Talk:List of congressional candidates who received campaign money from the National Rifle Association

Floated

Not sure if this list belongs in any particular categories.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:49, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

This article seems to be pushing a WP:POV. Why single out the NRA and not every other source of campaign contributions to members of Congress (including, just to underline the point, other pro-gun organizations)? --R'n'B (call me Russ) 17:27, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Gun politics is and will continue to be an important topic. And the list doesn't push a particular point of view; for example, a gun enthusiast may love guns, like the NRA, approve of their positions, and say, great, they're doing what I want. It's just a list. The information can be useful for NRA supporters as well as NRA detractors.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:31, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

The title may need to change. It is specific to 2016 cycle. Legacypac (talk) 21:01, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

So, either it's gonna be turned into a dense database of statistics, updated every election cycle, or inspire a glut of year-specific lists. Ug --Animalparty! (talk) 23:18, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

or we could just move it to List of congresspersons who received campaign money from the NRA in 2016 and never need to update it again. There would need to be sources for any other election cycle list. No different than the lists for recurring sporting events. Legacypac (talk) 23:23, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

There are no physical limits to the size of a list. So it can grow. If information about the 2018 cycle becomes known, it can be added.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:29, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Don't forget 2014, 2012, and 1990. All data must be on Wikipedia. --Animalparty! (talk) 00:31, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Changing page name

Hey Legacypac you should really get consensus before changing the page name, particularly when an article is under AfD.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:34, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

The list as presented is all 2016. There are lists out there of "money to date" so without the 2016 it is confusing. It does not include either past or future data. If you have past data election cycle data start another page and link them. In 2020 we can do another list. Legacypac (talk) 23:42, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes but it's easy to add 2018 data to the list since there's a column to list the election cycle year. Well, leave it for now, let's see what happens, but in the future, try to get consensus first, okay?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:50, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

2016/2018 contributions

I see that some of the contributions have been changed from 2016 to 2018. I would have thought it more informative to have a column for each election cycle (from 2016 forward, at least). This will be more informative. For instance, if Rick Scott had run for senator in 2016, and then again in 2018 (I know this can't happen, but bear with my hypothetical here), and his NRA contribution went WAY down due to his support for anti-NRA laws in Florida post-Parkland, it would be useful information for potential voters. So I propose that we have a 2016 column and a 2018 column and add subsequent congressional election years as time goes on. Paulmlieberman (talk) 18:59, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

If you'd like to do the work of rearranging the columns (or are skilled enough at programming to have the computer rearrange it) I'm fine with that. I'd just like to point out that by clicking on the sort arrows for the election cycle year, the totals for the same congressperson will be side by side.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 19:11, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Tom, I am a software developer, so I could, in theory, write some code. But are you saying there's a program being run to generate this table from the data pulled from the Center for Responsive Politics? Paulmlieberman (talk) 14:10, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Paul, yes there is a program being run called "tom sulcer" (me -- I've been manually inputting the data.) I'm a handyman today, but years back I used to work in market research, and I could program computers with MS-DOS and BASIC. There was this really nifty text processing program called ZEdit and I could program it to combine a bunch of repetitive steps in one keystroke. That was decades ago; I miss ZEdit! But if you wish to reorganize the columns I'll follow your lead. Maybe all we'd need would be two columns -- $$$ for 2016, and $$$ for 2018. And we wouldn't need the 'election cycle year' column (with data like '2016' or '2018' since that would be indicated at the top of the column.)--Tomwsulcer (talk) 15:37, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Tom, I've now got access to the raw data from OpenSecrets.org. I see that this money comes from PACs and individuals. It will take me a while to figure out how they calculate the totals from NRA-related PACs and individuals (and how they know they are NRA), but I should eventually be able to automate it, running a Perl script on the data to generate a table like the one you created by hand. Paulmlieberman (talk) 15:19, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Great -- I'll follow your lead.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 18:00, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Also the 2018 numbers are perhaps premature -- since the cycle is happening while we type back and forth, and the 2018 numbers won't be finalized until, well, 2019. So researchers who use the list to try to make comparisons may find that their effort doesn't mean much at this point.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 19:13, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

How does this not qualify as a violation of NPOV? How is it notable?

This list is the only such entry on Wikipedia; there is no other list that compiles candidates who received contributions from any other organization. According to Open Secrets, the sole source of this entire list, the NRA ranks 570th for contributors to campaigns in the 2020 cycle.

How is this list notable? How is it neutral in any way? --2601:18C:8802:AE10:938:81F1:F224:8297 (talk) 03:09, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

• About neutrality -- The article doesn't take sides politically in that it lists congresspersons and senators of either party who received money. It does not make any statements, either for gun rights or for gun control; it just lists facts. That there is 'no other list' is irrelevant.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 11:06, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
• About notability -- there are numerous sources saying that this subject of giving $$$ to politicians is notable. Every few weeks there are incidents of gun violence in the news. The NRA is highly notable, along with what it does, and which politicians it gives money to.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 11:06, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

The existence of the list violates NPOV in that it presents only one side of the lobbying effort. I agree with your comment regarding statements for or against (ie, editorializing), but that isn't the limit of NPOV. This article does not represent the issus fairly or proportionately, and inherently covers one side rather than both sides of a debate that is well covered by reliable third party sources.

In regards to notability, does this mean that there should be at least 569 other lists/articles covering every other organization that makes more direct contributions than the NRA does? Housing, homes and real estate are constantly in the news for a litany of reasons; why is there no list about the substantial contributions made by the National Association or Realtors?

I agree that the NRA, their lobbying, their influence and public image is notable, and thats reasonably well covered in their main article and several related ones. I question the neutrality, notability and overall utility of this one. 2601:18C:8802:AE10:938:81F1:F224:8297 (talk) 19:26, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I think the anonymous user making this complaint has a point (and, for the record, I am rabidly anti-NRA). The reason this list is important has to do with the way the NRA has warped the American political process with its money over the years. Currently, gun control advocates are beginning to outspend the NRA (which may be due in part to the NRA's internal crisis). Perhaps we should change the title to something like List of congressional candidates' gun-related campaign contributions, and show the amounts they get from gun control advocacy groups as well. There should be a link to this article from Gun politics in the United States to give it context. Paulmlieberman (talk) 15:31, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Paulmlieberman you make a good point; maybe it is possible to add to this list the lobbying efforts by anti-gun organizations, and change the title accordingly as suggested. It's work; right now I'm busy writing my third book.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 19:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Looks like we hit edit at the same time - below is my response to Paul. While I respectfully disagree with both of you on the notability of the topic, I think Paul's suggestion is a good compromise, and would certainly improve the neutrality of the article.

Original response as follows -

I appreciate your response and your transparency given the subject of neutrality. For what it's worth I am not an NRA member nor am I affiliated with them, but I do generally side with them on the topic of gun policy.

I believe adding contributions by gun control groups (and perhaps other gun rights groups) would solve the NPOV issue but I still question notability. Topics like the environment, abortion, tax policy and others have similar or higher levers of direct contributions. Wouldn't it stand to reason that there would be similar lists for those topics as well? 2601:18C:8802:AE10:938:81F1:F224:8297 (talk) 19:40, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Whether there are lists or no lists for other topics is irrelevant. What matters is whether the topic of lobbyist contributions is notable. There are sources in the current article suggesting the topic is highly notable. Every time there is a mass shooting there is press coverage; but nothing happens other than 'thoughts and prayers' and the issue of why nothing happens is related to the flows of money coming from the confluence of pro-gun lobbies.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 22:14, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

References

add NRA money contributions after 2018?

This list/article ("List of congressional candidates who received campaign money from the National Rifle Association") current only lists donations of 2016 and 2018. OpenSecrets now has NRA money contributions of 2020 and 2022. --EarthFurst (talk) 06:57, 9 June 2022 (UTC)