Talk:Hellenic Parliament

Comments

I think "Parliament of Greece" would be a better title than "Hellenic Parliament" for two reasons. First, the pattern 'Parliament of XXX' is the usual one in Wikipedia: we have Parliament of Italy, for example, not 'Italian Parliament', the literal translation of Parlamento Italiano. Secondly, "Hellas/Hellenic" is not the common name for Greece in English, as has already been discussed in Talk:Greece many times. Thoughts? --Macrakis 02:44, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with this rationale. Should the article be moved to Parliament of Greece, with Hellenic Parliament as a redirect? -Fsotrain09 22:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Apart from Vouli ton Ellinon the Greek Parliamment is also known as Ellinikon Koinovoulion in Greece, not Koinovoulion tis Ellados. Therefore Hellenic Parliament is an exact translation of the the term often used in Greece (i,e. Ellinikon Koinovoulion) and thus preferable. Given that Greece is the origin of Democracy the translation should try to reflect the Greek terminology. Dr.K. 15:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Macrakis. All the articles about the Parliaments follow the pattern 'Parliament of XXX'. Are we trying to be original by creating our own pattern? And I donot agree that the translation should be exact. If we believed that, then we should name the article about our country Hellenic Republic not Greece, because Hellenic Republic is the "exact" name of our country. Translations must be clear and understandable not "exact"! And the argument that "Greece is the origin of Democracy" is irrelevant. If the title of the article changes, are we going to forget that "Greece is the origin of Democracy"?!--Yannismarou 12:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The same way there is Boule (Ancient Greece) we can rename the Hellenic Parliament as Boule ton Ellinon if we must rename it at all as there is already the precedent of the ancient Greek Boule article. By calling it Parliament in the first place we don't do justice to the term Boule that comes from the Greek will, not from Parlez that means talk i.e. Parliament. However Hellenic Parliament is still a rough analogy to Ellinikon Koinovoulion. By renaming it Parliament of Greece we obscure all possible Greek onomatology and therefore we lose in the translation. We should be more careful when doing that because the craftsmen of Democracy have created terms that we can learn from. If we iron these terms so that we fit a pattern why then don't we rename the Knesset to Parliament of Israel? We kept it as Knesset for a reason: out of respect for the original Israeli term. We should show the same respect for the onomatology of the original craftsmen of Democracy. Dr.K. 13:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Because Knesset is the way all the world knows the Parliament of Israel. By naming it Knesset we donot obscure its meaning. On the other hand, "Greek" has the exact same meaning with "hellenic" with one difference: "Greek" is the word everybody now uses! Not "hellenic"! Even the Greek embassies are obliged to clarify what "Hellenic Republic" means, because nobody understands the origin of their official documents! Hence, "Greek"="Hellenic"="of Greece". And "Greek" or "of Greece" is preferable, because these are universally the common terms! How do we lose in the translation?

Now, "Κοινοβούλιο" comes from the hellenistic word "κοινοβούλιον" not the ancient Greek word "βουλή". And "κοινοβούλιον"=general Assembly. But Parliament means also "general Assembly"! And I ask you again how do we lose in the translation? And since "κοινοβούλιον" is a hellenistic word and it does not mean the same thing with "βουλή" why you say that: "We should show the same respect for the onomatology of the original craftsmen of Democracy". But they did not create the word "κοινοβούλιον"! They created the word "βουλή" not "κοινοβούλιον"! The successors of Alexander who was not a democrat created the specific word!!

Additionally, in the Greek constitutional theory and science, "κοινοβουλευτισμός" or "κοινοβουλευτικό σύστημα" is a term used to describe the organization of modern parliaments. It is thus based on the evolution of the English Parliament. Thereby, even in Greek science the term "κοινοβουλευτισμός" is not connected with the ancient Athenian "βουλή", which represends a regime (direct democracy) comletely different form the current Greek regime (parliamentary democracy), center of which is the "κοινοβούλιον"(=Parliament); not an institution similar to the ancient Athenian "βουλή".--Yannismarou 14:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Quote: Now, "Κοινοβούλιο" comes from the hellenistic word "κοινοβούλιον" not the ancient Greek word "βουλή". But the hellenistic word does derive from βουλή by adding the term κοινο that means common, so it evolved into common will. Here we see a natural evolution from direct democracy to a representative one. This evolution is important historically and onomatologically. By κοινοβουλευτικό σύστημα we refer to a common will system not exactly what Parliamentary system implies as Parliamentary derives from Parlez i.e. to talk not to will as in common will implied by κοινοβουλευτισμός. I know subtle differences but Democracy is a subtle system. Common will carries different implications than common talk. So κοινοβούλιον is not the same as Parliament. By obscuring or papering over these differences or try to forcibly assimilate them we lose information. And that would be ok except English is such a rich and accomodating language. The alternative terms exist, let's use them. If one term is more popular than the other sounds too facile. We should not kill onomatology on the basis of a few Google hits. In time with the aid of a few redirects Boule ton Ellinon can become as popular as Knesset. Until then, let's stick with Hellenic Parliament in the interim since it's already here and it is a compromise since it uses the term Hellenic which is shared by the Boule ton Ellinon, the rightful final destination of the article title. There is no reason to further obscure its meaning by putting it to another onomatologically opaque vault. Differences are the essence of Democracy. Wikipedia should reflect that. Dr.K. 15:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

OK! Since Parliament of Greece redirects here it is not a major problem for me. Although I still donot understand why "hellenic" is better than "of Greece". Anyway ... I just want to insist that words do not always reflect the truth. The current parliamentarism is not the evolution of the ancient "direct democracy", but the evolution of the English system of representatives, starting with the Magna Carta. Hence, the evolution that the words show (from βουλή to κοινοβούλιο) is not reflected in the historical reality. What I mean is that the current parliamentary system is not the evolution of the Athenian "radical" or "direct democracy". Respectively the current Parliament (κονοβούλιο) is not the evolution of the ancient Boule (βουλή). I must also point out that in the Greek legal (consitutional) science "κοινοβούλιο" and "κοινοβουλευτισμός" mean exactly the same thing with "Parliament" and "parliamentary system". We are lying to ourselves if we believe that the democracy we have now is the evolution of the Athenian democracy! It is not!! It is the mere evolution of the English (by- or unicameral) parliamentarism. And the English parliamentarism is not influenced by the Athenian democracy.--Yannismarou 16:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree on the redirect comment. As to the origins of Parliamentarianism I am sure even though we owe a lot to the British, the Greek version of Parliament i.e. Koinovoulion, if not a direct evolution of the Athenian Democracy, at least it carries an echo of it and points to a slightly different form of applying Democracy. What I was trying to point out is that these subtle nuances should be preserved, irrespective of the direct lineage to antiquity or not because they help us better understand and analyze the concept of applied Democracy. Anyway thanks for a stimulating discussion. Dr.K. 16:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Βουλή των Ελλήνων is a genitive plural, so it should be Parliament of the Greeks. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 00:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

More precisely Boule of the Hellenes. Dr.K. ^λogos_πraxis 00:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Using Greek words instead of English does not make for more precision. The English word for "Boule" is "Parliament," and the English word for "Hellene" is "Greek." Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 03:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

But they have been adopted in English, thus they are English words now. Second "Boule" does not mean Parliament. It means "will". You wanted to transmit the correct declension to the title. That wouldn't do any good if you suppress the correct etymology of the word "Boule". Dr.K. ^λogos_πraxis 07:08, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think "Boule" has been adopted into English except among historians of Ancient Greece. It's true that most educated people know that "Hellenic" means "Greek" but "Greek" is still the standard English word. And regardless of the etymology of "Boule" it is still the Greek word for "Parliament." Anyway I don't intend changing the title of the article so there's not much point arguing about it :) Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 02:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Intelligent Mr Toad for an interesting discussion. It was nice talking to you. Take care. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 00:05, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 11:26, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

---

Hellenic Parliament → Parliament of Greece – Per WP:COMMONNAME. This is consistent with other national parliaments, see the contents of the Category National legislatures. Also, we tend to avoid "Hellenic" and similar terms, e.g. we call the last Greek king Constantine II of Greece even though his formal title was "King of the Hellenes". Nobody uses the term "hellenic" in normal English usage. PatGallacher (talk) 16:20, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose This is how they call themselves: www.hellenicparliament.gr. Also Google search "Hellenic Parliament" yields 444,000 results while "Parliament of Greece" yields 71,500 results so it is not the WP:COMMONNAME. In addition the term "Hellenic" is a recognised word in the English language. Finally if Knesset is ok then Hellenic Parliament" should also be fine. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 16:47, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose; perfectly cromulent formulation. Powers ^T 19:31, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per Dr.K.'s thorough analysis. – Kosm1fent 20:22, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Support – Kauffner raises a good point. I personally looked for "Parliament of Greece" and got nothing on GNews, but since "Greek Parliament" receives more hits than "Hellenic Parliament", I'm inclined to agree. – Kosm1fent 04:51, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Notice how "Greek parliament" is not capitalized in various sources because it is a colloquial description, rather than the proper name of the institution. We don't title Monarchy of the United Kingdom the "British monarchy" or the President of the United States the "American president." The term "Hellenic Parliament" gets far more hits than "Parliament of Greece" and that is what we care about. --Jiang (talk) 11:22, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose as per Dr.K --Philly boy92 (talk) 22:12, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support. No hits for "Hellenic Parliament" on the New York Times site ("Hellenic Parliament" site:www.nytimes.com), and only 6 on CNN ("Hellenic Parliament" site:edition.cnn.com). "Greek parliament" is the common name by an overwhelming margin, 5,570 GNews hits to 9. This becomes "Parliament of Greece" under Wiki's style conventions. Kauffner (talk) 03:56, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
  • I fail to see how "Greek parliament" should automatically become "Parliament of Greece" - there is no such convention on Wikipedia. If "British monarch" is more common than "Monarch of the United Kingdom", do we decide to move the article from "Monarchy of the United Kingdom" to "Monarchy of Britain"? Some countries commonly use the adjectival form for their institutions - this is a case by case determination. "Hellenic Parliament" -wikipedia gets over twice the number of results as "Parliament of Greece" -wikipedia.--Jiang (talk) 11:31, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
    • See WP:Naming conventions (country-specific topics), as well as category:Parliaments_by_country. Kauffner (talk) 13:07, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
      • WP:Naming conventions (country-specific topics) is a very short guideline and the first thing it does in its disclaimer at the top of its page is to say to treat the subject with common sense and the occasional exception. This is exactly what Jiang has established in his arguments for this title. Inside Category:Parliaments_by_country there are exceptions such as Category:Japanese parliaments and Assembly of the Republic of Portugal and not Parliament of Portugal. Hellenic Parliament is one such exception along with Argentine National Congress, General Council of Andorra, National Assembly of Azerbaijan etc.. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 13:38, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
      • This is referring to a specific institution/organization (a proper noun, not a description of a topic) so Wikipedia:Naming conventions (country-specific topics) should not apply. While this article should be called "Hellenic Republic", the overview article on Greek politics should be at Politics of Greece instead of "Politics of the Hellenic Republic" because that in contrast is a descriptive title for which there is necessarily consistency within Wikipedia. Similarly Hellenic Army (as with other military articles on Wikipedia such as People's Liberation Army and Royal Navy) is not located at "Greek Army" because this points to a specific organization instead of being a mere description. --Jiang (talk) 14:42, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. When it comes to naming national parliaments, there is neither consistency in the real world, nor is there consistency on Wikipedia. In fact, the convention on Wikipedia is to use the common form of the proper name, rather than to use a descriptive "Parliament of X" title. Wikipedia is not a news source - any ambiguity apparent in the name can be resolved by in-text explanation and linkage. see Knesset, Diet of Japan, Bundestag, Althing, Oireachtas, and Lok Sabha. Here, Hellenic Parliament is a proper name and not a descriptive name. "Parliament of Greece" or "Greek Parliament" is a descriptive name. "Parliament of Greece" is improper because "Hellenic" and "Greek" are different words in the English language; Greek is not acting as a mere translation of Hellenic.--Jiang (talk) 06:24, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
• Comment I agree with Kaufner. If you look at the contents of the National Legislatures category, "Parliament of X" is the normal term. I am not sure that we should stick with all the cases where another term is used, but some of these terms are well-established in English e.g. Knesset, Bundestag. Why not go the whole hog and use its actual Greek name "Vouli ton Ellini"? This could be the only article in this category which does not use either the actual name in its native language, or what would strike most English speakers as a natural term to use, using the normal name of the country in English. The Wikipedia article Hellenic says that this is an alternative term for Greek. To many English speakers "Hellenic Parliament" could sound like calling the Scottish Parliament the "Parliament of Caledonia". PatGallacher (talk) 09:36, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
  • I don't see the value of changing various "National Assembly of X" "Federal Parliament of X" etc. to "Parliament of X". Why try to force consistency where none exists in the real world? Redirects are sufficient. We could very well change this article to "Parliament of the Hellenes" but we should not move it to "Vouli ton Ellini" because no such convention exists for naming Greek institutions in English. "Hellenic" is a recognizable term and we should use it where it forms part of a proper noun, rather than for no apparent reason but Wikipedia internal consistency to replace the proper name with a mere description. For the same reasons, Second Hellenic Republic should not be moved to "Second Greek Republic" - that would be inappropriate. --Jiang (talk) 11:14, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Excellent points. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 13:38, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose for all the reasons mentioned above. Constantine ✍ 14:46, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
• I quote Fowler's Modern English Usage: "Nevertheless, Greek remains the English word, into whose place the Greek words should not be thrust without special justification." PatGallacher (talk) 00:25, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
  • I thought all the myriad of comments from above provided the special justification in spades. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:18, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
  • This is the name of an institution. Should be rename Hellenic FC to Greek FC and Hellenic Airlines to Greek Airlines as well? --Jiang (talk) 02:03, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Image : visualizing or not the +50 bonus

Two images are available. One show the balance of power. One allow visualization of the +50 bonus, and the real balance of legitimacy.

visualizing +50 bonus, visualizing the balance of legitimacy

visualizing the balance of power.

Use the one you want. Yug (talk) 19:13, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

The "real balance of legitimacy" is the 129 MPs ND currently has. Signaling the 50 bonus seats is not justified, as no reliable source distinguishes those 50 seats from the rest. – Kosm1fent 19:53, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I too prefer the second, because that is the composition of Parliament, plain and simple, and that is what shapes the national politics. Demarkating the +50 seats and effectively implying that they lack legitimacy is simply wrong. For one thing, the electoral law is the law and would equally apply to any party, and extra seats have been allocated to the first party in most elections since 1974 (although never as many), without anyone having to denote them separately. If one is interested in the actual electoral balance, one has simply to compare the percentages of votes. Constantine ✍ 08:54, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm no expert in Greek parliamentary politics, but the fact that 50 seats are awarded as winner-takes-all rather than proportionally seems like extremely vital information. The first image shows it perfectly, IMO. "simply to compare the percentages of votes" defeats the point of having a graphic in the first place. Powers ^T 15:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

The information can be conveyed without what is in essence a big pointy-y remark saying "look, 50 extra seats!". BBC for instance simply added "includes 50 extra seats for coming first" in the legend of similar depict ions, and that is fine. There is no need to denote the seats separately, implying reduced "legitimacy" or something... Constantine ✍ 15:15, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

As I said before, the 50 bonus seats have no less or more powers than the rest MPs, so signaling them out (using different colors) would be inappropriate. Moreover, there is no issue of "legitimacy", as distribution of the seats took place under the Greek electoral law. – Kosm1fent 15:28, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I would perhaps suggest a delimiter, then, such as a colored outline, around the 50 seats, rather than coloring them differently. Powers ^T 02:05, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Best translation of Ανεξάρτητοι Δημοκρατικοί Βουλευτές

Hello all,

I have changed the translation of the newly formed group "Ανεξάρτητοι Δημοκρατικοί Βουλευτές" from Independent Democratic MPs to Independent Republican MPS. As I was reverted, I'd like to explain my edit and hear other opinions per WP:BRD, before reverting back.

I believe that in this context it is wrong to translate Δημοκρατικοί by Democratic. The English-language concept of democracy is best translated in Greek by λαοκρατία/laokratía, while δημοκρατία/dimokratía is better translated in English by Republic, as in the official name of the country: Ελληνική Δημοκρατία/Ellinikí Dimokratía/Hellenic Republic. That makes it a false friend. As for political statements, I agree that this group has none, as it is a pure coordination group of independents from all the political spectrum, except the extreme. Also note that this term is also used on List of members of the Hellenic Parliament, June 2012–present and fr:Parlement grec. Place Clichy (talk) 09:11, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Calling it a false friend is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Although δημοκρατία can be translated as both "democracy" and "republic", it is taken to mean the former except where it explicitly refers to the latter. You're quite right that Ελληνική Δημοκρατία is translated as "Hellenic Republic", but what about Νέα Δημοκρατία or Δημοκρατική Αριστερά? Furthermore, the use of the term republican in English often implies a contradistinction with monarchist that would be quite misleading in this context. ·ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ· 20:03, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Although the exact translation is probably republic/republican, the word/concept of Republicanism is completely foreign to Greece and Greeks. Indeed, as it is usually associated with the US Republican Party and the right-wing, it would be completely wrong to, for example, translate DIMAR (a leftish party) as Republican Left! Indeed, MPS making up the new party come from all sides of the political spectrum. Thus, the correct translation (note the difference between exact and correct translation which may not always be the exact one) should be democrat/democratic. User: Panionios1890(talk) 19:00 (EET), 5 February 2014

I agree 100% with ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ above. "Republican" in a Greek context would mean anti-monarchist, and post-1974 this is a moot issue. The meaning here is "Democratic" as it is commonly understood in English. Constantine ✍ 18:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Chaotic article

In all honesty, this entire article reads like an MP's manual on how the parliament works. Is that really what the article should do? Do we really need to know how it operates in excruciating detail? This entire article should be re-written in my opinion, it is far too chaotic to be useful. In my view, the article should provide a general overview of the processes of how the Parliament works, what its responsibilities are, about its history and the history of its building - not an actual 30,000-character manual of operational procedures. There are seven sections on history - why?! It could be all merged into a nice section giving a general overview of the historical background, or broken into more concise subsections instead of having one section per period. There are no less than 20 sections on parliamentary procedures. Is there any reason we need to know every single subcommittee of every subcommittee of the subcommittee of a committee? Why is this relevant in an article intended to give a general overview of the Parliament? Anyone who wants to know exactly how it works can read the constitution and the Parliament's procedural guide. Does anyone else feel that this article is out of control and needs urgent re-writing? I personally feel that it is discouraging people from reading it (myself included). Wikipedia is not a law book, it's an encyclopedia. --Philly boy92 (talk) 18:03, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Government composition

On top of the meriad of issues with this article, I would like to point out that the infobox, under "Government", is intended to show which parties are part of the government. Not everyone who gave the government a vote of confidence. If anything, the Government right now should effectively only list Syriza (145), with a note that 6 other MPs give it confidence. --Michail (blah) 15:26, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

"Hellenic Parliament", "Ελληνικό Κοινοβούλιο", "Vouli ton Ellinon" and "Βουλή των Ελλήνων"

Hello. It came to my notice that in the lead, the "Hellenic Parliament" (which normally translates to "Ελληνικό Κοινοβούλιο") was presented as being the english form for the term "Βουλή των Ελλήνων" (which normally should be translated into "Will of the Hellenes" or "Parliament of the Hellenes").

I have attempted to correct this problem with the following edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hellenic_Parliament&type=revision&diff=905798892&oldid=905399867&diffmode=source

However, if one visits the Hellenic Parliament's official website at:

https://www.hellenicparliament.gr/el/ (the Site in Greek language, where it is officially called "Βουλή των Ελλήνων" - transl. "Vouli ton Ellinon", meaning "Parliament of Hellenes" in English)

https://www.hellenicparliament.gr/en/ (the Site in English language, where it is officially called "Hellenic Parliament", meaning "Ελληνικό Κοινοβούλιο" in Greek)

will notice how the term "Hellenic Parliament" is used as the official english language's equivalent of the Greek term "Vouli ton Ellinon" even though the one isnt an accurate translation of the other. Also notice how even the official emblem of the institution is different name in each of the two language versions of the website - not the exact same name, but slightly different.

I am wondering if we should provide the additional info to the readers like how I did with my edit, or shall we revert to the previous version which officially uses two slightly different terms for the institution in different languages? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 14:35, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

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