Talk:Human male sexuality/Archive 3

Someone Needs to Review This Page

I keep trying to change it, but someone keeps changing my edits back.

This is extremely biased entry that misinterpreted scientific studies, and at times outright lied about the results. If you check the existing citations and read the studies, this will be confirmed. Additionally I removed language that was harmful to women (with no citations and riddled with grammar mistakes), promoted rape as a strategy to get more parters, and parts that misinterpreted studies to promote veiled and implied racism.

Particularly offensive parts are until "Male sexually violent strategies" where it states things like: "There are many sexual strategies that males can employ in order to gain mates. This includes sexual coercion" "Sexual coercion functions to increase the chance of a female mating with a male, and decrease the chance that the female will mate with another male" and whatever weird statement this means. This is a theory that hasn't been proven and they misinterpret the source they site: "Among other behaviors, this means that men are more likely to favour chastity in a woman, as this way a male can be more certain that her offspring are his own. Such a strategy is seen in males, and maternity is never doubted by the female, and so a chaste male is not highly valued by women.[citation needed] However, for men, female chastity confirms paternity, causing the male to compromise his sexual strategies in order to select a chaste mate."

Whoever edited my changes back didn't change back the coded racist part about people from low-income areas being more likely to rape under "factors influencing male sexual behavior" so I believe this is a deliberate attack against women written from a MRA perspective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.194.243.213 (talk) 00:53, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I reverted your edit here with the edit summary, "You're taking out a lot of material without explanation and you've been reverted already; please discuss issues on talk page." Your edits were too radical and weren't accompanied by any edit summary. You were removing references and the software tagged your edits as doing that.

Now you are starting to discuss the language that offends you, which is what's necessary now. Can you propose substitute language and references for what you find objectionable? Dhtwiki (talk) 03:38, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

IP user 68, I agree with Dhtwiki's comments above. If what you say is true, then it shouldn't be difficult to come up with any number of reliable sources to support your view. On the flip side, removing existing content sourced with references should only be done if the content is irrelevant to the topic of the article, or if the reference is from an unreliable source, or if the material at the source simply does not support the assertions made in the article. (There are some other reasons to remove sourced content, like libel, BLP issues, etc., but those are not pertinent here.) If you wish to remove those references, can you please go through them one by one, as well as the text they claim to source, and explain why you think it's an improvement to the article to remove the content and the reference? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 03:14, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Rape

In the subsection Evolutionary explanations, it appears that one source only is used, with no mention of the fact that those assertions are disputed by other academics, scientists etc. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be used, but surely we should also give other sources and point out that many experts disagree. Also, the fact that a high proportion of rapes obviously cannot result in the victim's pregnancy - due to the victims being too young, too old, male or being killed very soon after by the rapists - is not even mentioned, let alone explained. Jim Michael (talk) 12:33, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Jim Michael, yes, some rebuttals should be there. But as for "cannot result in the victim's pregnancy," like I stated in one of my edit summaries, the "Rejected hypotheses" section does note that "this explanation does not explain the rape of those with no chance of reproductive success e.g. girls, boys, adult males, and postmenopausal women." It needs to be sourced, though. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:07, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the flaw in the 'rape to impregnate' assertion is mentioned in that section, but it doesn't include any attempt to explain why a substantial proportion of rapists might choose people who are obviously unable to become pregnant as their victims. Anyone who chooses to rape a 5-y-o, a 80-y-o, or a male of any age cannot think - even subconsciously - that he will impregnate that person. Jim Michael (talk) 02:24, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Pointy editing

Konecat, regarding this, do keep cease your WP:POINTY editing. We both know why you made that edit. The difference is that what you removed from this article -- material on male sexual entitlement -- is well-supported in the literature and can be replaced by better sources. Do read the WP:Preserve policy. Also read WP:Advocacy. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:19, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

• "We both know why you made that edit" Please explain why. Interesting. What are you implying? You make a lot of assumptions based on no data. Whole section only links to primary sources. It's not supported by any scientific, scholar literature, no meta-studies have been linked, stub articles, weasel words, even original research. It violates all rules as stated in the edit. If you think I am wrong say why you think so. I don't think my editing is "pointy". I'd like to hear what literature supports pseudo-scientific feminist fringe theories on "male sexual entitlement" since all sources linked did not meet the criteria. Wikipedia is not your political outlet. - Konecat (talk) 03:45, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Konecat, there is no need to explain why. But it's more than clear that you got upset/were offended by my revert of your edit at the Human female sexuality article. You speak of assumptions, and yet, at Talk:Human female sexuality, you were the one to state "you don't need to get so worked up over it," and "I wish you defended with the same tenacity the inverted article," and "perhaps I hit a sensitive spot?" Your edit is WP:POINTY because after I reverted your edit based on valid rationales, you came to this article and removed material using my rationales because you don't like the material you removed. This is why I pointed you to another policy -- WP:Preserve. The WP:Due weight part of my rationale at the other article, for example, does not at all apply to what you removed at this article. What you removed is very WP:Due. There is nothing WP:Fringe about male sexual entitlement. It's not a presumption on my part in the least that male sexual entitlement, usually simply called "sexual entitlement," is well-supported in the literature and can be replaced by better sources than the ones that were in the article. It's my knowledge of the topic that led me to make the statement. Because of my knowledge of sexuality topics, I don't have to go looking in the literature to verify to myself that what I'm stating is true. If I'm making the statement to someone else, and that person challenges my statement, compiling a list of sources for what I stated, like I did in this case, is something I'm known to do. But in every case, it is easy enough for others to look at the literature themselves. I really don't have to provide a list of WP:Secondary and tertiary sources here on this talk page to prove my point. Anyone can see what I mean by looking on Google Books or Google Scholar. You speak of "scientific," but what in the world are you talking about? Since when is the rape literature mainly about science? Other than social science, that is. If the text is speaking of evolutionary psychology and/or evolutionary biology, like David Buss, often does, that is a different matter. But the content you removed is not about evolutionary psychology and/or evolutionary biology. You state "Wikipedia is not your political outlet." Considering that I pointed you to the WP:Advocacy page, that is yet another "right back at you" action on your part. I'm not the one going on about "pseudo-scientific feminist fringe theories," as if male sexual entitlement is only a talking point within feminist literature and is only a matter of social science. Plenty of sociology, psychology and medical sources, feminist or not, speak on it as well. You know, like this 2012 "Family Problems and Family Violence: Reliable Assessment and the ICD-11" source, from Springer Publishing Company, page 19, when speaking of intimate partner violence, stating, "In all of these settings, men who raped claimed sexual entitlement as the key motivating factor, and female consent was overridden by the belief in sexual entitlement (Fulu, 2011)". Male sexual entitlement is a fact, and should obviously be covered in this article. Even if it were simply an opinion, it should be covered in the article due to the level it's discussed in the literature on male sexual behavior. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:50, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

• Flyer22 Reborn, I got upset? Please stop continually projecting onto other people. My edits have nothing to do with each other. You speak that this phenomenon is "well-supported in literature". So are reptilians and anti-semitic conspiracy theories. That's why there is WP:Reliable sources. I think your WP:IDON'TLIKEIT is also a projection. You just don't like my edit because it's accurate. Male sexual entitlement is a fringe theory that states based on some literature that "males think they're owed sex". For that to be true there'd need to be secondary sources showing that majority of the males do indeed do things that reflect this line of thinking. The whole section deleted had an un-sourced claim, cite "Coercive behaviour of men towards women can be argued to be a result of male sexual entitlement." It defines male sexual entitelement, by comparing it to another phenomena. That is a violation of WP:Original Research WP:Scholarship WP:Fringe theories. For example, Reptilian humanoids are stated in the wikipedia to be a fantasy, even though some (non-scientific, non-verifiable, mostly primary) literature supports it as real. Subsequent primary sourcing doesn't even use the word even once, it's about coercive behaviour, not male sexual entitlement. Also, your "source" I assume is a joke of sorts? Just because there's an in-line usage of a word in a different context doesn't make your fringe theory WP:Notability I'd also like to remind you of WP:No personal attacks. Cease doing that. I don't think WP:Preserve applies to outright hateful statements based on some WP:Advocacy of an author. - Konecat (talk) 13:54, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, you got upset. Clearly. And you asking that I stop "projecting onto [you]" when you did that very thing to me is contradictory. You state that the edits you made to both articles "have nothing to do with each other," and yet the relation is clear, which is why another experienced editor also recognized the edit as WP:POINTY. Everything else you argued about me and the sexual entitlement literature is false, and I do not have the time or patience to debate nonsense. There are plenty of reliable sources (primary, secondary and tertiary) on male sexual entitlement. My source, which is a quality source and is clearly not a joke, shows that male sexual entitlement exists. That is why I pointed to it, since you are acting like male sexual entitlement doesn't exist and is fringe. It's so fringe that many medical sources, including those relating to the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD), speak of it? You won't find any WP:Reliable sources calling male sexual entitlement a fringe theory. Even if it were fringe, WP:Fringe is clear that we sometimes include fringe theories. No, sources don't need to state that the majority of males exhibit sexual entitlement for male sexual entitlement to be a real thing. And there is nothing hateful about noting that some or many males exhibit sexual entitlement. As for wording, I clearly stated above that male sexual entitlement is usually simply called "sexual entitlement." The literature on sexual entitlement is overwhelmingly about males. And do take your WP:Personal attacks claim elsewhere; it surely won't fly if you make a report at WP:ANI. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:19, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

• Did you just ask for negative evidence? Are you serious? You have no place on wikipedia. You should know better than to require another person to give you sources which de-credit your fringe theory. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence or in wikipedia's terms Extraordinary material requires extraordinary sources [The burden lies on you]. Similarly with any theory, burden of proof is on you. It goes back to Socrates, but seems like his theories have never reached you, for all your knowledge of literature and giving me in-line citations from completely unrelated ICD book (about family violence, bravo), you seem to use the most basic of fallacies. It's not a mainstream or scientific belief that majority of males are sexually entitled,WP:Fringe theories or for that matter, that sexual entitlement is even real. if you think otherwise provide sources for that claim instead of ""consequently"" interpreting sources to your liking. You even go as far, as to remove my precise, fully reflective weasel-word ridden material according to the source, instead of the manipulative language used previously. I am waiting for your WP:ANI report so you can get punished for bias and, ironically disruptive editing. I also love your editing explanations "it MIGHT be in the 1961 source". Because it just GOT TO BE TRUE?WP:NPOV WP:Advocacy WP:IDON'TLIKEIT. A source from 1961 has literally no worth. The newer the source, the better, the older, the worse. Otherwise, you just might have to go to Homosexuality page and classify it as a disease again. I compromised like 4 times now, if you keep editing out my things, I will go to WP:ANI myself. - Konecat (talk) 15:27, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

For reasons I've already addressed, you aren't making a bit of sense. You even went back to your "scientific" nonsense. And again, no one stated that all or most males engage in sexual entitlement. And as for it being in the 1961 source, that has to do with WP:Verifiability. You are the one who claimed it's unsourced without knowing if that source supports the statement. Per WP:Citation overkill, sources are not always placed after each and every sentence. Truth? See Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. And it's truth anyway that sexual entitlement among males exists; the source I cited is very clear about its existence. I've already noted that I "really don't have to provide a list of WP:Secondary and tertiary sources here on this talk page to prove my point. Anyone can see what I mean by looking on Google Books or Google Scholar." I'm not going to indulge you and waste my time by going out of my way to list a number of reliable sources that state sexual entitlement among males as fact. It is not like I restored the section you removed; -sche did. What I did was challenge your above nonsense about sexual entitlement and, as explained, revert a mess you made. Like I stated, I do not have the time or patience for your nonsense. Keep up your disruptive editing (at this article, the Holocaust denial article, and anywhere else on Wikipedia), and I will be taking you to WP:ANI. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:31, 23 February 2019 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:02, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

• Your reasons don't make any sense either. Take me to WP:ANI, I want to see what an administrator will say about your disruptive editing. - Konecat (talk) 15:35, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Updated above comment. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:05, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Correlation of parental divorce rate and rape

The article previously contained the assertion that this study found that parental divorce and rape correlated positively. However, the study does not correlate parental divorce and rape, rather male divorce overall. Specifically, the study makes the argument, "(i) divorce leads to serial monogamy; (ii) serial monogamy increases variance in male reproductive success; and (iii) increased variance in male reproductive success influences some males to rape as an alternative reproductive tactic." I removed the erroneous statement from the article.

Because the source can still provide relevant information to this topic, I'm going to leave it here in case someone finds a better place for it:

• Starks, Philip T. (2000-06-22). "The relationship between serial monogamy and rape in the United States (1960–1995)". Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B: Biological Sciences. 267 (1449): 1259–1263. doi:10.1098/rspb.2000.1136. ISSN 0962-8452. PMC 1690656. PMID 10902693.

--Equivamp - talk 21:41, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Rewrite of material on homosexuality

I've engaged in a WP:BOLD, substantial edit to fix 4 major issues with this article's discussion of homosexuality. (1) No actual information on sexual orientation, even though there is a subheading for it, which is what I'm guessing the expansion tag was referring to. (2) Violation of WP:UNDUE in lengthy and repetitious discussion of the supposed adaptive function of "homoerotic behavior." (3) As tagged, off-topic discussion of sexual identity and its history, even though this is a page about sexuality, not history (or arguably, identity). (4) Unsourced statements, some of which have already been questioned, especially in the sexual identity discussion; and statements that are not supported by their sources.

To fix this, I:

--1. Added new material on sexual orientation. Many of the sources are from within the last 5 years, and cross-cultural data is often mentioned.

--2. Reduced and consolidated the material on "homoerotic behavior." This previously gave undue weight to an idea that is little-held in sexology and evolutionary psychology. Many of the sources for my new material, especially Bailey et al. and LeVay, discuss the subject of sexual orientation extensively, including 'mostly straight' men who primarily have relationships with women (i.e. those engaging in just some "homoerotic behavior"), and including how it may persist despite evolution, and yet do not mention these theories at all. Buss does mention it, but mostly critically, unlike the other hypotheses. As for the 2014 study, I kept it for now, but if others agree I would be open to removing it, as its results seem unimpressive frankly. The difference from progesterone could be for any number of reasons.

--3. Removed most of the discussion about sexual identity and its history, and wrote a new, brief version, due to being off-topic, unsourced, poorly sourced, already challenged, and/or not supported by the reference(s) given. I do not believe it necessary for this article to contain a lengthy discussion of sexual identity.

--4. Removed unneeded or misrepresented references. Here is the justification for each:

-Tooby and Cosmides 1992: Contains no reference to homosexual behavior.

-Ross 1973: Unnecessary.

-Gallup 1983: Hardly says anything about what it supposedly supports; is very out of date since it argues homosexuality results from frustrated heterosexuality.

-Boswell 1980, Ungaretti 1978, Evans-Pritchard 1970, Herdt 1993, Zahavi 1975, Weinrich 1987: Gives appearance of violating WP:SYNTH, as though we were synthesizing these sources, and adds excessive length. They are instead referenced in Muscarella (the first 2) and Kirkpatrick's (the latter 4) respective papers.

-Bowles 2009, Hill 2009, Sugiyama 2004: Two of these papers do not reference homosexual or homoerotic behavior whatsoever; one (by Hill) only briefly mentions 'homosexuals' as among other non-reproducing individuals in a certain tribe, but says nothing about their forming alliances.

-Zuni Berdache info: Only about one culture and says nothing about what it is cited for.

-Norton: I sort of kept this reference, but changed it to link to the contents. Inexplicably was cited twice for supporting the same statement, and said the opposite of what it was cited for.

-Trumbach: I skimmed this book's contents and first chapter. It is unclear where, if anywhere, it says what it is claimed to.

-Kinsey et al.: Says nothing about what it is cited for.

-Stewart et al.: This nearly 20 year old "qualitative" paper contains no numerical data of any kind and instead is thick with literary-style theorizing.

-Dworkin: Article is about a single culture, not "the East."

-Eliason: This is a 1995 (not 2010 as claimed) study of 26 students in a class about "Theorizing Sexual Identities." It is unclear how this is supposed to generalize to all Western straight men.

I look forward to any comments. Crossroads1 (talk) 16:01, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't have anything to state about your changes at the moment, except that they are an improvement and what I relayed with this edit. We should state "identify as" rather than "are" (just like what is done with the Demographics of sexual orientation article), given that these surveys are based on self-reports, many people identify as heterosexual because of societal pressure to do so, and we don't actually know the sexual orientation of these people. The penile plethysmograph, for example, measures sexual arousal in men, but it has flaws, and that includes when using it to gauge sexual orientation. Researchers aren't going by the plethysmograph or MRI scans when reporting on what portions of the population are whatever sexual orientation; they are going by self-reports. And I added "especially for males" regarding non-social causes, because, like the Bailey source states, "the hypothesis that causal influences on sexual orientation are nonsocial rather than social is better supported for male than for female sexual orientation. [...] Although it would also be less surprising to us (and to others; see Baumeister, 2000) to discover that social environment affects female sexual orientation and related behavior, that possibility must be scientifically supported rather than assumed." Bailey et al. are stating that male sexual orientation is significantly better understood than female sexual orientation, and there's a better chance that social environment plays a part in affecting female sexual orientation than it does in affecting male sexual orientation (but that even the "a better chance" line of thinking should be supported by research). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:32, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, I agree on both counts. I think I had left off the "especially for males" because the article is about males, but it is worth mentioning to avoid giving the wrong impression. Crossroads1 (talk) 01:34, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the cite checks, Crossroads1. It seems like that's been a recurring problem on this page... --Equivamp - talk 06:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Let's talk opening picture

The current picture leading the article is not a very good one. The mythological creature in it is not human; the behavior he is engaging in (masturbation) is not even discussed in the article at all. Besides, it strikes me as rather odd to represent male sexuality with a solo behavior.

Instead, I suggest this. While it is not explicitly sexual, I think it represents the article well (he seems to be attracted to her, she is attractive, it is heterosexual which is what most men want). There may be other good or better choices, although I did look around on Commons for a little while, but my main point is that the current one is a poor choice and needs to be replaced.

Thoughts? Crossroads1 (talk) 05:17, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Per the lack of objection, I have now done this. Crossroads1 (talk) 01:57, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Apparently 2 weeks after I brought it up for discussion, User:WanderingWanda objects to my image choice. First off, my removing it had nothing to do with prudery, as I explained above. Secondly, please see this policy where it says images should be "directly depicting people, things, activities, and concepts described in the article." The article is not just about sex, but speaks in detail about sexual attraction and mate choice. This is directly depicted in the picture. Thirdly, MOS:LEADIMAGE states images should "be the type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works". As an example, Wall Street Journal used this. So, I think the picture illustrates the subject reasonably well, when you remember that "sexuality" is very distinct from "sexual intercourse" or "sexual arousal". -Crossroads- (talk) 16:03, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

To be honest, I was over-hasty and missed that you had talked about the picture in the talk page. It is a good point that the greek art doesn't depict a human, and that the article doesn't currently talk about masturbation (although it probably should), and that sexuality doesn't just refer to sexual activity. Still, I don't like the alternative very much: it doesn't focus specifically on the male, and I don't think Wikipedia needs more pictures of blandly-attractive white twenty-somethings. Obviously these specific images aren't available, but if they were, I'd prefer this art from the NYTimes, or this art from The Globe and Mail. But if you want to put the photo back up I won't object again, at least not unless I find an alternative that I like better.] WanderingWanda (talk) 16:21, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Those pictures are a little abstract/stylized for me. Standards of beauty are not culturally arbitrary as the article explains; so the couple being as you say "blandly-attractive" is a point in its favor if anything. I don't care at all that they are white; in fact I wish they weren't because I just knew someone would be offended by it. If you find a better one on Commons feel free to bring it up here for discussion. I didn't look there overly hard. I will probably add a paragraph on masturbation soon. -Crossroads- (talk) 16:42, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Human sexuality is a topic that applies to all humans, not just conventionally attractive ones. And I'm not offended that they're white, just cognizant of systematic bias. WanderingWanda (talk) 17:02, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for bringing this argument back, but I do believe that something should be changed here. Crossroads makes good points on why the current image would be applicable, I do believe one that displays a male, homosexual couple would make more sense for an article about male homosexuality. Showing a picture of a heterosexual couple seems to be contrary to what the article is about. If anything, we should have a picture that gives an accurate visual aid for the article, not one that ticks enough boxes to be within the Wikipedia rules. (i misread the title. whoops)Toadman (Tooadman) (talk) 22:27, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

I've removed the current picture because it, being based on pair bonding, doesn't pertain to the topic of sexuality. I question the need to have a picture with human beings on it. Human female sexuality uses the gender symbol; so I'd recommend doing the same. Sexuality being as abstract as behaviours and feelings doesn't absolutely need the picture of flesh and blood humans. —Srid^🍁 16:35, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Sridc, I don't feel strongly about the image, but I wonder how you think that pair bonding doesn't pertain to the topic of sexuality. And either way, it was the caption tying it to that. The caption could be easily changed.

On a side note: Given that male and female sexuality differ in a number of ways, there is no need to try to have these two articles parallel each other. And keep in mind that there is a lot of poor sourcing in the Physical attractiveness article. So you bringing over material/sources from there, as you did when expanding the material on sexual attraction, is not necessarily a good thing. It can obviously be a bad thing. Per WP:SCHOLARSHIP, it's best to stick to scholarly sources, preferably secondary sources. WP:PSTS emphasizes secondary and tertiary sources over primary sources. I don't see a need to rely on primary sources and media sources for the academic material in this article. If media sources are to be used, that's more so for society and culture material concerning how society treats matters. And not everything that Davis Buss states has general agreement in the literature; so some things he states may need WP:In-text attribution. No need to ping me if you reply. This article is on my watchlist. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:55, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Sexuality does not necessarily have to involve pair bonding (for example, short term mating does not), which is why I found an image on pair bonding not directly pertaining to the article. Even without the caption the picture reeks of pair bonding more than sexuality to me. Perhaps trying to answer this question might illustrate my point better: do you think the same picture can be reasonably included in Human female sexuality?

As to the rest of your comments, that makes sense. I mainly wanted to expand the article a bit such that the sexual attraction section covered various factors in a reasonable proportion, and to that end I tried to copy/summarize from the Physical attraction article. I did notice that David Buss is inordinately represented, so yea we need better sources. Is there a Wikipedia template that we can include in this section to highlight this? —Srid^🍁 13:36, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I brought the picture back. Other editors are going to want an illustration. Tooadman's objection above seems confused, as the article is not about homosexuality. It is in part, but the vast majority of men are heterosexual, so that is why we have a male/female pair. Sridc, pair bonding does have to do with sexuality, because it has to do with long-term mating (of which sexuality is an inextricable part), which the article discusses (citing Buss' chapter on it). I did change the caption however, as the article does not at this time mention pair bonding specifically. The article apparently used to have the male gender symbol, but it was removed. I think a picture of people is more illustrative than an abstract symbol. I think a similar picture as we have here would work fine over at the Human female sexuality article, but changing that is not a priority for me. I don't know of any template for the purpose you asked about. Lastly, with regard to sourcing, Flyer22 Reborn explained that well. -Crossroads- (talk) 06:43, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I do strongly feel that the current picture is unsuitable for the article, for reasons explained above. But perhaps we should let a wider audience decide. To that end, I added another "human mate pair" picture to Human female sexuality (specifically this one[1] - I also chose it respecting diversity). Let's see what the editors of that article think. I think some of pictures--such as the Khajuraho ones--in Part 3 below look to be more appropriate. —Srid^🍁 14:12, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Removed the new image placed on the Human female sexuality article. Like I stated here, that image doesn't at all speak to human female sexuality. Yes, regardless of the pair being a heterosexual couple. Per MOS:LEADIMAGE, not every article needs a lead image. And this is especially the case when a lead image cannot be representative of the topic. If there is any image that comes closest to being representative of the human female sexuality topic, it is the Venus symbol that was there. This symbol is used to represent the female sex and female sexuality across various sources. I was also clear above that, given that male and female sexuality differ in a number of ways, there is no need to try to have these two articles parallel each other. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:39, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

So what is the consensus on including a mated pair image in this article? I don't believe the lead image is representative of the topic. Just as you removed the Bengali couple from the female sexuality article, I vote for removing the current lead image from the male sexuality article (unless a representative image can be found). —Srid^🍁 19:02, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

What are you looking for in terms of consensus? Per WP:Consensus, consensus on Wikipedia is not about a vote (unless it's something like an RfA). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:14, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

To summarize: the current image (of 'human mated pair') is not at all representative of male sexuality inasmuch as pair-bonding (which the image represents) is applicable only to a subset of male sexuality (i.e., long-term mating strategy). I have not heard any compelling reason to reinstate the image. So per MOS:LEADIMAGE, I suggest we remove it completely. Otherwise, one of the Khajuraho might be more fitting (but given a choice I'd go without an image). —Srid^🍁 19:22, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Some possible images

I think the current image is fine, but there are also any number of other images that are suitable, from photographs of people, to statues, to sketches. Here are a few I know or found:

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathglot (talk • contribs)

I don't think using an image of a sexual act for the lead image of this article is best since this article is not about a sexual act. If we were to use such an image, one of the statue images or paintings (an approach that was taken before) would be best. Not some WP:GRATUITOUS image, whether a real-life image, a drawn image, or some other type of illustration. As seen here, the Mars symbol and a painting an illustration was used before. But I think the image that Crossroads chose is fine. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:59, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

" I think the image that Crossroads chose is fine." - Well I strongly disagree with that. Can you explain why that image is fine here, but not in Human female sexuality? —Srid^🍁 19:03, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I meant "fine" compared to other image options, and I was going to clarify that. I prefer no image. But if we are speaking of going with an image for this article, going with this image rather than an image of a sexual act or maybe an image of kissing is more representative. As for human female sexuality, can you explain why you think that article must mirror this one image-wise when its aspects surely do not mirror the human male sexuality topic, as is clear by the literature? Given that the human female sexuality topic speaks on matters such as men controlling women's sexuality in one way or another, and of feminism, can you explain how it's at all tasteful to include a lead image that suggests that women's sexuality revolves around men? These topics are completely different, in various ways. And, yes, imagery matters for the reasons I stated, given what the literature addresses when it comes to female sexuality. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:14, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

That is basically the same argument for removing the image from this article too. Why include a lead image that suggests that men's sexualty revolves around pair-bonded relationships? —Srid^🍁 19:25, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

It's not the same since this topic doesn't speak on women controlling men's sexuality. Well, the literature doesn't speak on that to a significant degree. Anyway, I'm not going to argue over this image. If you want to take the matter to WP:Third opinion or start a WP:RfC on what image to use, then do that. At this point in time, it is the image with the most support from the few editors who have participated in discussion of what lead image to use for this article. What I will argue, as have already argued, is that what is done at this article doesn't mean it should also be done at the Human female sexuality article. In fact, the vast majority of things done at this one shouldn't and can't be done there. Two completely differently topics, in various ways. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:34, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Actually, WP:Third opinion isn't an option since more than two editors have weighed in on this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:40, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

And a few more images...

I agree with the point several people have raised that a picture of a man and woman together does not evoke specifically "male" sexuality but instead just sexuality or romance in general. So, I'm putting forward these male-focused alternatives. (Yes, yes, I'm aware these largely feature the sort of "blandly-attractive white" people that I argued against above. One problem at a time! )

• 
  One
• 
  Two
• 
  Three
• 
  Four

WanderingWanda (talk) 00:53, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

The RfC conclusion is to remove the lede image, which is now done. I think these images are better than previous lede image, however they still suffer from the same problem. The middle two images are focused on the sexual act itself, and not representative of all of male sexuality (which includes feelings and behaviors). Finding a photo representative of such an abstract notion is going to be hard. Not having an image at all is arguably better than having something that is half-baked. —Srid^🍁 01:14, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

The last image is of two people holding hands, just like the previous lead image. It's worse because it doesn't show the second person...except for the arm/hand. The first doesn't speak to sexuality at all. Struck, as all I originally saw was a hand on a face. But still, that image is more suitable for sexuality in older age. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:17, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

I actually ignored the last image thinking WanderingWanda was just being facetious. :-) I didn't notice that the guy was actually holding somebody's hand! —Srid^🍁 01:19, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Regarding image Two: I don't really agree that it's focused on "the sexual act itself". If you look at the uncropped version of the photo you'll see there is no penetration going on or anything. I would classify it as a picture of cuddling rather than of a sex act.

Not to toot my own horn, but I think Two is the best representation of the concept of "human male sexuality" that has been posted to this page: 1. the arm/body in the foreground reads as "male", putting the focus on "human male". 2. It has a clear focus on "sexuality" but without any explicitness. 3. It's a well-composed image that isn't artificially cropped like Four or One. That's not to say it's perfect from my perspective (and, incidentally, I expect one or two editors to pre-judge and object to it for a reason that hasn't been brought up yet, namely that both figures happen to be male), but if the RfC were still open it's probably what I would vote for.

Regarding image Four: my thought there was that "human male sexuality" and "human female sexuality" could each have a cropped version of the same photo of a man and woman holding hands, one showing the man and one the woman. An idea that probably works better conceptually rather than in reality.

Anyway, I'm fine with not using an image at all, I guess, but I think, sometimes, the idea that a concept is un-illustratable represents a failure of imagination. WanderingWanda (talk) 09:44, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

I expect one or two editors to pre-judge and object to it for a reason that hasn't been brought up yet, namely that both figures happen to be male) - you got it. Maybe you'd like to explain how a depiction of an activity that ~90% of human males have no interest in represents "human male sexuality". -Crossroads- (talk) 13:37, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Sure. Because it represents sexuality and it represents males. I suspect no one would kick up a fuss if I proposed an image with redheads, even though only one out of every one hundred males is a redhead. WanderingWanda (talk) 14:31, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Out of curiosity I went to Human sexuality to see what's going on there. There is no lede image (not surprising). Further down the article, are placed some images of genitals, and one of flirtation and some protests. Those images are placed in their corresponding sections which address specific aspects of sexuality. We already do the same, for the waist-to-hip ratio here. And perhaps we could add some more in other sections. So I'd say that section specific images make sense in this article, but without a lede image. —Srid^🍁 13:37, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Diversity

@Flyer22 Reborn: - You reverted[2] my change of lede image to use one that is diverse by saying "Three editors so far have supported this image in some way". However, two of these editors also expressed their support for using a more diverse image, viz:

• User:WanderingWanda - "I don't think Wikipedia needs more pictures of blandly-attractive white twenty-somethings & "systematic bias"
• User:Crossroads1 - "I don't care at all that they are white; in fact I wish they weren't because I just knew someone would be offended by it. If you find a better one on Commons feel free to bring it up here for discussion."

So, while we discuss the relevance of including an image of a couple in this article, I propose to use one that respects diversity (I suggest the Bengali couple inasmuch as it is the the least represented population in Wikipedia compared to the other three):

• 
• 
• 
• 

—Srid^🍁 19:39, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you think you'll attain a different consensus this way, with the same few editors weighing in on the same matter. But I will state that I am against choosing an image just because the image isn't of white people or because the image is not of some other "race"/ethnicity that an editor doesn't prefer for the lead image. On a side note: Please don't ping me to articles I'm obviously watching. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:46, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Pinging Mathglot since Mathglot also commented above. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:47, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS does not apply here (and my quotting of other editors does not imply that I agree with their motives; only that I highlight their support), as this is about using a diverse pool of images in Wikipedia. For example Light_skin uses images from a diverse group of populations: Europe, India, Russia, Mongolia, Iran. —Srid^🍁 19:51, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS very much applies here since you are suggesting we use an image of a non-white couple to fight systematic bias. And if you started an RfC on this, stating that we should use an image of a non-white couple to fight systematic bias, other editors would cite WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS as well. They most certainly would. As for you quoting editors not meaning you agree with them, no one suggested that it did. You've expressed the same sentiment to use an image of a non-white couple for diversity. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:58, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

You are putting words in my mouth. Can you point out where I suggested that to "use an image of a non-white couple" is "to fight systematic bias"? It was User:WanderingWanda who suggested it, and I quoted him only to illustrate that fact that this editor is in support of using diverse image. You even go so far as to assert what my *feelings* are (as in your "expressed the same sentiment" phrasing). Please do focus on content discussions. It obviously is sensible, and desired, to use diverse pool of images in Wikipedia (regardless of one's feelings on this matter). —Srid^🍁 20:03, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

So when you state "Use an image that respects diversity," start a discussion section titled "Diversity," state "two of these editors also expressed their support for using a more diverse image," quote those two people speaking on whether or not to use white people as the lead image, and include non-white people in your above image selection, what else are you possibly arguing? What else can you possibly mean by "diversity," other than "people who are not white"? Obviously, white people do not fall under the diversity category you are speaking of. I am focused on the content discussion; I focused on your diversity argument, not on you as an editor/person. I'm not going to keep debating semantics. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:10, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Just using the word 'diversity' does not automatically imply that the person who uses it is intent on "[fighting] systematic bias". Anybody who does WP:AGF would be wary of attributing such unstated intention on other editors, much less claim to know their emotional state (as in your "expressed the same sentiment" phrasing). If you are focused on content discussion, you would not be claiming that I'm trying to right great wrongs (your WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS]]). You are also going ahead and attributing new things that I didn't say (diversity being "people who are not white") when it goes contradictory what I actually wrote (For example Light_skin uses images from a diverse group of populations: Europe, India, Russia, Mongolia, Iran.). Once again, I ask that you focus on the content--what is actually written here--rather than trying to guess intent. I realize that race & diversity is a sensitive topic for many people, but I can assure you it is not for me. —Srid^🍁 20:17, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

So you are stating that you wanting to use an image of a non-white couple for the lead image has nothing to do with you attempting to fight systematic bias? I don't see what other reason there could be for insisting that we use an image of a non-white couple for the lead image. And as for reasons, reasons for edits are things we discuss. That is why I spoke on reasoning, what you've called intent. At least other editors who insist that we use an image of a non-white person or couple clearly speak on systematic bias. There isn't any reason outside of "fight systematic bias" that makes sense. And attributing new things that you didn't say "when it goes contradictory [to] what [you] actually wrote"? To repeat: "What else can you possibly mean by 'diversity,' other than 'people who are not white'? Obviously, white people do not fall under the diversity category you are speaking of." Where are the white people in your image selection? As for the rest, I stand by what I stated. I'm not continuing this discussion; I feel that you are insulting my intelligence. As for the article including other "races"/ethnicities, it can do that without the lead image being of a non-white couple. Images can obviously be placed lower in the article as well. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way. Perhaps reflecting on the fact that there are no mysterious "other reasons" than what the word diversity actually means (i.e., stripped of its political connotations) might be of help. It is only sensible, is it not, when using pictures of fellow human beings in an encyclopedia they be representative of the different populations of world. Using mostly pictures of people from a small portion of the world is weird for a world encyclopedia. Many articles in Wikipedia address this in neutral fashion, including Light skin, Man, Woman. —Srid^🍁 20:41, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

What you just stated equates to "fight systematic bias." And having a lead image of a Bengali couple, for example, in this article is no more representative than having a lead image of a white couple. The Light skin article comparison is not a fair comparison since that topic is specifically about light skin and should show different varieties of light skin. And showing those varieties from different parts of the world also makes sense and should be encouraged since our articles should be globalized when the topic pertains to more than just one or a few areas. The Human male sexuality article is obviously not about skin color. When I supported this image at the Woman article, it wasn't about the woman not being white. Not to mention that the definition of "white person" varies. There was extensive debate on what lead image to use at the Woman article. And a number of editors still do not agree with using that image. There was extensive debate on what lead image to use at the Man article. And a number of editors still do not agree with using that image. Again, I stand by what I've stated above. This is my actual last reply to you on this matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:01, 20 November 2019 (UTC) Updated post. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:05, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus was reached to remove the lede photo. —Srid^🍁 00:34, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

---

There are two proposals (see further above): drop the current lede image (because it indicates pair-bonding which is not totally representative of male sexuality, inasmuch as it only represents long-term mating, and not short-term mating), or if deciding to keep it, substitute or add an alternative that takes diverse population into account (see Diversity section above). —Srid^🍁 20:10, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

---

Survey

• RfC comment. I came here from the RfC notice. My suggestion would be to omit having a lead image, as is done at the corresponding female page. I'd probably also omit the Bengali image that is lower on the page. Neither image strikes me as being about human male sexuality so much as about human sexuality. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:21, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
• Omit lead image. The suggestions above do not capture the idea at all, nor would a picture of a sexual act. As the lead says, it "encompasses a wide variety of feelings and behaviors" which are not shown in any image I've seen, and an WP:OR caption like "Human mated pair" does not help. Johnuniq (talk) 23:53, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
• No lead image. I've changed my mind on this based on the discussion above. "Human male sexuality" is too abstract to be represented in a picture. Same applies to Human female sexuality. And these sorts of lead image discussions have been enormous time sinks. I only put the image originally as a replacement for a bizarre Greek vase with a mythological creature on it, but now I think it is better with none at all. The "Mars symbol" also adds nothing, and pictures of sex acts are disfavored per WP:GRATUITOUS. -Crossroads- (talk) 00:13, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Great! I had tried to make the same point actually, but it looks like I've failed. I guess now we wait for the RfC process to be closed before finally deciding to remove the image? —Srid^🍁

Per WP:RFCEND, point 1, you can end the RfC yourself, and then remove the lead picture. -Crossroads- (talk) 00:28, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

• No lead image - per my original stated reason in the November section. —Srid^🍁 00:16, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.