Talk:List of major opera composers/Archive 1

Title change

In order to make this list more specific, and to obviate confusion with other lists, I have added 'major' to the title. I hope this is acceptable to everybody.

Kleinzach 22:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Non notables

The following are non-notable, in some cases obscure:

• Rutland Boughton
• Ignacy Dobrzyński
• Nicola Fago
• Raoul Gehringer
• François Auguste Gevaert
• Daron Hagen
• Andrea Luchesi
• Miki Minoru
• Josef Mysliveček
• Marţian Negrea
• Václav Nelhýbel
• Olga Neuwirth
• Horatio Parker
• Giovanni Pescetti
• Gabriel Pierné
• Giuseppe Sarti
• Antonio Salieri
• Robert Steadman

Would anyone object if I removed them?

Kleinzach 02:02, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

As there have been no objections/comments I have deleted those listed above.

Kleinzach 21:44, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Piccinni/Piccini

What is the best form: Niccolò Piccinni, or Niccolò Piccini?
S.

Both the Penguin and Oxford dictionaries of music give "Piccinni" as the primary form, with Penguin offering "Piccini" as an alternative - I'll check Grove later if I remember to do so. It appears that the spelling with two Ns is more common. --Camembert

I checked Grove - it says "Piccinni" with "Piccini" as an alternative (together with "Nicola" as an alternative for "Niccolò"). --Camembert

Criteria for inclusion

I can't say I'm particularly interested in an extended discussion of miunteae on the question, but feel that we need to have some sort of criteria that would define the basis for inclusion on this list. Looking through the history, there was once such a paragraph.

• "This list is intended to reflect those composers who have made the greatest impact on the modern operatic repertory. Usually, but not always, this has been through sustained output of several major works. For this reason, many opera composers have been omitted, including composers who have works in the standard operatic repertory.

A biography of each composer can be found under each link." (supplied by user 141.211.62.118 in August 2004)

The first sentence was modified to

• "This is a selective list of opera composers who have made the greatest impact on the modern operatic repertory. " (User BaronLarf, in June 2005, who removed the third sentence "For this reason…" a few days later.)

This was then reduced to

• "This is a list of notable opera composers." (User Sarge Baldy, September 2005).

I think that initial paragraph has a lot going for it. It begs the question of how any post WWII opera might be included (or post 1970s), but perhaps that would be part of the point of the page: these operas are too recent to be judged.

Alternatively, given that this started in 2002, and was intended simply as a list of opera composers, perhaps the time has come to delete the list as exactly the sort of thing we're only going to talk in circles about. The category system provides this information. JGF Wilks 07:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that this list is of limited value. I would not oppose deletion. If it remains - as a list for those new to opera - it should be kept short - perhaps two dozen maximum, including only names recognized throughout the opera world, in all opera-performing countries.

Kleinzach 09:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

---

Beethoven only wrote one opera. Why should he be included?

Sign please! However to answer your question: Beethoven wrote an important opera, contributing more to the history of opera than most of the other composers listed.. A case of quality rather than quantity. - Kleinzach 21:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

And why single out Beethoven? What about Bartok and Debussy? --GuillaumeTell 21:21, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Arthur Sullivan major?

I see Sullivan has just been added. Is he a major opera composer? - Kleinzach 00:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Gustave?

Hmm, Gustave Charpentier? I'm not really sure he makes the weight. Marc-Antoine C. maybe. Smetana should definitely be there and probably Cavalli. Dvorak? Ravel, I'd say, too. Otherwise fine --Folantin 20:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with deleting Gustave Charpentier. Not with adding Ravel (only minor operas), Not Cavalli - hardly performed. Not Dvorak as only one of his operas is performed at all regularly. What do other people think? - Kleinzach 01:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Cavalli's an important composer in opera history. He's more performed nowadays than Alessandro Scarlatti (also historically significant though, so he should stay). Cavalli has made it to Glyndebourne in recent years. I vote for adding him and Smetana. --Folantin 08:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with adding Smetana. The words "in opera history" don't appear in the title of this article. IMO the list already has a number of marginal names that probably shouldn't be there if the list is to fulfill a useful purpose (i.e. info. for opera novices). Anyway let's see what other people think. - Kleinzach 12:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I definitely think Marc-Antoine Charpentier should be added, and probably Gustave removed. Mak (talk) 18:35, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, M.-A. Charpentier and Cavalli, to fill out the 17th century. This list is a bit weak on the Baroque. Cavalli was arguably the most popular Italisn opera composer of the 17th c. and he's probably more performed now than Haydn (wonderful music in his operas but never an important figure in opera history or ever widely performed). --Folantin 07:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. Let's set up a vote then. As a first step can interested parties please produce a complete list of deletions/candidates? - Kleinzach 09:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Candidates for addition/deletion July 2006 (part 1)

Delete: Gustave Charpentier: only really wrote one opera (famous for one aria), rarely performed nowadays. Not really a "major". Folantin

• Delete per nom. Kleinzach 13:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Ditto. Moreschi 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. --GuillaumeTell 21:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. --Doublea 21:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Now deleted - Kleinzach 14:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Add: Bedřich Smetana. Founder of Czech national opera. Czech opera is an important sub-group (Dvorak, Janacek, Martinu and so on). At least one opera (The Bartered Bride) in the international repertoire.Folantin

• Add per nom. Kleinzach 13:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Agreed. Moreschi 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• I'd prefer to see Dvorak in the list, not that I have anything against Smetana. --GuillaumeTell 21:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Can you please add Dvorak at the bottom of the list so that we can vote on him properly? It's confusing if you make a recommendation under another composer. - Kleinzach 22:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• I agree. Add Smetana and Dvorak. --Doublea 21:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Now added - Kleinzach 15:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Add: Francesco Cavalli. Most important Italian 17th century opera composer after Monteverdi. According to the Viking Opera Guide: "One of the major composers of the 17th century, Cavalli played a vital role in establishing opera as a genre...Cavalli's works played a vital part in initiating the tradition of opera performance in numerous cities (including Naples). His fame reached beyond Italy to England, Austria and particularly France...In an era that constantly demanded new operas, Cavalli's were unusual for their sustained popularity; today many have been revived with considerable success". According to the same source, Cavalli's Giasone was "the most popular opera of the 17th century".Folantin

• No. We have no articles on his operas except one minimal stub and his biography is also short. Articles should be written first before we give prominence to a composer. Moreover this is not a list of composers of historically important, but seldom performed works. Kleinzach 13:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• No per Kleinzach. Moreschi 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

  OK, but he should be admitted in future once we have more articles. He has been performed pretty widely in recent decades, mainly in continental Europe in smaller theatres (only small forces are required to perform his works).--Folantin 15:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• I completely disagree with you Kleinzach. I think we should add him to the list. Just because no one has worked much so far on seventeenth century opera so far doesn't mean it should be ignored on lists of important works/operas. Rather it should be highlighted that coverage is minimal, in order to encourage people to work on important areas that are lacking. I'm working on making sure that Charpentier and Lully's most important works at least have stubs. I suppose Cavalli will be next on my list. Mak (talk) 17:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Excellent if you can write about him, but I think we have a responsibility to link to substantial information. If that doesn't exist we are just leading readers up the (WP) garden path. (It's worth noting that substantial articles do exist for Borodin and Saint-Saëns and other 19th-century composers.) - Kleinzach 23:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• No from me. I've seen several Cavalli operas and they really aren't in the same class as Monteverdi or, say, Rameau. --GuillaumeTell 21:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

That's pretty subjective though, GT. Personally, I think Donizetti is vastly inferior to Mozart and Verdi, but there's no reason he shouldn't be on the list. The Baroque is pretty thinly represented. There are good reasons why a Cavalli article will be necessarily shorter than that of many later composers, namely most of the detailed information about his life simply hasn't survived (the same goes for many, many composers before the 18th century). --Folantin 08:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Nominations for these selected lists always tend to be subjective. Re lack of detailed historical info on Cavalli, I don't think this adequately explains why there is still only one stub on his operatic output. I suggest writing some articles, then proposing him afterwards. Is that OK? - Kleinzach 09:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I support the addition of Cavalli, the greatest Italian opera composer of the Baroque period. --Al Pereira(talk) 01:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Add Marc-Antoine Charpentier. Along with Lully and Rameau, one of the three major composers of French Baroque opera. According to Viking, his Médéé is "arguably the finest French opera of the 17th century, Lully's Armide notwithstanding". The revival in Charpentier's fortunes has been a notable phenomenon of the past few decades. --Folantin 12:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Add per nom. Kleinzach 13:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Ditto. Moreschi 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Definitely add. Mak (talk) 17:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Agreed. --Doublea 21:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Now added - Kleinzach 15:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Delete: George Gershwin: only one opera. not mainstream enough for this list. - Kleinzach 13:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, unless anyone really wants an American composer on the list.--Folantin 15:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Probably keep; certainly would be thought of as in this list by Joe Bloggs on the street in both Britain and America. Moreschi 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - primarily a composer of musicals. --GuillaumeTell 21:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, in my opinion, no significance to opera. --Doublea 21:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Now deleted - Kleinzach 14:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Delete: Gian-Carlo Menotti; Not major enough or performed enough IMO, after all this is a very select list. Hans Werner Henze, Olivier Messiaen,Luigi Dallapiccola, Michael Tippett etc are not on it, - Kleinzach 13:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete.--Folantin 15:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Ditto. Moreschi 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. --Doublea 21:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Now deleted - Kleinzach 14:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Delete: Alessandro Scarlatti; No opera articles and not performed enough to qualify IMO. - Kleinzach 13:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Relatively important but currently overshadowed by Handel.--Folantin 15:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Ditto. Moreschi 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. No operas in the standard repetoire. --Doublea 21:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Now deleted - Kleinzach 14:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Delete: Arthur Sullivan; not mainstream enough for this list. Kleinzach 13:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delete.--Folantin 15:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Not mainstream enough! For many people the Savoy operas are more mainstream for them than Mozart or Handel. Moreschi 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but are these people really part of the opera world? I don't think so. Many G&S fans have no interest in the wider repertory. - Kleinzach 16:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Now deleted - Kleinzach 14:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)