Talk:Hannibal Directive/Archive 1

Ben-Melech

Marokwitz deleted the entire section on the death of Israeli citizen Yakir Ben-Melech at Erez crossing, claiming that “No reliable source links this with Hannibal Directive”. There is a problem with “reliable sources” in a country were these sources often are prevented from reporting on this sensitive subject by military censorship. The source I had supplied was a report on the Israeli “Ha-Oketz” site, which admittedly does seem to have a clear human rights/peacenik/liberal slant. Which I don’t think should automatically disqualify it as a reliable source.

www.haokets.org/2009/12/08/ידיד-נפש-אב-הרחמן-כך-הרגו-את-יקיר-בן-מלך/

This particular report however was written by independent journalist Meron Rapoport, who used to be head of the news department at Haaretz newspaper, and Prof. Kobi Peterzil of Haifa University. The report clearly claims that Ben-Melech was shot to death under the Hannibal directive. It also cites interviews with Zvi Fogel, the former head of IDF Southern Command, as well as an Israeli radio reporter. I therefor wrote: “There has however been suggestions that the real motive behind the shooting was the Hannibal directive. IDF Southern Command did not want yet another Israeli falling into Hamas' hands.” I think my source more than covers this quite cautious claim. I don’t think that this case is that important, but I do object to Marokwitz efforts to twist the issue of the Hannibal directive to a thing only of the past. I am aware that the Hannibal directive is considered an extremely sensitive issue by the military in Israel. I fail to see any reason why Wikipedia should apply the same attitude.

Any comments?

Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 12:00, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

It is not a reliable source, however I don't object to including as long as clear attribution to the authors is provided, plus a translation of the relevant part for non Hebrew readers. Marokwitz (talk) 08:50, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Please enlighten me because I'm new at Wikipedia. Is it unreliable because Ha-Oketz is a leftist site or because Rapoport/Peterzil are unreliable persons? It seems to me that Arutz 7 and Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs are OK as sources at Wikipedia. My interpretation - which may be wrong - is that Rapoport had tried to have this published in more reliable venue but failed because of censorship.

Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 21:17, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Both the sources you mentioned are not considered reliable sources for most types of unattributed facts, especially not for controversial statements not confirmed by other sources. They can be used in articles but require clear attribution, and a more objective source is always preferred. This is similar to the IDF spokesperson, their response is notable and can be included with attribution, however under no circumstances should this source be used for unattributed facts. Regarding Ha-Oketz, I am not very familiar with this site but from my research it appears to be a platform for opinions, without much editorial oversight. It is more a blog than a news site. Questionable sources are generally unsuitable for citing contentious claims. The proper uses of a questionable source are very limited. So, as I said I think it should be given the same level of validity as we do give sources with a clear agenda such as the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs - with clear inline attribution to the source - to allow the reader make the decision. For further information I refer you to WP:SOURCES. Also please read WP:NOENG. Marokwitz (talk) 07:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

There's a word to be said here of source selectivity. Ha-Oketz, a non WP:RS, says one thing, but more credible sources, Ynet, Channel 10 and Walla (=Haaretz) say otherwise. The man apparently did not say a word and was never recognized as an Israeli subject and possible hostage. A paragpraph that fails to mention that the opinion expressed by a source is at odds with more mainstream sources, has no place in the article. Furthermore, JG, edits should not reflect your interpretations of events, nor your perceptions of the role of Israeli military censorship in Israel. As interesting and well-founded as those may be, that's speculative original research and you may find that other editors disagree with you. Poliocretes (talk) 09:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, point taken. Unless we find some confirmation from other sources, or clear indications that mainstream media is prevented from reporting about the incident, it is probably not true and we leave out.Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 16:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Declaring Hannibal directive?

The IDF spokesman denies that the Hannibal directive is a "standing order". Which may well be true in the sense that the directive is not part of IDF rules of engagement. Many reports talk about Hannibal being "declared" or "invoked". This could suggest that the Hannibal procedure has to be ordered by an officer. It would improve this article if someone could sort out this issue. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 11:19, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

So an IDF soldier cannot ever surrender?

Aren't these abductees normally called POWs? Isn't an abduction the same as a surrender? Is it OK for soldiers of other armies to surrender (under certain circumstances)? Isn't this unfair to the individual soldier?--Soylentyellow (talk) 21:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

During my service in IDF in 1998, which included an extensive deployment in South Lebanon, I remember that this order was passed along to us. The motivation for stopping the abduction at any cost was that the irregular forces like hezbollah did not adhere to any international treaties, did not follow established POW exchange procedures and engaged in brutal torture of their captives. Basically, being captured by them was and, to my knowledge, still is considered worse than death. As history shows - with good reason, I'm afraid. 24.37.95.6 (talk) 19:48, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Hadar Goldin

Removing material below pending better sourcing.. Although this appeared in an early, online verison of article, it is not in the current version of the NYTimes article.

During protective edge 2014, after soldier Hadar Goldin was kidnapped, the IDF proceeded to bomb the area, and later declared him dead.

.ShulMaven (talk) 20:29, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

References

Guy Levy

26. July 2014

• http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13930511001182
• http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2014/07/26/israel-murders-idf-soldier-to-prevent-his-kidnapping/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by HannibalGo (talk • contribs) 17:32, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Death via Hannibal Directive

The original mention was removed which had just the NY Times ref. Since then there have been a lot more. Here's just a few: Haaretz; Israel's I24news; IB Times; National Post.

I don't have time in next few days to deal with it but encouraging others to do so. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:25, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Note: Working on this now, I see that at some point the NY Times cleansed this text which someone else originally quoted and which I verified before using it as a ref! On Friday, Israeli forces immediately used a protocol for captured soldiers known as “Operation Hannibal” to pursue the Hamas squad into the tunnel and try to cut off any possibility of escape. Hannibal includes intense pursuit and an option to engage the enemy “even at risk of the soldier,” Colonel Lerner said. Hopefully, other sources haven't done the same! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:16, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

That text and the non-verifying reference should be self-reverted immediately. There is no RS for this extraordinary claim. SPECIFICO talk 13:43, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like somebody didn't look at the refs; fixed i24news one. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:51, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Reliable sources, anyone?

Editors of this page who insist that the Hannibal Directive is a "secret protocol" of the IDF are violating basic Wikipedia principles. If there were a reliable source, the directive would not be secret. The only thing that is known for certain is that there are various claims that the protocol exists. Since the 2003 article by Sara Leibovich-Dar, claiming that the the protocol was official between 1986 and 2000 and was then abolished, the claims about the protocol's continued existence are from increasingly biased and unreliable sources. Consequently, I am changing the tone of the article to indicate that there are claims about the protocol's existence, rather than implying that there is reliable, irrefutable evidence.Jdkag (talk) 09:14, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I know it probably doesn't count for much since it's "original research," but for what it's worth, I didn't even realize this is not the IDF's official policy. I served in the IDF from 2008-2009 and I was instructed by my commanding officer that should a capture occur, we must attempt to stop at all costs. Obviously, the goal is to avoid all casualties. But it was made clear to me that if the only choice is between the captive's death and his capture, his death is preferred. I accepted this as official policy, although this wiki page says the policy died in 2000. Effy Shaf (talk) 10:48, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Ronen Bergman

From interviews with Ronen Bergman, I get the impression that he does not agree with the version given in Leibovich-Dar's article about the capture of three soldiers in Sheb'a farms / Har Dov in October, 2000. According to her, Israeli helicopters attacked 26 vehicles moving out of the area, to prevent Hizbullah from moving the prisoners. That should have resulted in dozens of casualties. The problem is that I can't find any confirmation of dozens of casualties in Lebanese sources. If there is anybody with access to Bergman's 2009 (Hebrew) book, please check his version and add to the article.

Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 00:47, 2 February 2022 (UTC)