Talk:Hermaphroditus

Comments

The following "version" is not attested in a text: "Another version is that Hermaphroditus was born a hermaphrodite, one of several children that Aphrodite bore with various gods." (I have edited out a reference to the goddess's "one-night stands", which might have alerted the critical eye.) --Wetman 09:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

'Intersex'

Without discussion, anon 125.238.29.184 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has thrice replaced the word 'intersex' for 'hermaphrodite' on this article. While perhaps a valid issue for modern-day intersexed people, this article refers to a mythological being, and therefore the word 'intersex' is not appropriate. Thoughts anyone? The anon has been reverting and unless there's some discussion I'll go ahead and ask for the page to be semi-protected if needed. Thanks! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:01, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

You're quite correct, given this context. The politically-correct neologism intersex might well be noted in the text or listed as a "See also". --Wetman 23:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. I'll take a peek and see what seems most facile. Thanks, Wetman. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

It says Hermaphroditus was the child of Julius Caesar and Abraham Lincoln...I think we know at least this is not true. But I have no idea what the real info should be, so can anyone fix that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.10.3 (talk) 00:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up, that edit has been reverted as vandalism. FYI, you can check out the 'history' tab at the top of each page for a detailed list of every change made to a wiki page. Cheers! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree and support reverting it to "hermaphrodite" (or "androgyne" in places where text variation), this also to honour his name, since he DID give name to hermaphroditism! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kriscrash (talk • contribs) 14:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Ovid reference

There has been a dispute over the citation "Ovid's Metamorphoses, IV.402-533". An IP editor preferred "[IV.] 271-388. The latter comment was unceremoniously removed by another IP editor

Since Wikimedia appears not to reference by line number, I looked at another seemingly reputable source, here, which does give line numbers. On that basis, I've amended the citation to IV.274-388, but await any further informed comment. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 13:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Returning to this, I find statements for which there is no support in the Ovid citation. After his transformation, Hermaphroditus is described as "a creature of both sexes", not as a god, and certainly not as "the god of effemininity". Thanks, Wetman, you just beat me to the punch on that one! I see, too, that some "references" are not included to specify sources or citations but merely to expand on an uncited point of view. Moreover, extraneous mythical types with intersex overtones have been gratuitously included, eg, Narcissus, Hyacinth, Hymenaios I have, therefore, removed these together with unsourced statements, and limited the references to citations which bear on the article's content. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 18:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

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DC Comics Rebirth Wonder Woman sub-section

Hi, Paul August, please read the links that I've added before you just willy-nilly delete other people's contributions. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.229.80 (talk) 20:08, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I've undone your additions. I looked through the links you added, but as far as I could tell none of them netion the subject of this article Hermaphroditus. In order to include this we need relaible sources discussing the significance of this Comics character for Hermaphroditus. Paul August ☎ 20:59, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Paul August, please read this article's lede and research both Hermaphroditus and Atlantiades. The character is AKA Atlantiades, just as many of the ancient Greek/Roman gods had numerous nicknames. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.229.80 (talk) 21:01, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

If you have any doubts, please read Issue 70, which has the following bit of dialogue: "I am Atlantiades of the Erotes, the living image of Desire and Union, both Male and Female, and you would rebuff me for a mere man who will grow old and toothless and die?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.229.80 (talk) 21:37, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Please read WP:IPC, which says:

"In popular culture" sections should contain verifiable information with sources that establish its significance to the article's subject.

Your sources do seem to show that there is a character whose name is a nickname of Hermaphroditus, and which apparently bares some similarities to Hermaphroditus. But while it does seems likely to me that the character is (loosely?) based on Hermaphroditus, the sources you've provided, as far as I can tell, don't actually say this, and it would be original research (see WP:OR) for us to assert this in the article. But even if reliable sources could be found which said this, that would still not be enough. The mere existence of a character based on Hermaphroditus is not enough to warrant its mention. What is needed are sources that establish this character's particular significance for Hermaphroditus. That is, what is it about this character that is important for us to know so that we can have a better understanding of Hermaphroditus? The sources you've provded say nothing of this. Unless sources can be found which tell us this, this mention will need to be removed. Paul August ☎ 22:12, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh come on, this is an honest depiction of the character based on established attributes. This version of Hermaphroditus is closer to the original mythology than the one in the Fellini movie, who wasn't even in the source novel!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.229.80 (talk) 23:12, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

So what? Where are the reliable sources which establish significance? Paul August ☎ 00:58, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

An October 2015 RfC tilted: Are "in popular culture" entries "self-sourcing" or do they require a reference under Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources? was closed with the following:

The consensus is very clear that a secondary source is required in almost all cases. A tertiary source is even better, if available. In the rare case that a primary source is judged to be sufficient, it should be properly cited. The source(s) cited should not only establish the verifiability of the pop culture reference, but also its significance."

Where are these required sources? If you do not provide adequate sourcing soon, then I will—consistent with the above editorial consensus, and fundamental Wikipedia policies of WP:Verify and WP:RS—be removing this mention of Atlantiades. Paul August ☎ 15:32, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

As described above, a source is required which establishes the significance of the character Atlantiades with regard to Hermaphroditus. Since no such source has been provided I've deleted the mention. The sources given do not even mention Hermaphroditus. Paul August ☎ 11:15, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Paul August, I hope you realize that people or characters are often referenced by their nicknames instead of their formal/official names. As such, this doesn't mean that Atlantiades isn't Hermaphroditus. Your understanding of reality is rigid to the point of blinding you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.229.80 (talk) 16:43, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I never said that "Atlantiades isn't Hermaphroditus". Please reread what I did say. Paul August ☎ 18:20, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

If we know who Atlantiades is, why is any mention of "Hermaphroditus" needed? Does every article or essay about Bill Clinton have to mention his birth name William Jefferson Blythe?70.112.229.80 (talk) 02:58, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

What we need (as I've said above) is a source which "establishes the significance of the character Atlantiades with regard to Hermaphroditus". In other words a source that says that the character is based upon Hermaphroditus and explains why the portrayal of this character has something important to tell us about Hermaphroditus. Not every fictional character that is based upon Hermaphroditus is worth mentioning here, only the important ones, and that importance needs to be established by an appropriate source, it can't just be our opinion. This is all explained in WP:IPC, please read it. Paul August ☎ 10:15, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

What pronouns were used for Hermaphroditus during the period?

This article makes heavy use of 'they', which I can understand considering the text reads that Hermaphroditus is a "creature of both sexes", but most sculptures I have personally seen online present them as a female. (See here: [1] [2] [3])

Should their pronouns be 'she' because of how they present their gender, or should this article stick with 'they' as their true gender is ambiguous? GarethBaloney (talk) 20:52, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

it's been an ongoing thing throughout the history of this article-- people periodically dropping in to change the pronouns for Hermaphroditus back and forth between masculine ones and gender neutral ones. so it would probably be good to try and come to some kind of firm decision on how this article should refer to him.

personally, i don't think looking at statues or portrayals of his likeness are the appropriate way to go about trying to find out the answer to this question, it's way more appropriate to reference the historical record: what pronouns were used in the greek literature the myths originate from? and what pronouns have been used by researchers and historians of these myths after that?

now i don't speak latin or ancient greek, nor am i especially knowledgeable on greek mythology or culture; but from a quick google search, it appears neither of the languages used gendered third-person pronouns. however, the english-language translations of the literature, as seen from what's quoted on this page, seem to pretty unanimously agree upon using masculine pronouns for him-- which is why i've decided to do so as well, and why i would say the page should probably follow that standard too. Gabzony (talk) 20:10, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

All of the sources I have seen which discuss Hermaphroditus utilise male pronouns, so I agree that they should be used here. Phanes is a similar case. – Michael Aurel (talk) 21:01, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Paul August ☎ 20:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Silenus under 'consort'

Why is Silenus listed as a consort? Is there any mythology to back this up? I see a couple paintings with the two, but do we know anything else? Is the consort thing just assumed? 2403:4800:74CF:E280:408F:9162:9E55:ED77 (talk) 13:50, 10 April 2024 (UTC)