to Commons. R Prazeres (talk) 01:16, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

PS: I should add that if anyone wants to improve the city plan images, or has simple improvements to suggest, feel free to do so. I can even provide you with the maps from the scholarly sources if you want to work on a better version yourself. R Prazeres (talk) 05:00, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Notes and question on the identity of "Ja'far"

Not a major issue for this topic, but I just read one author explicitly clarify that there were two "Ja'far"s under al-Hakam II, and it's not entirely clear which of them would have been the one associated with the House of Ja'far in Madinat al-Zahra, or if indeed if archeologists themselves are clear about which one. The short story for editing here is: I've revised the wording on the page to keep the name non-specific for now. Maybe this can be clarified in the future, or maybe it won't, but I'm leaving my notes here in case it's of interest later.

One Ja'far (al-Siqlabi) was a eunuch slave, and according to Brian Catlos occupied the post first, while the other Ja'far (al-Mushafi) was a member of a prominent family from Valencia. Al-Mushafi is mentioned by historians as one of the most prominent figures of his time (in part due to his relationship to al-Mansur). It sounds like the first one is the relevant figure for Madinat al-Zahra, especially if we trust Vallejo Triano, but Arnold refers to the second one. None of the sources mention the other Ja'far either way, so it feels too vague to say with confidence that it's one and not the other. For reference, here are the relevant passages from the sources I found, starting with the identification of two separate "Ja'far"s by Brian Catlos:

• Catlos (2018), "Kingdoms of Faith: A New History of Islamic Spain", page 148: "The office [of hajib] would not be revived until the reign of al-Hakam II, who appointed his slave Ja'far al-Siqlabi to the post, and subsequently -- with fatal consequences -- Ja'far al-Mushafi, a member of a long-settled, well-established, and integrated Berber family that had gained influence under Umayyad patronage."

You can find multiple mentions of Ja'far al-Mushafi by other historians due to his political importance, but by contrast they don't mention Ja'far al-Siqlabi as his predecessor. For example:

• Hugh Kennedy (1996), "Muslim Spain and Portugal: A Political History of al-Andalus", on page 101:

Al-Hakam's other lieutenant was Ja'far b. Uthman al-Mushafi. He came from an obscure Berber family from the Valencia area. His father, described as a teacher of literature (mu'addib) from Cordoba, was appointed as tutor to the young al-Hakam, and his son Ja'far became firm friends with the young prince, who took him as his secretary and made him governor of Majorca. When he became Caliph, Ja'far became his secretary and also held the office of sahib al-Madina (prefect of the city) of Cordoba. (...) Unlike Ghalib [the general of slave origin] he had a family to support him and one of them, his nephew Hisham b. Muhammad, was an influential soldier, commanding the sa'ifa on occasion.

• Pierre Guichard (1998, 2016) in "The Formation of al-Andalus, Part 1: History and Society" (edited by Manuela Marin), page 175-176:

However, it is significant that the only Valencian family to have played a leading role in fourth/tenth-century Spain was the Berber dynasty of the Mushafi, from which emerged the all-powerful minister of al-Hakam II, who was the predecessor and unfortunate rival of al-Mansur. The family, along with many others, claimed Qaysi descent, but the only information we have on its true geographical and ethnic origin is that Ibn al-Abbar tells us about 'Uthman ibn Nasr al-Mushafi, its most prominent member, the tutor of al-Hakam II: that he belonged "to the Berbers of Valencia". His son Ja'far, a childhood companion of this prince, consequently rose to the vizierate and placed all the members of his family in positions of high office.

And here are the sources I've found that talk about Ja'far explicitly in relation to Madinat al-Zahra (note also that Anderson also cites Vallejo Triano on this topic):

• Antonio Vallejo Triano (2007), "Madinat Al-Zahra; Transformation of a Caliphal City", page 16:

Since its excavation by Hernández Giménez in 1970, it has come to be hypothetically identified with the residence of an extremely high official in the caliphal administration, Ja'far ibn 'Abd al-Ra'mān, known as Ja'far “the slave”, who was hājib of al-Hakam II between the years 961 and 971. Neither textual nor archaeological evidence contradicts this hypothetical attribution.

• Glaire D. Anderson (2013), "The Islamic Villa in Early Medieval Iberia: Architecture and Court Culture in Umayyad Cordoba", page 34-35:

The eunuch Ja'far was the most notable of the palace eunuchs during the caliphal period. His career spanned the reign of Abd ar-Rahman III and al-Hakam II. His prominent involvement in the latter's additions to the Great Mosque of Cordoba make him the major figure in the production of the Umayyad state's art and architecture, and perhaps the caliph's chief architect. Ja'far first emerges in connection to Umayyad art production in the post of sahib al-tiraz, director of the palace textile workshop in 958, a position he held simultaneously, by 961, with the post of hajib under the caliph Abd ar-Rahman III. An inscription dated 960 indicates that Ja'far directed the construction of the congregational mosque in the city of Tarragona on behalf of Abd ar-Rahman III. It also gives his titles, referring to Ja'far as fata (page), a term used for Umayyad palace eunuchs who were personal attendants of the caliph, and mawla (freedman), indicating that Ja'far had been manumitted by Abd ar-Rahman III by this time. Other epigraphy the following year, 961, indicates that Ja'far held the additional title of sayf al-dawla, and had been "adopted" by the caliph as "son", since he is named at this time as Ja'far ibn Abd ar-Rahman III. (...) Indeed, along with evidence for his patronage of a house in Madinat al-Zahra' Ja'far is linked with the major architectural projects of the caliphal state. The 960s were particularly fruitful years for Ja'far. After al-Hakam's accession in 961, epigraphy attests that Ja'far personally oversaw three major projects in Cordoba in this one year alone: first, the initial work on his own private residence at Madinat al-Zahra'; second, an unidentified caliphal construction project in Cordoba (...); and third and most importantly, al-Hakam II's expansion of the prayer hall at the Great Mosque of Cordoba, a project that was completed four years later in 965.

• Felix Arnold (2017), "Islamic Palace Architecture in the Western Mediterranean: A History", page 98:

A central figure of the time was Ǧa'far al-Mušafī, who served as ḥāǧib to the caliph. (...) The excavators suggest that the building [the House of Ǧa'far] was the official seat of the ḥāǧib Ǧa'far al-Mušafī, but this identification remains hypothetical.

Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 20:22, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 15 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 11:09, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

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Medina Azahara → Madinat al-Zahra – After reviewing a lot of sources during the expansion of this page, I think it would be good to have editors reconsider the exact page title. In particular, the current page title Medina Azahara is the common Spanish name of the site, but the common rendition Madinat al-Zahra is probably preferable for the following reasons:

1) The archeological site's official name, even in Spanish, is Madinat al-Zahra, as seen on its official site.

2) "Madinat al-Zahra" reflects standard Arabic romanization, at least in English. It therefore also reflects the historical Arabic name more accurately for English readers. Whereas using the Spanish rendition of it here is arguably a little confusing or anachronistic, especially when discussing the city's history, since the city was built and destroyed long before the region became Spain (unlike, by contrast, the Alhambra, which has a long history after 1492 under that exact name in both Spanish and English).

3) More importantly, the majority of accessible English-language reliable sources (i.e. sources by scholars, museum catalogues, etc) clearly seem to use "Madinat al-Zahra", and usage in such sources is the primary criteria cited by WP:COMMONNAME. Here are examples, including some major authoritative sources:

• Publications by Antonio Vallejo Triano (the lead archeologist of the site between 1985 and 2013) in English books in 1992 (available here) and in 2007 (preview here), as well as in his Spanish publications (e.g. 1995, "Madīnāt al-Zahrā’. El Salón de Abd al-Raḥmān III" and 2010, "La ciudad califal de Madīnat al-Zahrā’. Arqueología de su excavación").
• The official guidebook of the site (also written or edited by Vallejo Triano) published in 2005, "Madinat Al-Zahra: Official Guide to the Archeological Complex" (Google Books page here)
• Jonathan Bloom's recent (2020) English-language introduction to the history of Islamic architecture in the region: "Architecture of the Islamic West: North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula, 700-1800" (preview here; see page 51 and after)
• Barrucand and Bednorz's introduction on Moorish architecture in Spain: 1992, "Moorish Architecture in Andalusia" (pdf available here, see page 61).
• Publications by D. Fairchild Ruggles , a well-known author on the history of Islamic gardens: see 2000, "Gardens, Landscape, and Vision in the Palaces of Islamic Spain" (preview here, see page 53 or after) and 2011, "Islamic Gardens and Landscapes" (preview here, see around pages 18, 45, or 152)
• The Grove Encyclopedia of Islamic Art and Architecture, published by Oxford, relevant entry here
• Encyclopedia Britannica entry
• Encyclopedia of Islam (Third edition), published by Brill, in multiple entries such as this one
• Museum With No Frontiers, relevant page here
• Felix Arnold's overview of western Islamic palaces, although it's more technical and uses the narrower Arabic transliteration "az-Zahra" instead of "al-Zahra": 2018, "Islamic Palace Architecture in the Western Mediterranean: A History" (Google preview here, see page 60)

To be clear, "Medina Azahara" is still used in a fair amount of tourism information (e.g. 1 or 2) and it is used in its UNESCO designation, so I am not opposed to keeping it as is, but it does seem like the weight of reliable sources (and the site's official name) is more consistent with both WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 22:44, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Thanks for the expansion btw. Why does the intended name show as a redlink, when it is already bolded as a redirect in the lead? Wrong hyphen? It should already redirect. Johnbod (talk) 03:05, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

  I noticed that after writing this and was surprised too. Apparently it's an uppercase distinction: "Madinat Al-Zahra" exists and redirects but apparently not "Madinat al-Zahra". If you search the name on Wikipedia without uppercase though it still sends you here, so maybe it's moot? R Prazeres (talk) 05:47, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.