Talk:Ian Kinsler/GA2

GA Reassessment

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I've worked on bringing this article up to GA status, and believe that it now qualifies and would appreciate a reassessment. Thank you.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:42, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments from KV5

I tried to do the full review the first time, but will not be able to undertake it a second time. Another editor will have to do so. However, I do have some comments to be fixed right off the bat because they weren't fixed from the first nomination.

• Slash-style statistical notation is still used throughout this article. Not everyone knows what it means; it needs to be removed.

• This comment was addressed by clarifying the slash-style statistical notation in its first use -- see "There, Kinsler had a .335 batting average/.416 on base percentage/.536 slugging percentage, with 16 steals in 17 attempts."--Epeefleche (talk) 17:29, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• I don't know if that will be enough, but I will let it up to the editor who undertakes the full review. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 17:08, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I can't think of a better way. I think this is consistent with the way we in-line link, for example, or define terms. We do it in the first instance, and presume the reader will be educated by that and not need the same explanation in later instances. Repeating it would IMHO be unneccesarily cumbersome.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:34, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• Check tenses.

• Done.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• Reference formats need to be the same throughout the article; there is currently a mix of three or four different formats.

• Done for the most part. Formats that are one-time only should all be consistent, and the more-than-one time necessarily differs but should have precisely the same info. One last troubling citation .... --Epeefleche (talk) 00:15, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

• En-dashes in all box scores/game scores and in all year ranges.

• Done (I believe). The one situation I could not divine the answer to was what to use in the phrase "x-for-y"; as I did not see a requirement to use something other than hyphens, I left those as hyphens.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:29, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• "x-for-y" should indeed be hyphens. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 18:09, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• Where em-dashes occur, they should not be spaced, ever, per WP:DASH.

• Done (though I note that, as evidenced by dash, this does not comport with the general, more permissive rule that allows spaces). I would also point out that the template itself fails to comport with this ... see "Texas Rangers — No. 5".--Epeefleche (talk) 17:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, I know about the infobox... it irks me every time I see it. Haha. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 18:09, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• I actually think it looks better with the spaces -- and prefer the general rule at dash that permits it ("In practice, there is little consensus, and it is a matter of personal or house taste.").--Epeefleche (talk) 18:28, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• I think that actually refers to a spaced en-dash, which is perfectly fine both in printed media and here ("The Elements of Typographic Style recommends the more concise spaced en dash – like so – and argues that the length and visual magnitude of an em dash 'belongs to the padded and corseted aesthetic of Victorian typography.' However, some longstanding typographical guides such as The Chicago Manual of Style still recommend unspaced em dashes for this purpose. The Oxford Guide to Style (2002, section 5.10.10) acknowledges that this style is used by "other British publishers," but observes that Oxford University Press does not use it."). If you'd prefer a spaced en-dash, which can by rule replace an unspaced em-dash without consequence, please feel free to use it. Just make sure that you use it throughout the article. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 18:56, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• I know we're running far afield with this, but actually it was from a discussion at dash of em-dash. Specifically, it said: "Traditionally an em dash—like so—or a spaced em dash — like so — has been used for a dash in running text. ... However, some longstanding typographical guides such as The Chicago Manual of Style still recommend unspaced em dashes for this purpose. The Oxford Guide to Style (2002, section 5.10.10) acknowledges that this style is used by "other British publishers," but observes that Oxford University Press does not use it. In practice, there is little consensus, and it is a matter of personal or house taste." (emphasis added)--Epeefleche (talk) 19:07, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• Works for me. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 19:12, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

If these are fixed before an editor undertakes a full review, it will help the article's chances a lot. Thanks. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 11:52, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Wizardman

• I'll take a look at the article and will review it shortly. Wizardman 16:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I've now read the article. Overall it's very good and detailed, a big step up from what I remember when it was at GA earlier. Love the infobox picture too, great shot :). Here's what needs fixing:

• Given the size of the article, the lead should be expanded, making sure it's basically an outline of the article itself.

• Augmented somewhat. Just let me know if it needs more work.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• "Kinsler has had a unique personal challenge to overcome since he was young." I don't know if I would consider asthma unique, seeing as how it affects 300 million. It'd certainly be troubling for an athlete, yes, but I'd reword.

• Fair point. I've addressed (hopefully sufficiently, but just let me know if not).--Epeefleche (talk) 04:37, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

• Yup, that looks good. Wizardman

• "so [Kinsler] really couldn’t run like I knew he could. I’d seen him in Wichita the year before, so I knew he was a plus runner. Most people ... didn’t know that, so they probably downgraded him. But I knew it, and I wasn’t telling anybody.” The pick was later lauded as "one of the greatest 17th round picks of all time." The quotes need citations.

• Gotcha. Done.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• "Baseball America rated Kinsler the # 9 prospect in the Texas League." cite needed

• Done.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• Anything specifically written on why he made the shortstop to second base transition?

• Looked around, and found some material to amplify that (though the best stuff appears to be articles one has to pay for).--Epeefleche (talk) 20:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• "For the season, he started 31 games batting seventh, 30 batting eighth, 20 batting sixth, 19 batting ninth, 12 batting second, 3 batting leadoff, 2 batting third, and 1 batting fifth." Cite needed, same for other instances in the text.

• Done.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• There are some stats thrown in that I question the significance of, they seem to just be in to be in. (i.e. times advanced from frist to third, power/speed number, etc.)

• Will defer to you. I like them a lot, because a) I think they are important telling (though unsung ... other than by an announcer telling you "this guy is great at going from first to third) stats of those "hidden" baseball performances that many fans enjoy, and b) because he excelled in both. I think its that extra level of insight -- like his record stealing third. But I will of course defer to you. The first to third info just became available to the general public recently. The power/speed info reflect a way that he is unique, up there with only a couple of other players.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:13, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• "I think he just missed having an MVP year," manager Ron Washington said. "If luck is on our side and he stays healthy, he would have run away with it." Is this quote right. He seems to swap tenses a couple times.

• Done. It was accurate, but I cleaned it up w square brackets.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• "Kinsler's five strangest autograph requests have been a diaper, neck brace, yarmulke, kids' arms, and giant baseball." Cite or remove.

• Done.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• This article, as a general note, uses an awful lot of quotes. Not a big deal, but others may ask about that in the future.

Only got the minor league career done so far, will do major league soon. Wizardman 17:02, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Done, at least for now. I'll put it on hold and give you a week to finish this. Wizardman 01:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• Somehow the yellow awards template got scrunched ... I think it would look best if it were as long as the templates below it. Any idea as to how I might fix that?--Epeefleche (talk) 21:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• Looks like a change with the template itself, would just have to click show to show the awards. Not really anything we could do on that. Wizardman 19:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Concluding thoughts - I would still like to see the lead expanded a bit more, though it does look better. Reference and detail wise everything is good, and there's nothing that fails GAN criteria. While the quote/lead notes bug me a bit, I do acknowledge this as a GA and as such am passing it. Wizardman 19:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Infobox overkill

A recent discussion at WikiProject Baseball suggested limiting the infobox highlights to the following awards

• All-Star game appearances
• MVP or Cy Young Awards
• World Series or playoff MVP Awards
• Rookie of the Year Awards
• season home run crowns
• season batting championships
• season RBI championships
• Gold Glove Awards
• Silver Slugger Awards

Given the fact that Kinsler has only played for 6 seasons, it seems to be a case of extreme fan worship rather than an encyclopedic entry.Orsoni (talk) 12:24, 3 October 2011 (UTC) There should be something to recognize leading the league in stolen bases. Also, rare accomplishments like 30-30 seasons are important.