Talk:Hot cross bun/Archive 1

Disjointed material

NOTE: The material in this section was put at the top of the original talk page without any headings, and sometimes without signatures. It includes discussions of various topics, posted from 2003-2010, NOT in chronological order. Lou Sander (talk) 12:03, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Who is David??? --Random —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.216.46.75 (talk) 02:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Elizabeth David was a major British cookery writer. She was generally pretty scholarly, so I wouldn't discount any historical assertions she makes without checking.Sjwells53 (talk) 13:00, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't actually know if consumption of hot cross buns at easter is limited to England or not, so if somebody knows better, please fix it. --Camembert

Actually, now I come to look, I see on Good Friday it says "In many historically Christian countries, such as New Zealand, the day is celebrated with the eating of hot cross buns..." so I'll remove the "In England..." qualification from here. --Camembert

We certainly eat them in Wales (you know, that country that's stuck on the side of England?) Deb 19:33, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I think I heard of that once ;-) Sorry, Deb, I was just copying what somebody had written elsewhere - I knew it didn't seem right. --Camembert

I've never heard of them in the US (you know, South Canada). Tuf-Kat 19:38, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Yeah, I haven't heard of this tradition in the U.S., nor in Greece (which is also a Christian country). I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty certain this is confined to the UK and Commonwealth countries, not other Christian countries like Greece, Italy, or Russia. It'd be nice to find some source on that, though. --Delirium 06:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen them in Belgium either. --David Edgar 07:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I grew up as an Anglican in Nova Scotia, and hot cross buns on Good Friday is certainly a tradition there. It might just be an Anglican thing. 24.22.148.134 08:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

They are certainly found in the US around Easter, though I can't say how widely. (May be in areas with stronger British or Irish influence?) Bakeries have them and my mid-Western mother always made them - her roots are Irish Catholic, but a few generations back. She made them on Easter, not Good Friday, and they definitely had eggs and dairy in them. I have a 1920's Boston Cooking School cookbook with a recipe that contains eggs and dairy. Just thought I'd add some anecdotal evidence.131.238.201.44 12:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I have Irish Catholic Parents and married into an Italian family. We resided in the New York area and then Florida. Both always eat Hot Cross Buns during Lent. Our major grocery store, Publix, sells them during Lent also.

Ann Benson Abenanti

I too am of Irish Catholic descent, in my fifties, and have some familiarity with "hot cross buns". Some of what has been written here seems to starkly contrast with Catholic tradition. Though it is true I can buy delicious Hot Cross Buns right now (during Lent)in my local supermarket, traditionally Lent was an austere time of penitence and deprivation and my recollection is that we were only allowed to eat them AFTER Good Friday. Probably Easter morning. The idea that they were at some time made with "consecrated" dough used for communion wafers, though possibly true, seems far-fetched to me, since 1. At least today, communion wafers are unleavened - meaning they will never rise like a bread or bun does - they are flat (harking back to the passover since the Last Supper was, after all, a Passover seder) and 2. the wafers are only consecrated during Mass and thereafter are too sacred to be used for ANYTHING else. I don't doubt that there may have been some restriction of Catholic traditions in the UK and that they may have even been banned at some time but the reasons given seem to be prejudicial and misguided. Like many things in todays multi-cultural society, just because things are sold during Lent, doesn't mean they are "for" Lent. I site the fact that you could have given your Valentine a heart-shaped box of chocolate for New Year's Day. Today's marketing has very little to do with anyone's calendar or religion. And if I wanted hot cross buns for Easter I should probably buy them now and freeze them because for sure they will not be around on Easter.

Dorothy Cole

Certainly the ingrdients of hot cross buns would have been avoided by Catholics and moany Anglicans in a traditional Lent. I'm sure there aren't hot cross buns much outside the UK Anglican tradition. Instead, you find Easter cakes, which are often surprisingly similar in content - generally yeasted, with currants and usually almonds and candied peel. These are common throughout central and Eastern Europe, whether Catholic, Orthodox or Lutheran. Almonds are often used to make marzipan (March bread) cakes over this period too. Incidentally, the idea of hot cross buns being made with dough from the host in England seems very unlikely: Western Christians have always characteristically used unleavened bread for the communion wafer. Hot cross buns seen in a wider context look much like a a local version of a widespread European Easter cake custom that has migrated backwards to Good Friday. Being a bit of a gannet, I tend to bake both versions over the festive period.Sjwells53 (talk) 13:00, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

A separate question: is the "correct" name of these items "hot cross buns" or "hot crossed buns"? --Pete Newman, London, England

Whether it meets any given "correctness" criteria or not, I don't know, but a google comparison makes it clear that the former term is far more widely used. --David Edgar 07:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Old Bunn House

I'm just wondering what the reference to the Old Bunn House in Pimlico has to do with hot cross buns? Apart from the similarity of the word 'bun', I don't think it has any significance. -TonyW 01:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Moved information under heading of 'Trivia'. -TonyW 22:24, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest complete deletion of the Bunn House reference, unless there is a direct connection to hot cross buns, rather than buns in general. Otherwise, this appears to be an advertisement.131.238.201.9 02:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Currants

On the off chance someone checks this often...I was planning on fixing hot cross buns tomorrow, seeing as it will be Good Friday. But I'm American and really unfamiliar with currants. Are they similar enough to 'normal' raisins that I can just use them? 02:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Should work fine. Enjoy! :-) -dmmaus 05:55, 14 April 2006 (UTC) (eating a hot cross bun as I type)

Thank you, David :) Carl.bunderson 00:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

alternate words

A Google search of the alternate lyrics to Hot Cross Buns song only results in linking back to the Hot cross bun Wikipedia article. Whotookthatguy 19:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

No it doesn't. I found http://www.kididdles.com/mouseum/h064.html via a quick Google search. There also seem to be lots of variations - for example http://www.logo.com/notate/lyrics.html#hot --David Edgar 11:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Pre-christian History

I think the history section needs a little more balance. The tone of the section presents the pagan origin as an 'urban myth', stating that there is no evidence for this. I suspect that the evidence for the cross relating to the Christian cross is just as scarce. Matthewneiljones 11:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The fact that the buns are linked to Christian practices implies the Christian cross, at least to those baking and consuming hot cross buns in recent centuries. You will need greater weight of proof to support an earlier link to pagan practices. That said, I don't think the term "urban myth" is appropriate. To me, the term suggests a more widely known and more contemporary story which can be verified as untrue. Perhaps, referring to an "unsupported theory" of pagan origins would be appropriate 131.238.30.195 22:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

You can not say 'They are believed by some to pre-date Christianity, although the first recorded use of the term "hot cross bun" is not until 1733' because this evidence is not contrary as the article makes it out to be. Even if the pagan origins are incorrect, the 'although' implies there is some incongruity between the two clauses which there is not. It is very uncommon for a name to predate an object.

Often when borrowing one custom to begin another people will rename a thing such as the "hot cross bun", but this does not change it's origins or disconnect it from it's past entirely. The Eostre cakes like the breads baked for Astarte the Goddess of Heaven predate and according to Hislop's writings (among others) are origins for the Hot cross buns of today. It is a continuation of the same under another name. USbdr (talk) 19:44, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Myths

A recent version of this article says that the attempted ban on the buns was an urban myth, but the current version presents it as fact. What, if anything, is the evidence for it? -86.134.12.250 14:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Continental varieties

The article is right to suggest that our hot cross buns are part of a broader European tradition, but the specific form as shown in the top picture is originally English. The point is that the Czech variety is not "hot" - no spices - so it can't really be called a Czech HCB. In Germany they have Osterbrot, which is is more sweet. But it does have the cross on top. So it would be good to explore parallels, but not assume the English word can be used for all of them. --Doric Loon 19:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think "hot" in this case refers to spices, but to warmth, so I think if it has a cross and is associated with the seasons of Lent and Easter, it is a HCB.131.238.30.195 21:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Reformationsbrötchen

IMHO, this page might deserve an interwiki link to (de): Both Reformationsbrötchen and Hot Cross Bun are marked by their production at the chance of a Christian holiday. Can please someone (if necessary) do research into this, be it, at the very least, taking a sharp look at both articles and images? If OTOH it can be established, that we witness two pastry phenomena not to be mixed-up with another at all, I'd like you (i.e., you who reads this right now and can translate a German article) to create Reformationsbrötchen. In my view, we face the extraordinary chance to bridge a cultural gap as old as Luther's reformation - or at least as old as the pastry accompanying the anniversary... ;-)

regards, --Klingon83 (talk) 20:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Music section

Much of this is junk. Especially the bit about the rabbit hole joke tagged onto the end (removed). How do those lyrics fit any tune? Even a tune that's “played with the sequence A, G,F” (whatever that's supposed to mean). I've removed the POV phrase "more musical version", referring to the original based on “the notes A, A,D, where the second A is one octave lower than the first” (huh?). The substandard quality of this section annoyed me so much I wrote out the version I learnt in my childhood using Lilypond. Please, can others who know the other regional variants do the same? Or communicate with me to have each version typeset? Thanks. (Note: the correct tune is certainly not the same as "Ding dong dell", "Three blind mice", or the middle section of "Sing a song of sixpence", which would explain the mention of "AGF" and "AAD".)--Rfsmit (talk) 20:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

IMHO this section is WAY overdone. Totally unreferenced, as well. I don't think we need all the alternative verses, comments on the tune, etc. I don't want to cut it way back myself, but I think it should be done. Lou Sander (talk) 14:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)