Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Meat Puppet Data

Protest

See Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 11

And yes, there is plenty of space here & I notice that there have been efforts to shut everything out from the discussion & allocate them into the archive or outside pages - as an effort to shut out dissenting opinions. ("dissent" somebody brought that up) (Wikimachine 22:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

No, I'm trying to delete the link to the meat puppetry, which means that the admin can return to his previous conclusion. (Wikimachine 22:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

---

Please Wikimachine leave it alone for at least six months. When if you still want to move it then suggest another WP:RM. But 400 KB is enought for now on the page name. BTW next time perhapse you will also consider expressing support for a compromise option like "Dokdo/Takeshima" instead of all or nothing on Dokdo and only Dokdo--Philip Baird Shearer 22:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I really detest how you're trying to shut everything up. No, what I'm doing is completely inherent part of Wikipedia procedure. In fact, admin Hudson recommended that I present him an evidence challenging the possibility of meat puppetry. (Wikimachine 22:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

Admins, now, are you going to characterize Koreans as cheaters just because of a newspaper article that just happened to bring some invalid votes? You're taking this too one-sidedly. How many invalid votes from the current 43 to 28 etc. can you spell out? How does just 1 vote matter that much? Or have you guys been boiling to move the article to Liancourt Rocks no matter what? (Wikimachine 17:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

And I don't understand. How can it be consensus at 62.5%? That's not some majority vote, and no admin said it. Endroit is not an admin. I disagree with the fact that there is a consensus. I disagree. Then that makes no consensus here. (Wikimachine 17:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

Look WP:Consensus. I don't even think that the admins understand what consensus means in Wikipedia. "Over time, every edit that remains on a page, in a sense, has the unanimous approval of the community (or at least everyone who has looked at the page)." "Consensus does not mean that everyone agrees with the outcome; instead, it means that everyone agrees to abide by the outcome." (Wikimachine 17:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

Endroit, how can JWC's vote be vandalism? That's not even sock puppetry. This is so POV & moved along a tacitly agreed program that I can't even stand it. I'll make sure to go through all invalid votes & find valid ones. (Wikimachine 17:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

All right, they had less than 50 edits, but I don't necessarily see them as works of S. Korean netizens. I still detest heavily this tacitly organized movement of the masses. (Wikimachine 17:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

For those that care, the article I posted here that on the Korean community portal as early as 5/22 was indeed another canvas/meatpuppet attempt. This one contained sentences "like 'please take an interest' and 'the day after tomorrow will be too late.' It also includes the usual stock defense for meatpuppetry and the like, namely 'the Chinese and Japanese are doing it already.'" (Translations thanks to Visviva after I requested some clarification from him). —LactoseTI^T 18:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

But what does that lead us to? How does that relate in any way to meat puppetry? You don't have enough warrants to accuse valid voters of meat puppetry. (Wikimachine 19:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

It's related because it's the very definition of meat puppetry. Look at WP:MEAT#Advertising_and_soliciting_meatpuppets. --Cheers, Komdori 20:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Invalid votes for Liancourt Rocks

• user:Opp2 - He has less than 50 edits outside of talk:Dokdo. It has been long discussed in the previous dispute that Opp2 could be a sock puppet. [1][2]
• user:Panpulha - He has less than 50 edits before his vote at Liancourt Rocks.
• user:Robert Houdini - He had exactly 50 edits before his vote at Liancourt Rocks. Around 10 edits were made during the poll.

(Wikimachine 17:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

Ok. What I'm so frustrated about now is that Endroit et al tried so hard to pick out invalid votes for Dokdo, but obviously they let some "slip in" for Liancourt Rocks. This is unforgivable. (Wikimachine 17:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

40/68 = 0.58823529411764705882352941176471. And nobody agreed that 62.5% was enough for consensus. I say this is ridiculous. Is it right that I have the right to test consensus by reverting the move? (Wikimachine 17:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

Are you planning to do this for the Dokdo people as well? People like Ginnre have fewer than 50 edits outside of Dokdo as well. --Cheers, Komdori 18:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that. Why don't you do it. Wikimachine 19:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

And no, Ginnre has more than 50 edits. I wasn't emphasizing the fact that people should have more than 50 edits just outside of Dokdo. But from personal experience, Opp2 edited ONLY on Dokdo. That's the problem. (Wikimachine 19:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

This is so well arranged, that, in fact, I think the Wiki Kim whatever guy at that portal was not a Korean. (Wikimachine 19:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

Is it correct that those who disagree may test consensus by reverting the move? I don't want any 3RR, etc., but if it is commonplace in Wikipedia, I'd like to revert. (Wikimachine 19:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

It is clear that such a move is not uncontroversial. You can move it by establishing consensus and posting a RM. If no one changes their mind here, you'd need around 60 or so additional people for the name "Dokdo" to swing it the other way by the same percentage without any additional votes for Liancourt Rocks. I might mention you should not be counting the votes that had no reasons/were just signatures, or who had reasons not referencing any visible policy (although I didn't factor that into the additional number you'd need). --Cheers, Komdori 19:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, Opp2 has more edits outside of Liancourt Rocks than Ginnre. For example, see his edits on the talk pages of Battle of Chingshanli and Rusk documents. --Cheers, Komdori 20:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Umm.. They're all anti-Korean & nationalistic & in anyway related to disputes b/w Japan & Korea. I'll verify that myself. (Wikimachine 20:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

Ginnre's are also only regarding disputes b/w Japan and Korea. --Cheers, Komdori 20:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Meat Puppetry Data

I'll provide a detailed analysis defending meat puppetry accusation against valid voters. But first, let me test the realism of the scenario behind those Korean portal mobilizations.

• The valid voters have been around in Wikipedia for a while. If they were meat puppets, they would have voted at Liancourt Rocks no matter what.
• The posts and newspaper articles began to appear around 3 days after the beginning of the poll. Only 13 voters voted at or after May 25.
• Most voters voted at the last poll.
• Most wrote some sort of English. None display any defficiency in the English language.
• All voters with less than 50 edits have been re-allocated to invalid votes. I myself checked through most of the valid voters, and they were around in Wikipedia long before the dispute.
• JPOV posts also appear in Google... or those that appear to counter KPOV posts. Something I don't like is how JPOV editors here take a Chosun Ilbo article just mentioning the facts as an effort by the Korean press to collectively maintain the status quo at Dokdo? What kind of image do you have of S. Korea? Don't you know that Chosun Ilbo also released the same article in Japanese? [3], [4], [5], [6], etc.

(Wikimachine 20:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

Oh, so they also canvassed Koreans living in Japan? Anyway, read WP:MEAT#Advertising_and_soliciting_meatpuppets. I might add that you don't show anything on the level of Yahoo news, etc. Arguing about that is somewhat arguing about semantics, though--one instance of canvassing literally millions of people was tied directly to an editor voting multiple times for Dokdo. You can beat to death whether or not you think this really had a lot of an effect (probably did), but in any case this is not just a head count. You yourself made the arguments that admin votes were especially good to look at--and as I predicted, they all came down for the Liancourt Rocks term, since it was better according to the policies. --Cheers, Komdori 20:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I still see no link between inappropriateness & definite evidence of effective meat puppetry. (Wikimachine 20:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

Individuals

Remember that Cydevil38 and Davidpdx were found not-guilty at checkuser. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Lions3639.

• Reuben[7][8] - a reliable editor, he joined on September of 2004. His interests range from Korea to physics (Dark Matter), and biographies of scientists (i.e. Dennis William Sciama).
• Janviermichelle[9][10]= another reliable editor who joined on May of 2006. His total edits currently is 2236. His main interests rest in Korea and Buddhism.
• John Smith's[11][12] - John Smith's has total edit counts of 6273, and joined Wikipedia on May of 2005. His main interests include Japan, Chian, navy, and massacres.
• AKADriver[13][14] - He joined on June of 2005, and has a total of 1237 edits, and his main interests include cars (i.e. Nissan, Honda, etc.)
• Kingj123[15][16] - Kingj123 joined on November of 2006, and has a total of 668 edits, and his main interests are Korea, trains, and city/districts. He's also part of WikiProject Korea.
• Cjensen[17][18] - Cjensen joined on March of 2004, and despite his low 213 edits, he shows no sign of POV in his areas of interests (quite wide) such as volcanoes, demography, and biography.
• Good friend100[19][20] - Good friend100 is a Wiki friend of mine, and I have known him long enough to know definitely that he won't do any meat or sock puppetry. He joined on May of 2006, and has edited mostly on Japanese invasions of Korea (1592-1598), Goguryeo, Korea, Turtle Ship, and Yi Sun-sin.
• Wikiment[21][22] - Wikiment joined on December of 2006 (5 months before the dispute, at beginning of May 07), and currently has a total of 63 edits. His main concerns include Liancourt Rocks, Korea, and Korea-Japan relations. I have yet to see signs of nationalistic extremism from his edits & posts. For example, see this edit.
• Ginnre[23][24] - Ginnre joined Wikipedia on June of 2006, and proclaims his main interest, Dokdo, at his user page. He has total of 325 edits, of which 137 are in Dokdo mainspace and talk pages.
• Mr Tan[25][26] - Mr Tan is a Chinese-Portuguese-English US citizen who specializes in East Asia-related articles. He joined Wikipedia on January of 2005, and has a total of 11810 edits.
• Davidpdx[27][28] - Davidpdx is a US citizen American who have been living in S. Korea for the past 3 years, teaching English. Now that he's married with a Korean woman, he's planning to return to the U.S. "Some of my hobbies include photography, music, reading, traveling, politics, caving, and surfing the internet." He has total edits of 3142, and joined since July of 2005. He was effectively accused of sock puppetry, and the checkuser was found to be faulty.
• Cydevil38[29][30]- Cydevil38 joined Wikipedia on March of 2007, and his primary concern has been the dispute at Goguryeo. He has 458 edits total.
• melonbarmonster[31][32] - melonbarmonster joined Wikipedia on August of 2006, and has a total of 1206 edits. His interests divide into Korea and Japan (i.e. Kimchi, Norimitsu Onishi), and the Japan-Korea disputes.
• Oyo321[33][34] - Oyo321 is a English-fluent Korean living in the US as a citizen. His user page[35] may show slight signs of nationalism... He has a total of 556 edits, beginning from May of 2006. He has his main interests on Korea topics only.
• WonYong[36][37] - WonYong is a Seoul resident with intermediate level of English. He joined Wikipedia on December of 2005, and has a total of 415 edits. His main interests rest on S. Korean civillian and military technologies.
• Jjisr[38][39] - Jjisr is a soccer maniac obsessed with Asian Cup, and primarily the S. Korean football team. His total edits are 308, beginning since February of 2007.
• Intmotinf[40][41]- Intmotinf began his first edit on October of 2005, and has a total of 77 edits. He seems to attend Princeton University, as the Princeton article is his 3rd most edited mainspace page.
• Tean91[42][43] - He joined on December of 2006, and has a total of 75 edits. His primary interests rest on Great Barrier Reef, Space Cowboy Online, and Emily Strange (= movie films?).
• Alfpooh[44][45]- Alfpooh joined on March of 2006, and has a total of 94 edits. His primary interests rest on telecommunication and cell phone companies (i.e. Motorolla, SK Telecom), and the Hongik University (he seems to be a student there).
• Galadrien[46][47]- Galadrien is a Korean Wikipedian who also edits on the English Wikipedia. He is multilingual, with Korean, English, Esperanto, Dutch, Japanese, and Quenyanen. He joined the English Wiki on February of 2006, and has accumulated total of 173 edits. His primary interests rest on games (i.e. World of Warcraft) and anime.
• Hnc197[48][49]- Hnc197 joined on March of 2006, and has total of 146 edits.South Korea, Government of South Korea, Central business district & List of oldest universities in continuous operation have most of his edits (3 max).
• Merumerume[50][51]- Merumerume seems to be an American of European descent, and he is a student of Asian Studies at New York University. He speak English, Japanese, Korean, and Chinese (English Japanese & Korean fluently). His main interests rest on universities, and has 94 edits beginning on August of 2006.
• Easternknight[52][53]- Easternknight (also known as Jegal) is a S. Korean living in the U.S., and pariticipates in the WP:KO. He has total of 630 edits, beginning from April of 2006. His main interests rest on S. Korean military.
• DandanxD[54][55]- DandanxD joined Wikipedia on September of 2006, and has total of 358 edits. DandanxD states on his user page "Unless Senkaku Islands is changed to it's NPOV name (Pinnacle Islands), then that, along with the Dokdo 'debacle' shows that Wikipedia is, without doubt, pro-Japanese."
• Hunfe[56][57] - Hunfe joined Wikipedia on December of 2004, and has total of 113 edits. He is "old enough to know what a type writer is", and he is interested in the nuclear crises (Iran & North Korea), etc.
• Sydneyphoenix[58][59]- Sydneyphoenix is an Australian living in Sydney, and he speak both Korean and English fluently. He joined Wikipedia on February of 2005, with total of 540 edits. He is interested in S. Korean history.
• Hohonn[60][61] - Hohonn joined Wikipedia on August of 2005, and has a total of 90 edits. His main interests rest on S. Korean movies, soccer team, etc.
• Remort[62][63] - Remort is an anti-Jew interested primarily on the Pearl Harbor, East Asian Studies, Christianity, etc. He doesn't seem to be a Korean.

Statistical Data

Users with less than 100 edits

• Wikiment
• Intmotinf
• Tean91
• Merumerume
• Hohonn

Users who joined this year

• Cydevil38
• Jjisr

Users w/ Goguryeo Bird Sign @ user space

• Oyo321
• Easternknight

Users w/ proclaimed POV stance @ user pages

• Ginnre
• Oyo321
• DandanxD

Users w/o user pages

• Wikiment
• Intmotinf
• Hohonn
• Remort

Users who edited on Korea primarily

• Reuben
• Janviermichelle
• Kingj123
• Good friend100
• Wikiment
• Ginnre
• Cydevil38
• melonbarmonster
• Oyo321
• WonYong
• Jjisr
• Alfpooh
• Easternknight
• DandanxD
• Sydneyphoenix
• Hohonn

• —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wikimachine (talk • contribs).

Don't tell me you are going to pick apart every editor on this page... do it on your own talkpage or in your userspace and link to it. This talk page fills up fast enough as it is. --Cheers, Komdori 20:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The admin asked for evidence of meatpuppet/sockpupetry on the Liancourt Rocks group, not the Dokdo group. While Reuben did vote for Liancourt Rocks, he appears to be the only one. How does this relate? I personally doubt you'll come up with any of the evidence you were asked to provide, and regardless, the decision was primarily made on NPOV issues. Did you discount the users who had no reason or invalid reasons for their vote on either side? I believe this affects a great number of voters for Dokdo. --Cheers, Komdori 17:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't the accusation on the Dokdo group? Then shouldn't it be logical for me to defend the Dokdo group? I'm not quite sure if he meant that. No. I don't think that there is meat puppetry going on from the Liancourt Rocks side. (Wikimachine 17:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC))

Great, then we can close the discussion. The closing admin had suggested that if there had been massive vote fraud on the Liancourt Rocks maybe it wouldn't have been as fair of an expression of all the editors and admins who expressed support for it as it was. I believe he was looking for something concrete and objective rather than subjective musings about editors in general (at least one or more who also voted for Liancourt Rocks). Put another way, if we had an RM to move it back today, still at best a superminority of valid votes would wind up expressing support to move it, a far cry from consensus. --Cheers, Komdori 19:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

But the move to Liancourt Rocks itself was based on "a far cry from consensus". I'm not asking for an RM back; I'm simply asking thea admin to overturn his decision. (Wikimachine 02:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC))