Talk:Johann Pachelbel/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is a fine article, possibly meriting an A rating. Its principal defect is not enough inline citations; it could use more images, and the works discussion, while admirable, is long, and should be partitioned in some way. My full review is on the comments page; questions or comments can be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 02:41, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Lutheranism navbar?

Is the presence of the lutheranism navbar justified? There's only two passing references about this issue on the entire article. IMHO, if an issue doesn't appear in the first few paragraphs of an article (and doen't merit its own section), it's not relevant enough. Please forgive my poor english. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.242.78 (talk) 17:47, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree (and your English is just fine). I take the lack of any further discussion to mean that you and I have reached a consensus to remove the navigation box, so I have removed it. Peter Chastain (talk) 08:54, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Biological father...

Have removed the following uncited text:

During his visits, he also taught some of J.A. Bach's other children. Probably Pachelbel was a biological father of Johann Sebastian Bach. Pachelbel married second time on August 24, 1684, Johann Sebastian Bach was fathered on June 1684. When Johann Sebastian Bach was 9 years old, he attended his oldest brother's (Johann Christoph) wedding where he met Johann Pachelbel.

It contains several issues and needs, at least, an inline citation for the "a biological father" crack.--Technopat (talk) 12:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I reverted further than you, before I noticed your edit - I'm surprised I didn't get an edit conflict notice. --RobertG ♬ talk 12:34, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The cited source uses the term "geistige Stammvater Bach" or the intellectual progenitor of Bach. Have modified the article accordingly.--Technopat (talk) 13:11, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The 1694 wedding event is mentioned in the article in the "Final years" section of the biography, third paragraph. It covers everything we know about it. We don't really know if JSB was there, but he most probably was, and that's about it. The biological father thing is a joke or a bad translation; as the for the "intellectual progenitor"—well, I wouldn't go that far. Pachelbel was an important influence on most Central German composers at the time, but Bach's style also borrowed from Buxtehude, Böhm (who probably taught him), probably Lübeck, members of the Bach family, etc. I'm afraid our article on Bach isn't very good, and this article too needs some rewriting... I've been planning it but haven't got around to doing it yet. Sorry! --Jashiin (talk) 13:43, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

of course we need a DNA test. But on circle of historians Pachelbel and E.M.Bach relationship is a smoking gun. --User:Doom11 (talk) 13:30, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Look: Johann Pachelbel's importance in the history of music is due the fact that he was one of the spiritual ancestors of J.S. Bach... His son, Wilhelm Hieronymus Pachelbel (b. Erfurt 1685; d. 1764), was almost an exact eamemporary of J.S. Bach. http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Pachelbel-Johann.htm --User:Doom11 (talk) 19:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter how high the possibility was. Take at a look at WP:OR. We can include information on how Pachelbel attended the 1694 wedding, we can include information on how Pachelbel stood godfather to JA's daughter, etc., because those are all facts mentioned by many, many sources. All that information is included in the article. But we cannot include speculation such as "these events show that Pachelbel may have been Bach's father" etc., because that information is never mentioned in any reliable sources. At least, I've never seen it mentioned anywhere. If you can't provide an article from an academic journal, or at least a book of some sort, which puts forward this theory, then to include it would be including original research, not suitable for Wikipedia.

In other words, no matter how logical something is. If it is not covered by any reliable sources, it is not included on Wikipedia. Unless it's something really trivial.

On a side note (although this is nitpicking): no, Pachelbel's importance in history lies not only in his influence on Bach. The man influenced dozens, if not hundreds of organists in Central Germany, contributed to the development of several principal genres of organ and vocal music, etc. --Jashiin (talk) 18:14, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Johann Sebastian was a LAST CHILD of Maria Elisabeth Lämmerhirt . No more children. And Johann look like very much like his mother. But ....Johann Pachelbel son, Wilhelm Hieronymus Pachelbel (b. Erfurt 1685; d. 1764) from second marriage, was almost an exact eamemporary of J.S. Bach. Look: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Pachelbel-Johann.htm --User:Doom11 (talk) 14:05, 15 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.55.98 (talk)

Internal Inconsistencies

"Johann Christoph Bach, Pachelbel's landlord in Erfurt, died in 1682." "When former pupil Johann Christoph Bach married in October 1694,..." Which is it? If these are the same men, the dates are wrong. If these are not the same men, then the difference needs to made clear. kcylsnavS{^screech_harrass} 21:19, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Bach family got terrible naming tendencies. They have eight Johann Christoph Bachs, one Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach, and one Johann Christoph Georg Bach... --Ahyangyi (talk) 06:18, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

...a fine article...

Hello,

First I knew only the german version of this article. Step two: I heard a broadcast with the information that the university of Oxford wanted P. as a music professor. But this fact couldn't be found in the german version. So I changed to the english version and was very impressed by the quality of this article. Maybe some tiny facts are not perfect. But I can say ... it is a very fine article.

With best greetings from the area of Nuremberg from Feuchtwangen where Pachelbels brother served some years as a Cantor.

Uli M

--Metzner (talk) 13:08, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

German pronunciation

Could we have a correct German pronunciation? The one we have in the article with the <K> pronunciation for the <CH> of "Pachelbel" is certainly common with uninformed English speakers. But many English speakers can produce the correct German <CH> sound as in "Bach" and (Scottish) "Loch Ness", etc etc. And, the vowel of the second syllable would not be the "schwa" sound in German, either. I don't know how to put the phonectical symbols into the article. Perhaps someone else can.

Anyway, I was surprised to see merely and anglicised pronunciation of "Pachelbel" here: the main reason I visted this page was to see what pronunciation was given, since I was taught 30 years ago to say " ' PahCH - ell - bell " no K and no schwa.

thanks 69.166.29.158 (talk) 00:32, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

The Duden Aussprachewörterbuch, and German Wikipedia, list three possible pronunciations: [ˈpaxɛlbl̩], [ˈpaxl̩bɛl], [paˈxɛlbl̩]. I added the second of these to this article as it's the only one I've actually heard. Angr (talk) 17:51, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I've been pulled up on this by German speakers too. I propose to put in the correct pronunciation as [paxˈɛlbɛl], although I'm aware that ɛ doesn't normally fall on an unstressed syllable (as in the final syllable here) and I stand to be corrected. BachAndByte (talk) 15:21, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

There is virtually no living person in the world who can tell you which syllable Herr Pachelbel used to stress when pronouncing his own name. The rule would be that German names are stressed on the first syllable, but the name is not typically German and maybe the family used some foreign pronunciation. 2003:E5:3C2:5600:8481:D603:B434:4372 (talk) 00:28, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Of course the ch is as in Bach. I lived in Bavaria in the 80s. It's not a Bavarian name, not even German, imo. My gf, who is Bavarian, agrees. P's father came from a few miles from Czechoslovakia. I asked her if it could be a Czech name. She replied "How the **** should I know?". She has never heard of him, so doesn't know how to pronounce his name. So there you go! Maybe you could do more research into his genealogy, maybe something to do with migration before, during or after the 30 years' war? However, I can see from the discussion in de.wiki that they don't have any more of a clue than you. It may be that they stress the second syllable merely to emphasise the foreign-ness of the name. For example, there's a place in the Alsace called Pechelbronn, which would have been stressed on the first syllable when it was German. This is clearly a potential origin of the name, and maybe they were Huguenot exiles from France (somewhere close to Pechelbronn?) originally. Vince Calegon (talk) 08:16, 13 December 2018 (UTC) Added: Although I feel that it is most likely that the name is French and should be stressed (in German) on the first syllable, on page 151 of the Cambridge Companion to the Violin we see mention of a Dresden-based Pisendel, who is clearly of Italian descent. Fuficius Fango (talk) 07:19, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

As of March 2017

I've changed the page so that it's similar to how it's presented on Bach's page ( )

69.165.196.103 (talk) 01:25, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

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