Talk:Low Mass

Untitled

Byzantine Catholics use "Low Mass" to refer to an abridged liturgy. The term is not used only by Roman Catholics, perhaps this is something the article should address.

Both youtube links are broken. google video plays ok. 71.116.88.57 (talk) 18:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Edits by anonymous user in Massachusetts

Wikipedia put the automatic tag "References removed" to this edit, to indicate that it removed a text with cited sources and replaced it with one that appeared to be Original Research. I have restored the sourced text, with a correction. Esoglou (talk) 05:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The same action has been repeated, triggering again the automatic alert "references removed". Such repetition, with no discussion here, resembles vandalism.

An example of the unreferenced text inserted in place of the sourced information is the statement of opinion (WP:POV) that the use of "Missa privata" in the sense of "Low Mass" was "mistaken", in spite of its official use in all editions of the Roman Missal preceding 1962, by the Holy See, whose authority would seem to be greater than that of the editor from Massachusetts. Esoglou (talk) 16:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Missa Privata (Private Mass - one done to satisfy the Priests devotional duty) and Low Mass are NOT synonymous. Soidi keep putting in a reference to rubrics (which I correctly attached to the "mistaken") stating that all public Masses are just that, public, and to stop using the words Missa Privata, then he incomprehensibly states that they ARE the same, and uses the word Missa Privata. Missa Privata is always "mass without the people", while Low Mass invariably is used to describe a public Mass.

Low Mass is not defined by one stock phrase in the rubrics. Fortescue argued that a Missa cantata is in fact a Low, and though that isn't the usual usage, it's a defensible position. Missa lecta is used, Missa dialogo (good example - this couln't in any way be a Missa Privata), Missa simplex, it includes the exceptional public Missa solitaria. Low Mass is a common descriptive, with much variation from country to country and place to place. Missa Privata should be without music, while there are extensive treatises and Vatican instructions on inclusions of music in the public Low Mass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.233.137 (talk • contribs)

Thanks for responding. On Wikipedia it is not enough to make statements without citing the exact reliable sources on which the statements are based. One's own arguments may not be used. Read WP:OR. Until you produce exact citations that make the statements you want Wikipedia also to make, you cannot insert those ideas. What is more, you may not remove statements made by other editors if these are accompanied by valid citations of reliable sources. (Doing so would be a form of vandalism.) You can only add your own sourced statements, with the aim for instance of balancing the statements made by the sources already cited.

Whatever about today (and don't forget that not every traditionalist Catholic accepts John XXIII's Code of Rubrics as authoritative), "Missa privata" and "Missa lecta" or "Low Mass" were synonymous, as the cited sources show. This is only what the article states. It does not say that "Missa privata" meant nothing but that: on the contrary, it states that the phrase has another meaning too. If you disagree with the cited sources, you must present a source that says the two phrases were never synonymous, not just give your own opinion.

A "private Mass" (in the modern sense of "Mass without the people") celebrated with only one person assisting is still a private Mass (Mass without the people), even if that person sings something while the priest, without chanting, celebrates that Low Mass. Until recently, perhaps even after John XXIII's 1960 Code of Rubrics and down to the issuance of the 1970 Roman Missal, there was no distinction in form or terminology between a Mass celebrated with the people and one celebrated without the people: the priest said exactly the same words, even addressing that one person, male or female, as "fratres" (brothers/brethren), and using the plural forms "Orate", "vobiscum", "Benedicat vos".

Also sign your comments on the Talk page by typing four tildes: (~~~~). That simple action, when saved, produces your signature and the date and hour of your editing. Esoglou (talk) 20:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you have again inserted your own opinions instead of reporting what reliable sources say, and your latest edits must be removed. You have failed to provide citations for your statements that "Missa privata" is sometimes mistakenly referred to as Low Mass; that the 1962 edition of the Roman Missal distinguishes between Mass celebrated with the people and without the people; that Pope John XXIII authorized the use of the term "private Mass" in one particular sense, when in fact what he said was that the term "should be avoided", without distinguishing between the senses given to the term. You have also inserted something of your own into a quotation from the writer Bernier, thus falsifying the quotation. Esoglou (talk) 13:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

The renewed action by the editor who from different towns in Massachusetts removes sourced information and inserts his own undocumented opinions must be considered a form of vandalism. For example, he has again deleted the statement, supported in the article by three separaate reliable sources, that "Low Mass" in English corresponds to "missa lecta" in Latin. He has inserted several claims that have no basis outside his own mind and for which he has made no attempt to cite any source in support, one example being his claim that the personal view expressed by Fortescue a century ago, one that was contradicted by the 1960 Code of Rubrics, "is still the norm in England and Commonwealth countries". Would that editor please either cease this activity or try to present reliable sources for his edits. Esoglou (talk) 09:09, 13 October 2010 (UTC)