Talk:Heck horse/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: FunkMonk (talk · contribs) 02:55, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Hi, I'll review this article soon. In the meantime, I think the article could need a bit more on what the tarpan actually is, beyond just "the extinct tarpan". Just a short summary, where it lived, when it became extinct, etc.. After that, I'd also suggest a bit more comparison between the heck horse and the tarpan, to show what similarities and differences there are. And I think source 4 could probably be used for more than a single sentence. I'll also ask for a second opinion from DFoidl , he seems quite an expert on the subject. FunkMonk (talk) 02:55, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Are details of the Tarpan really needed on this page? I'll add a few details however. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 09:09, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

FunkMonk, as I stated on your talk page, I would really appreciate a copy of ref #4, if you still have it available (as you are the one that originally added it to the article). There is a brief description of the tarpan in the first sentence of the History section - part of it was already there and part of it Rsrikanth added. As for similarities/differences, basically the Heck horse is by outward appearances almost identical to the Tarpan, but is genetically completely different. I thought I had made this clear in the article, but if you have any suggestions on where this can be made more obvious, please let me know. Thanks for taking on the review, I look forward to the remainder of your comments. Dana boomer (talk) 15:58, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Just a side comment as someone who is too involved with previous edits to the article to do this GAN review, but I also have not edited this article in a while, I see no need to go into any detail on the Tarpan here, as it violates WP:UNDUE. The question of what the "T/tarpan" was actually is very complicated, as some people use the word "tarpan" to describe all generic ancestral wild horses rather than the specific equus ferus ferus The last known Tarpans may have themselves been hybrids to boot. We really don't want to open all that up in this article, IMHO. Montanabw^(talk) 03:39, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• When I asked for slightly more about the tarpan, it is mainly for comparative purposes. After all, this is about a breed that is bred to look like it, so I would expect to see at least a short summary of how the tarpan itself actually looked like, for comparison. Just a line or two about colouration, for example. See for example Heck cattle, there is mention of differences between it and the aurochs, and of published criticism of the resemblance, I'd suspect the Tarpan has been similarly evaluated?

• Currently working on this... Dana boomer (talk) 02:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• Sometimes Tarpan is not capitalised, this should be consistent.

• Should now be consistent. Dana boomer (talk) 02:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• "to resemble the extinct wild equine, the Tarpan, (Equus ferus ferus)" I'd shuffle it around and say "to resemble the Tarpan, an extinct wild equine." Seems a bit too waffling now.

• Changed to your wording. Dana boomer (talk) 02:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• What are "zebra markings", doesn't seem to be present on the photos.

• The photos in the article aren't high enough quality to see them. They're horizontal bars of darker colored hair on the legs...there's a fairly good photo (from another breed) at Primitive markings. Dana boomer (talk) 02:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• "and attractive when being driven" Seems a bit subjective.

• Do you have a proposed rewording? Basically, many people who drive horses like high-stepping horses because they're flashier, i.e. more attractive. Dana boomer (talk) 02:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Could you say "because it is considered more attractive" or some such, so it is clear it is subjective? FunkMonk (talk) 02:57, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• I think the sourcing is a bit thin, but I guess no more could be found? Tried Google scholar and Books?

• Yes, sourcing is a bit thin on this breed overall - it took quite a bit of digging to find what is here. I've combed through Google Books and Scholar and came up with what is currently in the article. I did find one rather cool source while looking for an answer to one of your questions above, though, so working on integrating that right now. Dana boomer (talk) 02:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• I see no problems with the rest of the article, but I'd try to ask for the old Oryx Heck paper at the resource request, to get some more background and context. FunkMonk (talk) 00:26, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• I've requested the Oryx article at Resource Request, hopefully someone will have it! Dana boomer (talk) 02:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• All looks like it's on the right track then, let's see if what Heck said in his own words is of any use... FunkMonk (talk) 02:57, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

The Heck paper is now online, seems there are some nice details that could be added. FunkMonk (talk) 06:07, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

OK, I've had a chance to integrate a few bits from the article. Was there any further details that you were looking at specifically in the article? Other than that, I think I've addressed everything above, unless I've missed something. Dana boomer (talk) 22:45, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• I had a look at the article too. Most of it looks OK, although some sentences perhaps should be edited. F.e. the history section says: "During World War II, wild and domesticated horses were taken from German-occupied countries to use in the Hecks' breeding program" What wild horses? I think this refers to the Koniks that were imported from Poland, which are of course not wild horses. That should be changed IMO. The article also says: The Hecks had conducted a similar breeding program in hopes of recreating the auroch, resulting in what would become Heck cattle. Animals of this type were also released into the Bialowieza Forest. I think the notion that one herd of Heck cattle were released to Bialowieza prior to 1945 should be removed because it would only mislead the reader, which might assume that these Heck cattle would still live there. But this herd was of Berlin origin and did not live past 1945, and it would be unnecessary to explain all that in an article on the Heck horse. I also think that the photo of the Heck horses at Hellabrunn could be moved to the top of the History section instead of that from the Haselünne, because the former shows horses that are less influenced from the Konik and therefore look more like what the Hecks initially bred, while that from Haselünne shows one of those almost-Koniks. DFoidl (talk) 06:26, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
• Alright, now I think the article covers all it should, passed! Did you add the other new source you mentioned? And this seems to be a pretty good photo: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wildpferde_Tripsdrill2.jpg FunkMonk (talk) 05:47, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you! Yes, I integrated the other new source (the Latvian one that I used for the description of the tarpan and the population info in Latvia), but it didn't have as much good info as I originally thought it would - it would be a better source for the Konik article, as that breed makes up the majority of the feral horse population in Latvia, apparently. That is a very good photo, but I'm not completely convinced they're Heck horses. I can't find any reliable sources giving the breed of the "wild horses" in that park. I would love to include the photo (it's beautiful), but would like to be more sure as to the actual breeding of the horses first. Dana boomer (talk) 11:46, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The website of the park seems pretty confused: "Wildpferd (Tarpan) (Equus przewalszii caballus)"[1] FunkMonk (talk) 12:04, 21 April 2014 (UTC)