Talk:Kachcheri

Hindustani or Tamil? edit

Latest comment: 7 years ago14 comments6 people in discussion

The word Kachcheri, is being stated to be a Hindustani word. The source that is stating this according to the citation is the book "The Management of Official Records in Public Institutions in Sri Lanka: 1802–1990", in page 28. I have done some researching, and I have not been able to find anything about this book on the web. Thus it is a source with poor reputation for checking the facts. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Questionable_sources

The word Kachcheri is a Tamil word, and often used in daily bases. I have added source from the Tamil dictionary: http://agarathi.com/word/கச்சேரி

Before reverting back, add proper source, with better reputation for checking the facts.

Muvendar (talk) 12:57, 16 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Muvendar: Wow what interpretation. You have done a research about a book on web and then cite that reference is poor one as you couldn't find anything about that book with giving me a Wikipedia guide page. Lot of Wikipedia articles contain references of books and most of them can not be found in web sites. Also the reference that you have given here is just a web site with no specific recognition. The interesting thing is there is no any citation that Kachcheri is an original tamil name as you mentioning in your comments. So i have to say the same things as you told me, Pls before reverting back, add proper source, with better reputation for checking the facts.--L Manju (talk) 15:38, 16 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

L Manju, childish behaviour :) .The source has very poor reputation, it is nowhere to find on net. How do we know the book even exist then?Why don't you provide any form of proof that this book states your claim? According to Wikipedia policy, a source should not have poor reputation for checking the facts, which this source indeed has. Agarathi.com is a professional website, and is recognized as one of the best online Tamil dictionaries.

I am not going to undo your revert and create a edit war. I will delete that part. It should only be re-added with a proper source, and the current one is not a proper source. Muvendar (talk) 21:41, 16 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Muvendar: There are sufficient records to show that The Management of Official Records in Public Institutions in Sri Lanka: 1802–1990 by S. S. K. Wickramanayaka does exist. It appears that the document was a PhD thesis prepared in 1992, published by University College London. Just because there is not an electronic copy available doesn't not make it an unreliable source. Dan arndt (talk) 00:12, 17 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

See WP:SCHOLARSHIP for cautions about using a doctoral thesis as a source. What field was Wickramanayaka's PhD in? Do we have any evidence that he is a recognized expert in linguistic origins?

On the other hand, the argument that the word Kachcheri is a Tamil word and is often used in daily bases is a poor argument. "Federal" is an English word and is often used in daily bases, but the origin of the word is French. Same with "Solo" (Italian) "Tobacco" (Spanish), "Coffee" (Turkish) and "Sky" (Old Norse). Does the Tamil dictionary mentioned above specifically say that the etymology of the word is Tamil? --Guy Macon (talk) 13:43, 18 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

I think the case for identifying the origin of the word is a weak one, if the only source is a doctoral dissertation (which is not a great source), and it's contradicted by other not-so-great sources. I do not think, based on current sources, that we can really be at all certain about the word's origin, and that this information is perhaps best left out of the article, unless there are more compelling sources, that are clearly reliable sources for word origins, are presented on one or the other side of the issue. Sławomir Biały (talk) 13:53, 18 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

I've provided additional reliable sources/references that clearly back up the view it's origins are Hindi rather than Tamil, rather than be reliant on the doctoral dissertation. I'd also refer to the Concise English Dictionary, which confirms the origin as Hindi. If necessary I can provide other sources. Dan arndt (talk) 14:10, 18 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I'd say that's a better secondary source. Sławomir Biały (talk) 14:15, 18 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

Other sources found include:

Senaveratna, John M.; Bell, Harry Charles Purvis; Lewis, John Penry (1916). The Ceylon Antiquary and Literary Register, Volume 1. The Times of Ceylon. p. 111.,
Garthwaite, L (1870). A Collection of Official Documents in the Canarese Language, consisting of Urzees and other Papers filed in Courts of Justice, for the Use of Candidates for the Indian Civil Service: Compiled by Order of the Secretary of State for India. Government of Madras Basel Mission Press. p. 65..

According to [ http://www.wordow.com/english/dictionary/?t=kachcheri ], "Kachcheri is a Hindustani word initially used for the Revenue Collector's Office in the early years of the British Colonial Administration in Ceylon (Sri Lanka)."

According to the Historical Dictionary of Sri Lanka,[1] "Kachcheri is an Indian term introduced by the English East India Company when Great Britain conquered the island from the Dutch East India Company and has remained in use up to the present." --Guy Macon (talk) 15:36, 18 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

Ceylon Under the British also states that it's an Indian word. But Indian does not mean Hindi. Why not give all reliably sourced views?--obi2canibe^{talk contr} 20:07, 18 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

What source did you have in mind? Before you answer "Wickramanayaka's PhD Thesis", please answer the question "What field was Wickramanayaka's PhD in? Do we have any evidence that he is a recognized expert in linguistic origins?". --Guy Macon (talk) 21:22, 18 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

As previously indicated The Ceylon Antiquary and Literary Regiser states: "To make up for it Hindustani has not only enriched the vocabulary of Anglo-Indian English with such words as topi and pugre, cheerot and hookah, dhoby and sepoy, ghary and tamasha, dubar and bukshish, Kachcheri and punkah, but has contributed to it words like jungle, bazaar, loot known outside India."

A Collection of Official Documents in the Canarese Language, consisting of Urzees and other Papers filed in Courts of Justice, for the Use of Candidates for the Indian Civil Service: Compiled by Order of the Secretary of State for India states "Kachcheri (generally mis-spelt 'Cutchery') is a Hindustani word meaning a court or office, and by metonomy the officals who business there."

Also Diaries in Ceylon, 1908-1911: Records of a Colonial Administrator : Being the Official Diaries Maintained by Leonard Woolf While Asst. Government Agent of the Hambantota District, Ceylon During the Period August 1908 to May 1911 states "The only legacy of the East India Company rule from Madras is the word 'Kachcheri' which was the Hindustani name given by the aumildars to their revenue collection offices. The word has come into common use in Ceylon" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dan arndt (talk • contribs) 06:37, 19 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

I'm satisfied that these sources seem to be quite reliable for the statement. Sławomir Biały (talk) 21:00, 19 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Guy Macon: I was not intending on starting an argument nor was I passing judgement on what constituted reliable. I was simply stating that, rather than give a single view of the word's origin, give all that can be reliably sourced and attribute them.--obi2canibe^{talk contr} 21:12, 19 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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