Talk:List of ultras of the Malay Archipelago

Recent page move and proposed new name

This article has recently been unilaterally moved from List of Ultras of Indonesia to List of Ultras of Malay Archipelago. The editor who made the move has expressed these concerns at User talk:J. Patrick Fischer#Tatamailau and List of Ultras of Indonesia which I assume are more or less the reasons for the article rename. Personally I don't think the name the editor chose is the best to use here. The term Malay Archipelago includes both New Guinea and the Philippines, neither of which are included in this particular ultras page. The term Sunda Islands is far more accurate in indicating the islands included within this page.

I propose moving the page from its current state, List of Ultras of Malay Archipelago, to List of Ultras of the Sunda Islands. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 21:55, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, we have several choices, but the list would have to be cleaned up in every case:

1. List of Ultras of Indonesia: List only the Ultras of the state of Indonesia, exclude Malaysian Borneo, Brunei and East Timor.
2. List of Ultras of Malay Archipelago: Include the Philippines, but exclude the island of New Guinea (According German article New Guinea is laying on the Austalian Continental shelf, which exclude it.)
3. List of Ultras of Sunda islands: Exclude the Maluku Islands and New Guinea

The old lemma was unacceptable for the existing list, because it added territories to Indonesia, which are definitly not part of it. That's why I changed the lemma. Better an incomplete list, than a list with wrong contensts. Anyhow, the list was incoherent, adding Malaysian Borneo and East Timor, but only list the west part of New Guinea. ;-) Another possibility would have been to delete all non-Indonesian mountains from the list, but this would be a lost of information.

Now it only has to be decided, which selection should be used. I wouldn't have a problem with any of the three, as long as the content is correct. Greetings, --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 08:30, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, my post was unclear/confused on the island of New Guinea. Thanks for explaining everything and breaking it down into the three options. I am interested now in the second option. Keep current page name and we could add a section and a note that reads something like: Philippines: See List of Ultras of the Philippines. Then for the New Guinea peaks we could have a similar note directing to List of Ultras of Oceania which currently lists all the ultras on New Guinea, right? Btw, I still get easily confused by New Guinea; Papua New Guinea; Papua and West Papua, Indonesia.

With these notes in place, without any loss of information we can then exclude the Indonesian New Guinea peaks (the Papua section) from this list I suppose, but could you expand on that some? You say the German article excludes New Guinea from Malay Archipelago? The English article Australia (continent) also includes New Guinea, but we do not exclude it from Malay Archipelago based on this. Or should we? --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 10:36, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I have added a couple notes that direct to the other lists for Philippines and New Guinea. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 15:55, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

It is absolutely right: under this name the article should include the Philippines, but not (western) New Guinea. Even if this seems to be often handled differently in the English speaking world, it is geographically correct and there is a political problem, too, as Indonesian control of New Guinea is (just as it was the case for East Timor - or even less!) actually not according to International Law (in respect of Self-determination - Paoli). See also the discussion on the Seven Summits and the highest peak of the Australian continent.

There is, adding to the three above, another possibility: rename the article ultras of ′Indonesian Archipelago′ and make clear, this is not a political view but a geographical category (including islands that partly are within the territory of other states). Thus you can leave the Philippines and keep Western New Guinea in a special section stressing that it is one of the islands but geologically part of the Australian continent... This allows to keep in more information. Including the Philippines would broaden this view though - why not do another list (under this title) without New Guinea and all islands in one table, so you can divide those by the table functions?--217.232.78.145 (talk) 15:37, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I do not wish to speak for user J Patrcik Fischer, but I do think "List of Ultras of Indonesian Archipelago" could have been a viable option. At the time of the above discussions, the move from List of Ultras of Indonesia to List of Ultras of Malay Archipelago had already taken place and I remember being inclined to make that action work if possible and not put the article through another move unless necessary. I am open to consider another move now (or creating another list as you suggest) if there is a better title we can agree on. List of Ultras of Indonesian Archipelago would be a step back more towards what we had before (not to imply that's a bad thing at all), but the need for political vs geographic disclaimers makes the name less than ideal. I'm open though. We will see if anyone else has an opinion. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 22:48, 3 January 2013 (UTC)