Talk:List of governors of Roman Britain

Aurelius Arpagius

Is Aurelius Arpagius really a governor of 1 of the the 4 british provinces? he still carries the title "pr praetor" on the one inscription (RIB1912) we have of his. I suspect his governorship is prior to the division of the province by Diocletian.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.233.216.16 (talk • contribs) 22:02, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion for updating

This list should be revised against Anthony Richard Birley, The Roman government of Britain (Oxford: University Press, 2005). Since a new copy is about $125, this may take a while for someone to tackle -- hopefully before Birley's work becomes outdated. :-/ llywrch (talk) 17:17, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm concerned about the inclusion of *Lucius Artorius Castus (acting governor c. 187 – c. 191) when it rests on a very dubious and highly-contested hypothesis. No-one apart from Malcor and her collaborators () accepts this. Keith Fitzpatrick-Matthews (talk) 11:41, 9 February 2021 (UTC) = User:Kjmatthews 11:21, 9 February 2021

References

• Remove Lucius Ulpius Marcellus from list of Antonine Governors. I pasted this in error. Should read 'unknown senatorial governor'. Please do not allow someone to enter equestrian Lucius Artorius Castus as this is hugely speculative. :

• With regard to governors of Britain in the second century and specially the claim the equestrian officer Lucius Artorius Castus was acting governor in the late second century.

There were two main types of province in the second and early third century. Those provinces that reported to the senate were called senatorial provinces and were administered by senatorial proconsuls. Those provinces where the governor reported direct to the emperor were called imperial provinces and he was a propraetorian legate, also of senatorial rank. Egypt was an exception to this and run by an equestrian preafectus along with a number of minor provinces administered by equestrian procurators.

Britain was a major imperial province and was always governed by someone of senatorial rank prior to the mid-third century. The surviving inscriptions for governors of Britain in the second and early third centuries all give the title as variations of the following: LEG.AUG.PR.PR. This can be expanded to: leg(ato) Aug(usti) pr(o) pr(aetore), which is translated to a propraetorian legate. Equestrians did not replace senatorial legates as legionary commanders or governors in Britain until the time of Emperor Gallienus, ad 260–8. None of the attested governors of Britain prior to the mid-third century were of equestrian rank and referred to as praefectus legionis or dux. The provinces acquired equestrian praesides at different times from the 260s to 270s. It follows there is no evidence for an equestrian governor of Britain in this period.

There is only one late source that hints at the possibility of equestrians being over promoted and this blames Perennis the Praetorian Prefect under Commodus. Neither Cassius Dio or Herodian mention this version and instead provide a different narrative and cause for the death of Perennis. Only the fourth century Historia Augusta states that Perennis, because of the war in Britain had dismissed ‘certain senators’ and placed equestrians ‘in command of the soldiers’. However it is not clear if this means the senatorial tribunes, legates or the the Governor. Regardless of this the Historia Augusta states Perennis was killed precisely because he over promoted equestrians therefore it is unlikely there would have been similar appointments after 185. Indeed the practice of favouring senators over equestrians, continued into the Severan period.

There are some gaps in the record but we do have evidence of who would step up as acting governor if one were to be removed or die in office. Aside from the senatorial legates of the legions there was a civilian senatorial Iuridicus. We have one example from Britain, Marcus Antius Crescens Calpurnianus, serving as acting governor during the reign of Commodus possibly in 185 when the previous governor, Ulpius Marcellus, was recalled.

In this period no equestrians were appointed to govern regions in which senatorial legates were posted. It was not until the reign of Septimus Severus that we see equestrians being given command of three new legions Parthica I, II and III. Although even at this point they were referred to as praefectus vice legati, (the prefect acting in place of the legate).

Nor can the word Dux be used to assume an official title in the second century. Instead it was used as a descriptor, simply meaning commander, and evolved during the Severan period. The first use of Dux to refer to an official post was Dux Ripae based at Duro Europas c. 240s. These changes did not lead to senators being replaced by equestrians prior to Gallienus, in ad 260.

References Birley, Anthony, The Roman Government of Britain, (Oxford University Press, Oxford, 2005). Cassius Dio, Roman History, book 73.9 Davenport, Caillan, A History of the Roman Equestrian Order, (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2019). Herodian History of the Roman Empire since the Death of Marcus Aurelius 1.9 Historia Augusta, The Life of Commodus, 6.1

TonySullivanBooks (talk) 00:08, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

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TonySullivanBooks (talk) 00:08, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

References

Hi @TonySullivanBooks: Do you have a conflict of interest with this topic or the sources you want to use? If not, you can add this information yourself. If you need help with editing, please ask your questions in the WP:TEAHOUSE or at the WP:HELPDESK. Z1720 (talk) 19:27, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

• This is in reply to this message: Hi @TonySullivanBooks: Do you have a conflict of interest with this topic or the sources you want to use? If not, you can add this information yourself. If you need help with editing, please ask your questions in the WP:TEAHOUSE or at the WP:HELPDESK. Z1720 (talk) 19:27, 9 December 2021 (UTC):
• I have been told I have a COI although I can't find that message. It's because initially I cited my own book. It did tell me not to change things unilaterally. Nor can I navigate easily to the any of the pages you or previous messages have suggested. Even when I do I rarely understand a word that's written and then can't navigate back to the pages I was on previously. In short I don't understand how any of this works. What I do know is there are inaccuracies on some pages. They are due to proponents of a fringe theory trying to push a connection between Lucius Artorius Castus and the Arthurian legend. This requires them placing Castus in Britain in the late second century. And making him an equestrian governor of Britain and the word DUX being interpreted as leading all three legions. However his stone cannot be dated beyond Antonine to Severan, c. 160-240. All governors of Britain were of senatorial rank until the second half of the third century. Dux was a descriptor in the second century and evolved during the Severan period with the first attested use as a title in c. 245.

On this page the information was corrupted by someone adding Lucius Artorius Castus to the list under the Antonine Period when we know every single governor was senatorial rank and every single inscription was pro-praetorian legate. None were equestrian and none referred to 'dux'. I'm happy to change things unilaterally but I'm not sure who is sending me messages. Are you some sort of administrator? :

• none:

TonySullivanBooks (talk) 11:07, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

References

Hi @TonySullivanBooks: I received your email and read your message above. I am not an administrator, but I am a volunteer with some experience on Wikipedia. Yes, it looks like you have a conflict of interest because you want to cite your own book as a source. Please read WP:COI carefully and if you want to use your book as a source, please use this link to submit a request: Wikipedia:Edit Request Wizard/COI.

As for your request, I am not going to evaluate it at this time because there are lots of requests in the queue, and in the interest of fairness I want to evaluate them first. I am also not going to comment on whether the information in the article is correct, as I have not looked at the sources. Another editor may assess the above edits without pinging me. Z1720 (talk) 14:46, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi TonySullivanBooks Do you have sources besides your own book that you can use to verify this information? If so, it sounds like you are okay to go ahead and make the requested change. Marking approved to make the change, on the condition that sources besides your own book are used. If other editors have concerns about the information, then it can be discussed here on the talk page. Spencer^T•C 05:58, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes the leading authority of the Government in Roman Britain is Birley, Anthony, The Roman Government of Britain, (Oxford University Press, Oxford, 2005).

He lists all the known governors and there are no equestrian governors at the time in question. Every single one he lists is of senatorial rank. He actually does cover the equestrian career of L. Artorius Castus on page 355 and it is clear he was an equestrian camp prefect and the word dux is simply a reference to an ad hoc temporary command of detachments likely to Armenia. Birley dates this to the campaign of 215.

The leading expert on Roman inscriptions is RSO Tomlin, Tomlin, R.S.O., who agrees with Birley although dates him top the 163 Armenian campaign of Lucius Verus accompanying the governor of Britannia Statius Priscus to the east (Britannia Romana, Roman Inscriptions and Roman Britain, (Oxbow Books, Oxford, 2020).

TonySullivanBooks (talk) TonySullivanBooks (talk) 19:28, 8 July 2022 (UTC)