Talk:Gun laws in Minnesota

Open Carry of Long Guns

Regarding the open carry of long guns: While the table notes "no", MN Statute indicates that this is legal. Refer to 624.7181 subd. 1 (b) (3): "'Carry' does not include: ... the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun by a person who has a permit under section 624.714", the statute referring to being the Personal Protection Act. Any objection to correcting the table on this page and the summary page?

Edit: The row "Carry permits issued?" contains the description "A carry permit also allows for the carry of long guns." The carry permit itself is only for a pistol, so the "no" to indicate carry permits for long guns is correct. However, 624.7181 allows for permit-holders to also open-carry long guns, hence it seems as though OC of long guns should read "yes" rather than "no". GMW (talk) 22:07, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. "P.S." If by "the summary page" you mean Gun laws in the United States (by state), that page has transclusions of the tables from the individual state articles. In other words, if you change the table in this article, the change will automatically be reflected in the other article. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:11, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

@Optimus edit: Read. Terrorist96 (talk) 16:59, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

@Terrorist96: Regarding the open carry of long guns: While the table notes "No", MN Statute indicates that this is illegal. Refer to 624.7181 subd. 1 (b) (3): "'Carry' does not include: ... the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun. "Whoever carries a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a gross misdemeanor."

"...carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun by a person who has a permit under section 624.714", this statute only covers permit for pistol (this is even written on the permit itself "Permit to carry pistol"), this does not include long guns (rifles) as no permit exists. Open carry for a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun is still considered illegal. Optimus edit (talk) 18:47, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for finally deciding to discuss your edits rather than simply reverting edits. Yes, the permit is specifically for pistols, but that doesn't negate the law about the exception. The law says that if you have the pistol permit, then you are exempted from the definition of carrying when it comes to carrying BB gun, rifle, or shotgun. If you don't accept this, then you can confirm with other sources. http://www.citypages.com/news/gun-permit-holders-can-legally-carry-rifles-in-minnesota-target-stores-6537274

quote: Minnesota's statute pertaining to "rifles and shotguns in public places" says, "Whoever carries a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a gross misdemeanor." But the definition of "carry" exempts "the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun by a person who has a permit."

And that permit is the permit listed in 624.714, which is the pistol permit.

It's not unusual for states to have laws like this. For example, Virginia forbids open carry of assault weapons in certain cities/counties, but people who have a conceal carry permit for handguns are exempted from that law. Terrorist96 (talk) 18:43, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

@Terrorist96:"Open Carrying of Long Guns: Six states, California, Florida, Illinois, Massachusetts, Minnesota and New Jersey, as well as the District of Columbia, generally ban the open carrying of long guns (rifles and shotguns)." http://smartgunlaws.org/open-carrying-policy-summary/

From the NRA "Permit to Carry rifles and shotguns: No" https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/minnesota/ Optimus edit (talk) 18:58, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

@Optimus edit:From your own source: http://smartgunlaws.org/open-carrying-policy-summary/ "46. Minnesota generally prohibits the open carrying of long guns. Minn. Stat. § 624.7181, subd. 2. Concealed weapons permit holders are exempt. Minn. Stat. § 624.7181, subd. 1(b)(3)."

And yes, NRA is correct in that Minnesota doesn't give permits for long guns, because they are covered by the handgun permit.Terrorist96 (talk) 19:23, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

@Terrorist96: Minnesota does not have a concealed weapons permit, it is a permit to carry pistol (it can be carried openly or concealed). In the statue for permits it makes no mention of long guns being included in a permit to carry pistol, nor does 624.7181 include permit to carry pistol. An exclusion to the law doesn't make it an inclusion. Optimus edit (talk) 21:11, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

@Optimus edit:It doesn't matter what you call it. If you have the license from section 624.714, you are exempt from the law. And with that, I'm done engaging with you. Perhaps someone else like @Mudwater: would like to chime in.Terrorist96 (talk) 21:53, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

It seems to me that the table should say "Yes" in the Long Guns column of the Open Carry row. For handguns, you need a permit to carry, and then you can carry either concealed or openly -- but without a permit, it's illegal -- right? And if you have a permit to carry a handgun, then you're also allowed to carry a rifle -- right? So, I'm not clear on why "No" would make sense here. Also, here's another secondary source from the LCPGV site: "Open Carrying in Minnesota" — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:22, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

The permit to carry a pistol doesn't include long guns and there isn't a permit to carry long guns. It seems a matter of opinion not how the law is stated that long guns are permitted open carry by pistol permit. When you apply for a permit it is a "permit to carry pistol", on the permit itself it states "permit to carry pistol". You won't find long guns on the permit application the permit statue or on the permit itself. I believe that's very good reasoning the law doesn't allow carrying of long rifles especially when it specifically says they are illegal subdivision 2. Optimus edit (talk) 23:54, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

I think you're having trouble following the logic. It doesn't matter that the permit to carry a pistol doesn't include long guns. A separate section says that if you have that permit, you're also entitled to carry long guns. Verbatim from Mudwater's link:

"Minnesota generally prohibits the open carrying of rifles and shotguns in public.2 This prohibition is subject to the following exceptions:

• The rifle or shotgun is being carried to, from, or at a place where firearms are repaired, bought, sold, traded, or displayed, or where hunting, target shooting, or other lawful activity involving firearms occurs, or at funerals, parades, or other lawful ceremonies;

• The rifle or shotgun is unloaded and in a gun case expressly made for a firearm and which fully encloses the firearm with no portion of the gun exposed;

• The person has a permit to carry a handgun;

• The firearm is an antique firearm that is being carried as a curiosity or for its historical significance or value; or

• The firearm is being transported unloaded and in the closed trunk of a motor vehicle.3"

Every source supports this. http://handgunlaw.us/states/minnesota.pdf, http://smartgunlaws.org/open-carrying-in-minnesota/, http://smartgunlaws.org/open-carrying-policy-summary/

Having a permit to carry a handgun can give you extra rights, like for example, in some states, if you have a permit, you can be exempt from getting a background check. The permit is not for background checks, but that's a benefit that comes with it. It's not a matter of opinion; it's the law. Don't believe me? Go ask your local sheriff and he'll tell you the same thing. The pistol permit exempts you from the law against open carrying long guns. End of story.Terrorist96 (talk) 00:07, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

• Subdivision 1.Restrictions. A person may not transport a firearm in a motor vehicle unless the firearm is:

(1) unloaded and in a gun case expressly made to contain a firearm, and the case fully encloses the firearm by being zipped, snapped, buckled, tied, or otherwise fastened, and without any portion of the firearm exposed;

(2) unloaded and in the closed trunk of a motor vehicle; or

(3) a handgun carried in compliance with sections 624.714 and 624.715.

You cannot open carry a long gun in a car, there is no exception for long guns except at a gun range.

A pistol is defined as:

• Subd. 2.Pistol. "Pistol" includes a weapon designed to be fired by the use of a single hand and with an overall length less than 26 inches, or having a barrel or barrels of a length less than 18 inches in the case of a shotgun or having a barrel of a length less than 16 inches in the case of a rifle.

A "permit to carry pistol" doesn't include long guns. The exception is for "pistols" as defined by the state. A rifle with a stock doesn't qualify as a "pistol" since it's not designed to fired single handed, rifle barrel length less than 16" would be a short barrel rifle which is a NFA weapon, same goes for shotgun with barrels less than 18". The only rifle, shotguns allows are "pistols". Optimus edit (talk) 05:30, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

In the interest of getting more editors involved in this discussion, I am pinging several editors who I have seen contributing to gun law articles in the past: @Gaijin42, SantiLak, Bender235, and Mike Searson: The basic question is about the Long Guns column of the Open Carry row, in the summary table, and whether it should say Yes or No. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 14:05, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

References

Capitol Notification

In 2015, the Legislature effectively removed the restriction on "Any state building within the State Capitol Area, unless the commissioner of public safety is notified (MN Statute 609.66)" by making that notification automatic. https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.66#stat.609.66.1g — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abrothman (talk • contribs) 23:18, 2 October 2015 (UTC)