Talk:Helstrom (TV series)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Gabriel

@Voicebox64: You can't take two characters with similar names and say they are meant to be the same character. You need a reliable, non-Wikipedia source explicitly making that connection for you. If there isn't one but you are certain that there should, just be patient, one will show up eventually. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:53, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. It may seem very clear that Gabriella is based on Gabriel, but we can't officially confirm it yet. --Bold Clone 23:52, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

I concur as well. Without a reliable source, it would be original research. — YoungForever^(talk) 23:56, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

I have to disagree this may be the case when the name has something as drastically different as the last name or first being changed but when the difference is just adding an l and an a in the end of the first name, we don’t really need a source to confirm that as again his names literally there just with la added on the end to show it’s a female version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.200.209 (talk) 16:19, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

About the edit dispute

An IP user was adding a link to Gabriel the Devil Hunter for the character Gabriella Rossetti, which had been previously done by other editors beforehand and reverted. The editor claimed it was confirmed to be a female adaptation of Gabriel the Devil Hunter, although the Deadline source that confirmed the casting of Gabriella Rossetti does not mention or confirm that the character is adapted from Gabriel the Devil Hunter. It may be very likely that the character is a female adaptation, although it has not been officially confirmed as such, so we cannot link to the page until it is confirmed by Hulu or Marvel. The editor also replaced the wording of the series being a "standalone story set within the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU)" with the wording from the other pages, although this was previously decided to not be used as Hulu refers to it as a "standalone story" in the MCU. I've only been restoring the proper versions of the page from the edits that were previously reverted. This is a similar case to the linking to Iron Maiden on the Black Widow (2020 film), it may be likely to be the same character, but it has not yet been confirmed. It is best not to link to the character until an official source states it as such. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:58, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Dude at this point it’s just gotten out to control you don’t need confirmation when the name is exactly the same besides like two letters and who also has exactly the same role and relation to the main characters as in the comics, let’s go over why Gabriella Rossetti is Gabriel the Devil Hunter and why it wasn’t reported.

1. Firstly Gabriel is such a minor character to begin with I doubt deadline would go out of their way to state the obvious I mean come on it’s prettu clear she’s a gender swapped version.

2. If you did your research you would know there is only one character in marvel comics with the name Gabriel Rossetti and that’s Gabriel the Devil Hunter, again I can see why your confused because the article says Gabriel The Devil Hunter but you have to understand that is his alias like Namor The Sub-Mariner, his real name is Gabriel Rossetti.

3. Additionally Gabriel Rossetti in the comics was a exorcist and member of the Vatican like Gabriella is described as in the synopsis for the series, in addition it states she has a strong link to the helstroms, and the only member of the Vatican strongly linked to the Helstrom twins is Gabriel Rossetti, so unless you can source someone else it’s unlikely this character is Anyone else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.200.209 (talk) 16:16, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Here on Wikipedia, we do happen to need confirmation that the character is an adaptation of a character with a similar name. Per the discussion on here above, it has been decided that you need an official source to confirm that the character is an adaptation, and that if it is added without such a source, it is WP:OR. It is very likely that she's a gender-swapped version, but that's not been officially stated by Marvel or Hulu, so we can't add it. In this case, it is best to be patient and wait until Marvel or Hulu officially confirm the character is a female adaptation, but as of now, that is not confirmed, so we can't add it. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:30, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

That may be the case if the character has a different last name but when the difference is just 1 Letter I think that it’s just a little silly to have to cite a source for something which is pretty obvious, going by your logic Daimon Helstrom isn’t Daimon Hellstrom because his name is missing one l, which again is something which is pretty ridiculous, anyway Gabriel the Devil hunters names already there it’s Gabriel Rossetti with an a added on and before you talk about the last name Rossetti can be spelt either as that or as Rosetti, again your acting very immature and warping Wikipedia rules to suit your argument because I’ve read original research and that only applies for like charcters where there’s no info at all but at this point multiple sites have already stated her to be an apdatation of Gabriel the Devil Hunter, and before you shout unreliable I’ve looked at Wikipedia’s list of unreliable sites to cite and the one I linked earlier didn’t appear on it so as far as I’m concerned it’s is ok as the information on it is accurate and matches up and even cites the deadline one, adding more to its credibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.202.209 (talk) 16:42, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Here’s the article again for your viewing pleasure and anyway there was a version of Gabriel the Devil Hunter who was female and also called Gabriella as an alternate university counterpart to Gabriel it was from the counter earth reality where there was a female Bucky Barnes also called Rebecca “Rikki” Barnes so this ain’t a new concept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.202.209 (talk) 16:56, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Unlike with Damion Hellstrom to Damion Helstrom, which was confirmed by Marvel and Hulu, Gabriella Rosetti being the same as Gabriel Rosetti / The Devil Hunter has not been confirmed by Marvel or Hulu. It is very likely to be such, but since it has not been confirmed, we can't add it. That's the policy. If you don't agree with it, that's fine, but I'm just enforcing it with what's been officially confirmed. Please be patient and wait until an official source confirms it. Blogs can say all they want, but just be patient. Trailblazer101 (talk) 17:14, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I’ve tried explaining myself but your just being unreasonable look His name is Gabriel Rossetti. Her name is Gabriella Rossetti. They’ve both part of Vatican. They’ve both exorcists. They’ve both related closely to Daimon / Satana which was elaborated on in the deadline report. It’s not that they’ve names are similar they’ve exactly the same besides the la on the end and Rossetti can either be spelled like that or with one s (Rosetti) so it the s is the thing which is influencing your argument well news flash it can either be spelled Rosetti or Rossetti they mean the same thing which is relating to the colour red. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.200.145 (talk) 17:19, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

It appears the IP is performing a bit of WP:SYNTH. We're in no rush, let's wait for the reliable sources to come to confirm this, not use our or a sources speculation on the matter. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:14, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Again I’ll say this again this is not speculation Gabriel the Devil hunters real name is Gabriel Rossetti and they just added an la on the end to show that it’s a female interpretation it’s not that hard to understand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.22.153 (talk) 20:42, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Season article and template

PhilCoulson20 As a new user, I strongly urge you to slow down a bit and familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. To both of your creations, the season article is WP:TOOSOON, given a) the series has not even premiered yet, b) WP:SIZESPLIT applies, and c) moves to individual season articles are not even considered until a series has been renewed for a second season. And with this series' case, that seems highly unlikely. For the template, you need at least a handful of articles to justify a navigational template, and the only other related article to this is the Adventure into Fear, of which it is linked in article already at this time. Again, I suggest you slow down a bit. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:15, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Disney+

Helstrom is now available internationally as part of Disney+'s new content section Star. I know we are usually wary of adding international broadcasters due to WP:TVGUIDE but I was wondering if we think it may be noteworthy to add this since it covers so many territories and Hulu is only available in the US. - adamstom97 (talk) 07:01, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this should be fine, because it's covering a large global territory, many of which are primarily English speaking per WP:TVINTL. And also since Star is more or less Disney's international Hulu entity, that can be covered here since it's a Hulu original. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:23, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Not on the Infobox, but in the body prose. Hulu is the only original network. — YoungForever^(talk) 18:23, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I think due to the scope of Star's reach for international availability, especially for Hulu-specific content, is noteworthy to bring up in the "Release" section only. If we do get any other details about it's Star release (like if viewership, etc.) those could be expanded on, but I doubt we'll get anything else. So,yes, it should be added. Trailblazer101 (talk) 21:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

 Added. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:38, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Here's a press release from Disney confirming Helstrom as a Star original if it's every needed to replace or supplement the source we used. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:05, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Series is officially not MCU

Per this quote from the creator, along with the quote previously discussed up thread. It seems fairly unambiguous to me. In the first quote, he says not only that it isn't in the MCU, but that it isn't canon. I know there are minor details in the show that some argue make it MCU canon, but given the fact that Loeb is no longer with the company, and when he was he only publicly stated that the cancelled "Adventure into Fear" block and the Ghost Rider series in particular would have acknowledged the past, which was a source of confusion when the show was announced, I don't think his quotes are particularly relevant. I move that we remove the Marvel Cinematic Universe mentions from this page and any other pages that tie Helstrom to the MCU, which simply is not accurate.

To summarize, my reasoning is as follows:

1. The showrunner has said explicitly and repeatedly that the show is not part of or tied to the MCU, and that it is not bound to its canon.

2. Jeph Loeb is no longer with the company. While his single comment at the Comic-Con panel about how Ghost Rider would acknowledge A.O.S. is often cited as proof that this series is canon, plans have changed. Ghost Rider was cancelled, notably due to arriving at a "creative impasse" with Hulu, and the Adventure into Fear block never came into fruition. By the time the series was released, Kevin Feige was in charge of creative output for the Marvel brand.

3. The show was decidedly not branded as part of the MCU. Both in the original announcement for the show linked above, in which sources "[stressed] that this will be a completely new iteration of the character in no way connected to the “Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.” storyline" (S.H.I.E.L.D. is cited by proponents of canonicity as the connective tissue that ties the Adventure Into Fear shows to the MCU, based solely off of Loeb's quote above,) and in the lack of any Marvel branding at the time of the show's release, it does not meet the criteria of being marketed as part of the MCU.

ChimaFan12 (talk) 03:56, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I've reverted your edits. Per the past discussions on this, nothing has changed in that time frame. And quotes like "It's not in the MCU" don't mean as much any more with Marvel taking a multiverse approach. It might not be in the "sacred timeline"/main universe, but it still can be telling a standalone story in the MCU, which we're stating. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:54, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that argument does not hold up. The showrunner specifically said it was not in the MCU and the show was never marketed as being part of it. This is a separate quote from him saying the show was not "tied" to the MCU, and has not been discussed in this thread. In this quote, he explicitly states that it is not part of it. The multiverse does not suddenly make every Marvel-inspired content MCU, and per Wikipedia's core content policies, specifically on verifiability and no original reserch, we cannot include "any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources." If the show is not branded as part of the MCU and is stated not to be a part of it, the show cannot be unequivocally stated to be part of the MCU without violating Wikipedia policy. ChimaFan12 (talk) 23:12, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

The sources of the same individual make contradictory claims about the series' ties to the MCU. Every source up until the release said without ambiguity that the series was part of the MCU. Many of the people who worked on Helstrom backed that up, including Loeb when the series was announced. Paul has said opposite things in different instances, so we have a source dispute. We have more to say it is than it isn't, and that has nothing to do with WP:NOR. That's why the consensus is what it currently is. Rman41 (talk) 03:16, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Could you explain where the contradictions lie? Frankly, between the full quotes of both sources we have from Zbyszewski, there is no doubt that the series at the time of release was not part of the MCU, and I cannot find anything from him, or any press releases from Marvel, tying it to the MCU at any point before then. Could you provide some sources, please? ChimaFan12 (talk) 03:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

If you read the conversations above, you will see sources that are WP:RS that acknowledge that Helstrom is part of the MCU, and that it was intended to be from the beginning. In one of those sources from ComicBook, while Paul does explicitly state the series is not connected to the MCU, he then goes on clarifying that with a statement that uses the word "universe" in a context different from continuity itself. So that statement means nothing and doesn't explicitly contradict Helstrom being part of the MCU. The previous record of the show being in the same continuity as Ghost Rider, set in the same continuity as Agents of SHIELD, both of which we acknowledge to be MCU, thus still stands. Certainly, as the sources above also state, the show does present evidence of being set in the MCU continuity in itself. Original research plays no role here. Rman41 (talk) 03:31, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

As Favre said, nothing has changed here. The show was announced as being part of the MCU, made by people whose works were all part of the MCU, and definitely originally intended to have connections to the MCU. It ended up not having many of those connections and being reasonably standalone, but Marvel has never come out and said whether any of the Marvel TV shows are non-canon or not. The showrunner may have said it is separate, but he was mostly talking about connectiveness, and he is not involved with Marvel Studios who are the actual arbiters on what is and is not MCU canon. Add to all of that the whole multiverse side of things (not in the main marvel universe does not necessarily mean not in the main "MCU" franchise) and we are left with a slightly complicated situation that needs further clarification before we make any changes. - adamstom97 (talk) 03:41, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

I've read the conversations and the sources. Only three, from what I've seen, come from Zbyszewski: this quote, which is the one that you're referring to which was mentioned in ComicBook.com, this one from EW, and this one from Looper. The full quotes in question are, from each respective source:

"There are easter eggs in the show, for sure, but they're more towards that Helstrom universe, and that Ghost Rider universe, and sort of the darker sort of part. We are not tied to the MCU, we are our own separate thing. It's freeing, honestly."

"Now, the House of Ideas bounds into horror with Hulu’s Helstrom — which purposefully lacks the ownership signifier 'Marvel's' that every other show in the universe carries. 'Not having the red box over the title is a way of telling the audience that this is something different,' says showrunner Paul Zbyszewski. 'We are siloed off [from the Marvel Cinematic Universe]. Part of it is [because] it’s a darker-themed show than the other Marvel shows on other platforms.'”

"'It's not part of the MCU,' showrunner Paul Zbyszeweski clarifies to Looper while promoting the release of Helstrom's debut season. 'We are our own thing.'"

and from the Looper source once again:

"Far from being a hindrance, the complete exclusion from the MCU made Zbyszewski's work easier. 'There was a freeing sort of feeling about it because canon can be heavy. It is a weight on your shoulders,' the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. veteran explains. 'And to have just this little pocket of the universe, because of what it is — the style and tone and thematic sort of darkness of it—- it needed to be its own thing.'"

None of these quotes state or even imply that the show is a part of the MCU. Furthermore, the show was not, in fact, announced or even marketed as being part of the MCU. Here are links to the show's announcement, from Marvel, from Deadline, and from Variety, the lattermost of which states that the Ghost Rider show would in fact not be connected to Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., and none of which make any mention of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. As for the other arguments, I would direct you to points 2 and 3 of my initial post in this thread. There is no proof that the show is part of the MCU, and certainly all the sources I have discussed in this post contradict that notion. ChimaFan12 (talk) 04:01, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Addressing specifically the claim from Variety, this source from Entertainment Weekly went on to contradict that: https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/01/hulu-ghost-rider-helstrom-series/

That's not really relevant to this discussion, as I've mentioned, but it is yet another contradicted claim to add to the pile here. The way this show was marketed is pretty consistent with the rest of Marvel Television, save for the exclusion of the Marvel logo. That includes not being specifically branded as "Marvel Cinematic Universe", but that doesn't matter because we have RS to support that anyway. Rman41 (talk) 04:41, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

The quote regarding the cancelled Ghost Rider show is as follows: "Marvel fans will know Gabriel Luna plays Robbie on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.,and EW has confirmed Luna will also star in Ghost Rider, which will also be executive produced by S.H.I.E.L.D. EPs Paul Zbyszewski and Jeph Loeb. According to Hulu, this isn’t a traditional spin-off of S.H.I.E.L.D. but will focus on the 'same character with [a] new story that lives unto its own.'" That does not contradict what was said by Variety, and certainly has nothing to do with Helstrom's connection with the MCU following the cancellation of Adventure into Fear and the recalibration of Marvel Television in general.

Unlike with shows such as Runaways and Cloak and Dagger, we have been told explicitly by the showrunner in this instance that the show is not a part of the MCU. While I am in favor of re-evaluating the MCU status of those shows, in this isolated case we simply do not have enough evidence to make a positive claim that the show is MCU canon. ChimaFan12 (talk) 04:57, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

We also know why the branding was removed, and it has nothing to do with the series not being set in the MCU, as explained by this source: https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/helstrom-no-marvel-logo-reason-revealed/ Rman41 (talk) 04:45, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

I will leave these sources here just so that it is known for the record that Helstrom was known publicly to be MCU long before the showrunner's odd contradictory statements became a factor: [1][2] Rman41 (talk) 04:54, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Public speculation is not equivalent to confirmed information. From my understanding, the reference to the Marvel Cinematic Universe is not based on any sources, the sort that are present in both the Entertainment Weekly and Variety articles. ChimaFan12 (talk) 05:09, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

You misunderstand. I am not presenting these as evidence of public speculation. They aren't particularly good evidence of that. These are sources that say Helstrom is part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, showing that sources knew that to be true during this timeframe. These *are* the sources as far as Wikipedia is concerned, just as Variety and Entertainment Weekly are. These are not simply individual accounts. Rman41 (talk) 05:43, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

The articles aren't comparable. Variety and EW are reporting based off of their direct sources and mention this fact. EW name-drops the sources for each claim, be it Hulu or Ingrid Escajeda. Variety refers to unnamed sources for their claims. Indiewire makes no such reference to any source when asserting the show is branded a Marvel Cinematic Universe show and is not pretending to have inside knowledge. If something is branded any certain way, that is a matter of public observation. Anybody would be able to see it if it happened, or it would be obvious if it did not. In this case, it is obvious that the show was not branded as part of the MCU at any point by Marvel. Slashfilm likewise merely asserts that the show is the "next Marvel Cinematic Universe entry" without any reference to a source. ChimaFan12 (talk) 06:18, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm not really sure you understand how sources work in context of Wikipedia. These *are* sources and the claims they make are considered as such. They are media outlets reporting something to be the case. On Wikipedia, the only consideration given from there is whether they are reliable sources, and these sources are not currently listed in Wikipedia's perennial sources list, nor its deprecated sources list. They thus are entirely valid, not to say that there aren't others that contradict them. I know there are, although every single one of those ones is favoring a very specific interpretation of what Paul says on the matter, which I disputed above in its original context. Rman41 (talk) 06:37, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

"The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content." ChimaFan12 (talk) 07:04, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

I think this situation is similar to I Am Groot; executive producer James Gunn indicated that I Am Groot was not part of the MCU canon, but it later became clear that Gunn's personal thought was not shared by others involved with I Am Groot. In relation to Helstrom, we have Zbyszewski indicating that the show is not part of the MCU. However, not to mention Loeb's statements, the easter eggs within the show itself indicates that other people involved in the production saw the show as part of the Marvel TV shared universe (by extension, the MCU) in some way. YgorD3 (talk) 12:27, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

I redirect you to point 2 of my original post in this thread. Separately, this quote from a separate discussion on this page:

“Roxxon is a long-time comics entity, and the article as a whole reinforces that the show is not tied to the MCU and is in fact, its own separate thing. Secondly, production companies reuse assets all the time. The initial trailer for Morbius used both an image of Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man and the Daily Bugle logo from his universe, while simultaneously using the Oscorp building from Andrew Garfield's universe. It does not seem like strong enough evidence to warrant the claim that they share the same universe” or brand. See point three in the top post here. No producer with Marvel is claiming the show is set in the MCU.ChimaFan12 (talk) 20:06, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Morbius is irrelevant to this discussion; yes its trailers suggested it's MCU, but it's not relevant nor the SSU's connections with the MCU. Roxxon is fine since it also exists in comics, but you're ignoring Loeb's (who was the head of Marvel Television and stayed with the show until MTV dissolved into Marvel Studios, after its writing stage) statement and misinterpreting the showrunner's statements (though, admittedly it's confusing and contradictory). See the above discussions, nothing changed between October 2020 and now, it's still telling a standalone story set in the MCU, which is accurate. You're quite in denial. — SirDot (talk) 02:20, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

The Morbius conversation was strictly referring to the recycled assets from the separate Raimi and Webb Spider-Man universes, and that recycled assets do not guarantee shared continuity. I again direct you to point 2 of my argument. The conclusion that there is enough evidence to describe Helstrom as part of the MCU based off of what was presented was in error, in my eyes, and not supported by Wiki policy. ChimaFan12 (talk) 03:55, 10 September 2022 (UTC)