Talk:Jesuit Garden (Beirut)

Requested move 17 September 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Jesuit Garden (Beirut) dab page created at Jesuit Garden. No such user (talk) 07:05, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

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Jesuit Garden → Jesuit Garden (Achrafieh, Beirut) – Very ambiguous name, there are hundreds of Jesuit Gardens around the world. ŠJů (talk) 10:19, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Pretty sure this is a duplicate article. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:25, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Jesuits Garden → Jesuits Garden (Remeil, Beirut) – Very ambiguous name, there are hundreds of Jesuits Gardens around the world. ŠJů (talk) 10:23, 17 September 2017 (UTC)) --ŠJů (talk) 10:23, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

• Merge? @ŠJů: are you sure these aren't duplicate articles? Google Maps only shows one garden in Beirut. That said, probably needs to add (Beirut), since Jesuit Garden (Beijing) is more common in books. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:46, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

  @In ictu oculi: I didn't check the descriptions in the map. None of the articles Jesuit Garden and Jesuits Garden contains coordinates. I supposed that Remeil District is not identical with Achrafieh District and I supposed, this distinguishing edit was intentional. --ŠJů (talk) 12:58, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Looks the same, I've pinged the project. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:05, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

@Anthony Appleyard: the 2007 Jesuits Garden stub (this one) looks to me to be a duplicate of the 2003 Jesuit Garden stub. Any idea? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Comment. I merged the articles following the procedure at WP:MERGE. There was very little to merge from Jesuits Garden anyway. No opinion yet on the best setup. For what it's worth:
  • Jesuit Garden (Beijing) is of similar notability as this one, judging on Google;
  • Ivan Franko Park in Lviv was formerly called "Jesuit Gardens"
  • There is a small Jesuit Garden in the Český Krumlov Castle [1]
  • I think I've seen another one elsewhere, but can't locate it at the moment.
• It seems best to make a dab page at the base title. No such user (talk) 15:03, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
• @In ictu oculi and No such user: Best ask someone in Beirut who knows the area well, before deciding. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:32, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

  @Anthony Appleyard: – we're supposed to rely on WP:RS, not on individual editors' personal opinions :). Seriously, both IIO and myself have double-checked, and there's only one such park in Beirut. And Google agrees. No such user (talk) 15:57, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

@Anthony Appleyard: have confirmed that it's the same park. Seems the 2003 editor started the Jesuit[ no s ] article first, then the 2007 editor started 2007 Jesuits [with s] correct spelling unaware. One reference the hospital on the left side, one the one on the right. It's the same park. Google Earth shows no other park in the area. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:03, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

• @No such user: the Beijing one seems massively better known in books, but is now just a small area in a larger park. Propose Jesuit Garden (Beirut) and have dab page on baseline. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:09, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

@No such user, In ictu oculi, and Anthony Appleyard: The last discussion looks a bit comically from the European view. "Jesuit garden" is primarily a generic name for all gardens of Jesuit colleges, residences, monasteries etc., and most of them are locally named as Jesuit Garden. There are hundreds of Jesuit facilities around the world. I suppose, neither Beirut nor Beijing is a seat city of the order to claim the garden name without any disambiguation and I never heard that the Jesuit garden in Beirut or the in Beijing is a prototype and archetype of other jesuit gardens :-) Just in Czechia there are at least 6 big gardens which are or were commonly named Jezuitská zahrada (some of them were changed to public city parks), and Czechia is surely not the main place of operation of the order – the order has its origin on Montmartre in Paris and its first members were from the Basque Country, Spain, Portugal, Savoia...

We can have some general article about Jesuit gardening and about typical characteristics and historical evolution of Jesuit gardens, but an article about one specific Jesuit garden needs undoubtebly a geographical disambiguation if it has no unambiguous proper name. If there is just one Jesuit garden in Beirut, the name Jesuit Garden (Beirut) or Jesuit Garden, Beirut is adequate IMO. --ŠJů (talk) 16:53, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Btw., my engagement at this item started at Commons category Commons:Jesuit garden. Its creator, living in South Bohemia, was convinced that such a category name is fitting just for the Jesuit garden in Český Krumlov in South Bohemia (and morever he incorrectly identified the garden). However, encyclopedic work requieres a bit broader horizons. --ŠJů (talk) 17:02, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

ŠJů – {{sofixit}}. If you wish to start an article about general aspect Jesuit gardening you're certainly welcome. It does seem to be a thing [2], but I'm not sure how well you will find it covered in sources as an aspect of Jesuit activity. My brief search only revealed passing mentions [3][4][5]. This one seems rather extensive, but not all pages are available:

• John W. O'Malley (2006). The Jesuits II: Cultures, Sciences, and the Arts, 1540-1773. University of Toronto Press. pp. 86–. ISBN 978-0-8020-3861-6.

–No such user (talk) 13:21, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.