Talk:List of massacres of Armenians

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Dushanbe Riots

Described as massacre at least by Strohmeyer, Virgil. A Comparative Review of Some Recent Works on Armenian History in the Light of a More General Synthesis of the History of the Caucasus, the Middle East, and Central Asia

Agulis and Shusha massacres

@ZaniGiovanni: The WP:COMMONNAME of the massacre in the city of Shusha is the Shusha massacre, hence the article name reflects that fact, how come you reverted my change to make the name of the massacre consistent with the article name? Also, in Volume II of Hovannisian's Republic of Armenia series, he describes the perpetrators of the Agulis massacre to be Azerbaijani mobs and refugees from Zangezur. Here is a passage from page 236-237:

“On December 17-18 a Muslim mob, including refugees from Zangezur, sacked Lower Akulis, drove off the flocks, killed all Armenians falling into their hands, and sent the remainder fleeing to the upper town. Responding to urgent telephone appeals, Ordubad commandant Edif Bey, a Turkish captain who had served in the same capacity during the Ottoman occupation in 1918, attempted to calm the Armenians during a personal inspection on December 19. He promised to call in disciplined Turkish regulars, if necessary, from beyond the border at Bayazit or, if the situation became worse, to escort the population across the Araxes River into Persian territory or to a protected site in the Goghtan mountains.

Nevertheless, the portents of doom increased. Armed groups appeared on every side and many unfamiliar Muslims entered the town. When menacing bands approached the gates on December 24, the Armenians again asked Edif Bey and Abbas Guli Bey Tairov to intervene. That afternoon Tairov and the Shia sheikh of Ordubad arrived to disperse the crowd, but they soon reported that the troublemakers were rebels from other areas.”

Not only were the perpetrators civilians, the Azeri-Turkish commanders who were the authorities in the region did not order the destruction of Agulis since the Armenians of Akulis had submitted to their rule:

“As Muslim partisans advanced upon the mountain strongholds, Akulis pledged fidelity to the newly appointed commissar (kaimakam) of Ordubad, Abbas Guli Bey Tairov, and was in return guaranteed absolute inviolability”

Based on this, I think it's reasonable to adjust the article to reflect these facts. -Nunuxxx (talk) 05:37, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

And what do you base your other edits on? Like: Muslim civilians and militants mobs for Adana massacare. Also, see Shushi massacre, both names are significant and can be used, logically I restored one Armenians use as it's a massacre of Armenians and Armenian quarter of the city. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 12:07, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

ZaniGiovanni In regards to the Adana massacre, using "mobs" to describe disorderly and violent civilians is more consistent and appropriate with the rest of the article than arbitrarily stating "civilians and militants". Also, your point regarding the use of "Shushi massacre" is invalid, as the WP:COMMONNAME is "Shusha massacre", even if the former is also popularly used. To prove this, I will provide search results in accordance with WP:SET:

Google Scholar Search:

• "Shusha massacre": 11 results
• "Shushi massacre": 1 result
• "Shusha pogrom": 1 result
• "Shushi pogrom": 0 results

Google Advanced Book Search (hide “Tools” to see totals):

• "Shusha massacre": 694 results
• "Shushi massacre": 217 results
• "Shusha pogrom": 5,500 results
• "Shushi pogrom": 0 results

In conclusion, as you can see from above, the WP:COMMONNAME for the massacre, uses "Shusha" (6,206 results) against "Shushi" (218 results). In accordance with WP, I'll correct the wording to reflect this. -Nunuxxx (talk) 12:29, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Regarding Republic of Armenia series, I like how you selectively cite passage, out-of-context cited a passages, not showing the rest and the conclusion of the author (most importantly), quote:

• ...the Armenian girls were being tormented. He identified by name Turkish and Azerbaijani officers and local Muslim notables who had participated in the carnage and furnished evidence that the military authorities had actually planned and directed the attack. - The Republic of Armenia by Richard G. Hovannisian, p.238

It's actually pretty clear from the passages of, The Doom of Akulis (p. 234), and A Timefor More Words (p. 238), that Hovhannisian puts the blame on Azeri and Turk authorities as well. Yet somehow, as a self-proclaimed person who studied the subject in great depth, you didn't understand this by reading his book, and actually tried scrambling unfinished quotes from different pages to justify you edit.

I would also like to point out that Turkish–Armenian War had citation for 250,000 figure only on a different page (p. 155) from the same source, and if you actually clicked at the article itself, it's hard to miss that there are 2 other sources in the infobox supporting this figure, yet in the same edit, you've put on it for some reason. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:48, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Hovannisian does indeed lead the reader to the conclusion that the massacre was orchestrated by military authorities with his quotes, however, the seemingly genuine goodwill expressed by Edif Bey to the Armenians of Akulis in the quotes I cited above indicates that the order to destroy Akulis did not originate from him, rather from lower military officers (together with mobs and refugees) acting beyond his control, since he had promised if necessary to call the presence of "disciplined Turkish regulars ... at Bayazit", and even considered the following last-resort measures to protect the Armenian population:

"if the situation became worse, to escort the population across the Araxes River into Persian territory or to a protected site in the Goghtan mountains" -The Republic of Armenia by Richard G. Hovannisian, p.237

These measures by Edif Bey, the commandant of Ordubad, offered to the Armenians implies he intended to protect their lives due to their pledge of fealty to the local Muslim administration. However, military authorities beyond his control prevailed during the tumultuous period, therefore, I would not be opposed to restoring the original wording with the revision of "Azerbaijani-Turkish military authorities" as the perpetrators of the Akulis massacre. - 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 12:26, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

The source makes it very clear about the involvement of Azeri and Turkish authorities, as apparent by the passages I cited and the conclusion of the author himself. Your own interpretation is irrelevant here, and you should restore the authorities as perpetrators. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 12:46, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Please don't make comments like "your own interpretation" and linking it to WP:OR, it's mean and creates a toxic environment in an already hostile topic area. To reiterate, the author doesn't actually state it, rather leads the reader to that conclusion with the nuance/intricacy that it occurred beyond the control of the local military authority, which is important to note given the complicated historical-political background of the conflict, which despite of, I already stated I am open to changing the perpetrators to "Azerbaijani-Turkish military authorities and Azerbaijani mobs and refugees". - 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 23:48, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Please stop asking me to do stuff, this is a last warning from me. I'll resort the right of calling "your own interpretations" as your own shall you do so instead of looking at the author's conclusion and giving your own view based on some quotes you read, while leaving out entire passages. And "leading the reader" is when the author tries to show their view of the situation and portray it to the reader, hence author's conclusion.

One thing I'm still struggling to figure here: how you haven't read all of this in the first place and tried to defend your removal of authorities, especially when you self-proclaimed yourself as vastly knowledgeable about the subject? Moreover, you provided all kinds of out-of-context quotes from Hovannisian's book to defend your point, but somehow, you missed the important one directly accusing Azeri-Turk military authorities. And only after I showed the exact quote and passages, you started admitting he "leads the reader to that conclusion". It's almost like you were cherry-picking Hovhannisian's quotes? Wouldn't be much of a BOLD assumption on my part, would it? You can reword now by your suggested version, please. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 00:26, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

• "giving your own view based on some quotes you read, while leaving out entire passages."

You seem to be missing the fact that I presented my understanding (with quotes) that the chief military authority in the region didn't order the Akulis massacre, I have not "cherrypicked" anything, rather, I presented the same facts Hovannisian did. You however expanded upon that by including passages that insinuate the involvement of military authorities, which isn't the simple/entire truth due to the nuances that I explained in the earlier reply.

• "And only after I showed the exact quote and passages, you started admitting he "leads the reader to that conclusion". It's almost like you were cherry-picking Hovhannisian's quotes? Wouldn't be much of a BOLD assumption on my part, would it?"

Actually it would, and I just explained quite consisely why exactly that is: because the conclusion is more nuanced than one would like to believe, especially in such a controversial and emotional topic involving the massacre of innocents. Unless you have another point to add to the discussion, I don't see merit in debating this further, I think I've made myself clear. - 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 00:43, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

I think it's time you enacted on your proposal. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 01:06, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Btw, the source also mentions "local Muslim notables", so just adding "authorities" is more appropriate. The book also says “commissars”, further proving it went beyond “military authorities”. I'll change the wording if you have no objection. Cheers, ZaniGiovanni (talk) 18:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

"local Muslim notables" could refer to anyone well-known in the region, not necessarily an authoritative figure. About Akulis, the main commissar mentioned is Abbas Guli Bey Tairov, by my understanding the de-facto head of the local administration, who isn't said to have direct involvement in the massacre. Also, I think using "authorities" is a bit vague considering the Entente powers considered the Nakhichevan district part of Armenia (I can evidence this fact), despite its predominantly Muslim residents, therefore, in my view, this Muslim uprising in Nakhichevan shouldn't be given more credit or legitimacy than for what it actually was. In conclusion, I believe with the limited information available that simply "Azerbaijani-Turkish military authorities" is appropriate rather than referencing a civil authority being involved in the massacre.

Also, I think the "Azerbaijani Army" text should be linked to the Armed Forces of Azerbaijan given that the latter was founded in 1918, therefore, it isn't anachronistic to state that they were essentially the same organisation conducting the massacres. Let me know what you think. - 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 11:05, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Also, I checked the citation for the "250,000" figure for the Turkish-Armenian War massacres, and found that the figure (on page 155 of The history of the Armenian genocide by Vahakn N. Dadrian) relates to 1895-96 massacres in a page assessing the varying claims and estimations of different historians, and is unrelated to the 1920 Turkish-Armenian war, therefore, the number "250,000" is misplaced and should belong to the Hamidian massacre section, in my view. - 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 12:01, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nunuxxx: As the creator of the Agulis massacre article, I can assure you that it was in fact Edif Bey who ordered the massacre. While the Hovannisian source is a little ambiguous about this, it is not the only source that exists. Mikail Mamedov[1] in the Nationalities Papers Journal published by Cambridge University Press, reveals that:

…the massacre committed by Turkish troops on Christmas of 1919 in the midst of the Armenian Genocide, 1915–1923. At that time, Turkish commander Adif-bey ordered the mass execution of the Armenian population in the author's home village Aylis (Agulis in Armenian). Almost all Armenians were killed, with the exception of a few young girls who by the late 1980s had turned into gray-haired women.

[2]

Mamedov goes into detail that the Azerbaijani gendarmerie and the Turkish republican army JOINED the muslim mob of refugees and aided them with calvary. Adif-Bey gathering the Armenians of the town to say a ceasefire had been reached was actually not a sign of his goodwill, but a tactic of massacre as once he gathered everyone he ordered his firing squad to kill the townspeople (Mamedov, 975-976). It was not simply an “uprising,” it was a deliberate anti-Armenian massacre and it is considered by modern scholarship to be a part of the greater Armenian Genocide. I have full access to the Mamedov source if you need further clarification. I’ve been meaning to update the Agulis massacre article with this information. TagaworShah (talk) 06:38, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying that. Indeed Hovannisian's interpretation does possess some ambiguities regarding who was precisely to blame, so it is good to have another source to clarify details. Also, I think you may have misinterpreted me by my use of the word "uprising"–I was referring to the greater Muslim revolts against Armenian governance in July 1919 in Sharur-Nakhichevan and the peripheries of Kars and Surmalu; Without these uprisings, Akulis would have remained under Armenian administration and Turkish regular troops would not have been able to support the local Azerbaijanis in massacring 10-12 thousand Armenians throughout Nakhichevan in the latter part of 1919. - 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 07:57, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Nunuxxx TagaworShahI'll change to authorities per new source.

• "Also, I checked the citation for the "250,000" figure for the Turkish-Armenian War massacres, and found that the figure (on page 155 of The history of the Armenian genocide by Vahakn N. Dadrian) relates to 1895-96 massacres in a page assessing the varying claims and estimations of different historians, and is unrelated to the 1920 Turkish-Armenian war, therefore, the number "250,000" is misplaced and should belong to the Hamidian massacre section, in my view."

I'll address the 250,000 figure later when I have time to check the source and other 2 sources cited in Turkish–Armenian War article's infobox. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 13:03, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I looked at the sources and added Akçam, who states 198,000 figure. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 18:06, 22 January 2022 (UTC)