Talk:Gillanders

Merge with Clan Ross

There isn't a Clan Gillanders, atleast the article doesn't show there is one. Gillanders is a sept name. There isn't really anything of substance in this article, its just a fork of Clan Ross. The website that this article draws from is actually describing Clan Ross anyways. I doubt there every could be any substance to this article. I suspect the crest, motto, coat of arms stuff is misleading. Just pulling from the net any coat of arms for the name Gillanders doesn't legitimise anything. I propose a merger with Clan Ross.--Celtus (talk) 09:13, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

RE: Merge with Clan Ross

Indeed Gillanders is a sept of Ross, but that doesn't mean that its not a clan. I'm sure originally all Scottish clans came from one clan, until they all split into separate septs. The content of this article doesn't belong on the Ross page, therefore making sense that it would be on its own page. The motto is correct unless there are variations in its translation. As for the motto and crest I am less sure of, there has been a lot of research into the matter but that was some time ago now. Dukenemesis (talk) 09:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

You never really addressed anything. It isn't a recognised clan. The article is is based on a web page about Clan Ross. You've basically just quickly lifted info from it and changed Ross to Gillanders and created your own clan. Clans don't have mottoes, people do. In the case of clans, it is the chief's motto which is relevant. There is no Clan Gillanders, there is no chief. Same goes for arms. Basically i'm repeating myself.--Celtus (talk) 10:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I addressed what you said but it looks as though you didn't bother reading it. Maybe you should look up the definition of the word clan. There is a difference between a clan and a Scottish Clan. You pronouncing that Gillanders isn't a clan isn't much help to anyone unfounded, just as much as what you were saying to me.

After researching the matter I came across this:

The word clann in Gaelic means children of the family. Each clan was a large group of related people, theoretically an extended family, supposedly descended from one progenitor and all owing allegiance to the patriarchal clan chief. It also included a large group of loosely-related septs – related families - all of whom looked to the clan chief as their head and their protector.

That makes a lot more sense than what you were trying to say. You accuse me of "quickly lifting info from it [a website] and changing Ross to Gillanders". Those allegations are unfounded. What I put on this page has been researched from those various sites and what is relevant to 'Gillanders' has been placed here. I had no intention to "created my own clan" as you put it. I am putting up a information about a surname that is a sept of a Scottish Clan, which I mentioned. I was originally oblivious to what made an actual clan and thought that a sept was then a clan in its own right. From the online research I've done I found a motto and arms, from different resources. I saw no reason to distrust them. It is true that there is no "Clan Gillanders", even though it may be referred too a clan. Basically I'm repeating myself, you haven't taken the time to justify your allegations to help improve the article. The article has been moved. --Dukenemesis (talk) 11:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Scottish clans are families recognised by law in Scotland. Not every Scottish family is a Scottish clan, not every Scottish surname is a Scottish clan. So, taking a surname and putting "Clan" infront of it doesn't make it a Scottish clan. Finding a surname on a sept list, or finding a coat of arms and a motto, on a website doesn't make it a Scottish clan either. The webpage you gleamed information for this article is about a recognised clan —Clan Ross— not about a "Clan Gillanders". Since the information in this article is only about Clan Ross it should be merged and redirected there.--Celtus (talk) 05:23, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Your starting to sound like a broken record. I know Scottish clans are families recognised by law in Scotland, and I know putting "Clan" infront of a surname doesn't make it a Scottish clan. I never said that it did. For your information I didn't find a surname on a sept list; I put it there. Finding a coat of arms and motto for a surname doesn't make it a Scottish clan? No kidding.. Again you're spiting our irrelevant information. The information from that website is referring to "Gillanders", is it not? How is this article only about Clan Ross? I don't see this information on any other page on Wikipedia. The information in question doesn't belong on the Clan Ross article, making sense that it would be on its own page. Dukenemesis (talk) 08:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm just explaining to you why an article on Clan Ross is notable and encyclopaedic, and why one on "Gillanders" is not. That webpage is about Clan Ross. It only mentions that Clan Ross is "sometimes referred to as Clan Anrias or Gille Andras/Gillanders"— that's all your basing this whole article on, when it could easily be mentioned in a sentence or two on the Clan Ross article.--Celtus (talk) 10:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully this is more clear than what i've tried to explain -> Wikipedia:Content forking. --Celtus (talk) 04:24, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Would you cite Clans and Families of Ireland and Scotland - An Ethnography of the Gael A.D. 500 - 1750 C. Thomas Cairney, Ph.D as a valid source of information? Dukenemesis (talk) 08:09, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

No less reliable than any other clan book. Here's one person's review of it. It describes the names Ross', Gillanders' and O'Bollans as one family.--Celtus (talk) 05:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

That review makes a point; he has not referenced any of his information. However that information would still have had to come from somewhere whether referenced or not. I'm not saying its correct. Dukenemesis (talk) 09:42, 29 November 2008 (UTC)