Talk:Florida A&M University/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Maps
I'm disturbed that the dot on the map is not even in Florida! Maps not my expertise. Karisuestokes 16:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Possible Plagiarism
Is it just me, or is the history section lifted almost wholesale from the FAMU History page [1]? -FrYGuY 04:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing that out. Kushboy 16:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- It's not just you. The law school section, at least, was cut-and-pasted from the university website, right down to the anachronism ("will admit its first class in 2002"). I fixed that, and removed a large number of empty peacock phrases. On the other hand, I think there should be a Wiki page for Leander Shaw Jr. Markjoseph125 (talk) 21:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
External links modified
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External links modified
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External links modified
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- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120814085519/http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/12000.html to http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/12000.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121219124022/http://www.enquirerherald.com/2012/12/11/2218493/scandals-threaten-famus-accreditation.html to http://www.enquirerherald.com/2012/12/11/2218493/scandals-threaten-famus-accreditation.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100609090635/http://pharmacy.famu.edu/bluepill.php?sect=includes%2Ffactsheet to http://pharmacy.famu.edu/bluepill.php?sect=includes%2Ffactsheet
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100203082149/http://law.famu.edu/go.cfm/do/Page.View/pid/13/t/1L-Class-Profile to http://law.famu.edu/go.cfm/do/Page.View/pid/13/t/1L-Class-Profile
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100609090424/http://pharmacy.famu.edu/bluepill.php?sect=includes%2Foverview to http://pharmacy.famu.edu/bluepill.php?sect=includes%2Foverview
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120404000905/http://www.thefamuanonline.com/news/families-find-housing-on-campus-1.2193346 to http://www.thefamuanonline.com/news/families-find-housing-on-campus-1.2193346
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100105013827/http://famurattlersports.com/ to http://www.famurattlersports.com/
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Pharmacy References
Is there any reference at all to back up the claim that the pharmacy school is #1 in federal research in the Southeast?
Bomb attacks
Should we include the two (I think) bomb attacks that occured in (I think) 1999? I don't remember if they were proven to be racially motivated or not, but there WAS a conviction, and I think it should be noted.
The other FAMU (film school in the Czech Republic)
There needs to be a disambiguation page or something to deal with the Filmová a televizní fakulta (Film and Television Faculty, abbreviated FAMU) in the Czech Republic, which does not yet have an entry in the English Wikipedia [2]. There's at least one entry -- Tessie Santiago -- where confusion between the two has been caused by the fact that the search term "FAMU" redirects to this page. GagHalfrunt 21:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
POV Edits
The descriptions of the colleges sound like something directly from University PR department. I guess POV flagging doesn't apply here since it's not politically correct to criticize anything to do with this school.
Copyright violations
Much, if not all, of the content added by Brison87 is taken verbatim from the Florida A&M University website ([3]), and thus is a copyright violation. I will delete this and restore the most recent non-copyrighted content as per Wikipedia:Copyrights. --Danelo 19:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- This also applies to 67.176.210.86, who is (judging based on their activity) most likely the same editor as above, just editing anonymously. Regardless, their edits are also taken from the Florida A&M University website, and thus are also copyright violations. --Danelo 20:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- As there were no major edits since the copyrighted content was added, I reverted the page to the last edit before it was added: on May 20 by Neutrality. --Danelo 20:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Additions to FAMU page
Hi - as a result of my work on the FSU page I've run across some interesting material that pertains to FAMU, specifically some historic graphics and related detail. I think inclusion of at least some of this historical information would add some interesting detail, so if no one has an objection I'd like to add some of this material to the FAMU page. Sirberus 14:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Apparently during the last year FAMU has removed from their website all references to (any)ROTC on their campuses... Emailed questions about this have not been replied to. Any ideas? Ref. to NROTC on FAMU http://www.famu.edu/oldsite/acad/colleges/cesta/naval-sciences.htm dead link... Ben (talk) 15:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Cached reference --Ben (talk) 01:11, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
New Website now contains references to ROTC --Ben (talk) 01:18, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
That would be a shame. FAMU was known for it's support of the military, especially the Navy. They had an extension office at NAS Cecil Field in Jacksonville for many years. I earned my degree thru that office. They always went the extra mile to support us, even having professors travel from Tallahassee to Jacksonville to teach classes. PaulNeb (talk) 23:39, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
Leander Shaw
Leander Shaw is a former Justice of the Florida Supreme Court.
John Paul Parks (talk) 01:01, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Move College of Engineering
I have proposed moving Florida State University College of Engineering to FAMU - FSU College of Engineering —(Discuss)— The college is a joint venture of Florida A&M University and Florida State University, and the article name should reflect that. -- Donald Albury 14:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Copyright problem removed
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Bilby (talk) 01:51, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Logos and Colors
Both the University Seal and the Snake Head athletic logo shown are trademarked indicia (and CLC licensed, to boot), yet they were posted with their trademark indicators (normally lower right) removed.
The University's official school colors are Orange and Green, and they are different Pantone colors (or specific hexadec, if you prefer) than the shades shown here.
These data can be confirmed with the University's Office of Communications' Licensing Coordinator. — Cheers, MoggieBleu (talk) 08:34, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
- Complaints about the use of non-free images, such as the FAMU logo and rattler head, should be addressed at the image files, File:Florida A&M University logo.png and File:FA&MRattlers logo.png. Both images are being used under claims of fair use. If the University feels that its copyright in the images is being infringed, it can follow the procedure given at Wikipedia:Contact us/Article problem/Copyright to seek a remedy.
- Is there an online source for the school colors? If not, is there a published source for the colors? If any fact in Wikipedia is challenged, it can be removed if a reliable source is not cited for the fact. -- Donald Albury 16:34, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
- Info on school colors is found on the school's Office of Communications' website. Pantone Matching System colors are Orange (PMS 151) & Green (PMS 348). These are not the standard web-safe Orange & Green, but I cannot find a consistently accurate PMS to hex color converter. Help would be appreciated in fixing this. I contacted the university, and an official told me that, although a 2008 chart listed White as a school color, that color is not official to the school. —Cheers, MoggieBleu (talk) 19:53, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Fight video
- Brown, David. "Video of fight could hurt FAMU recruiting image." Your Capital Bureau. Florida A&M University School of Journalism & Graphic Communication. March 27, 2011. - http://www.webcitation.org/67BIsAJtd
It discusses a video posted on World Star Hip Hop WhisperToMe (talk) 06:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- That doesn't seem like a particularly notable or high profile source. It's certainly not independent from the source. ElKevbo (talk) 06:25, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- It's an official university page - that means it's a primary source. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:03, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- The front page says: "Your Capital Bureau is a student-staffed news bureau in Tallahassee, Fla. The YCB reporters are students who are enrolled in journalism classes at Florida A&M University's School of Journalism & Graphic Communication. Each student is assigned to report news that Floridians want and need to know. Students also work as editors for YCB. YCB student journalists are taught by the faculty of FAMU's School of Journalism & Graphic Communication." WhisperToMe (talk) 07:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Wouldn't that fall into the definition of trivia? Seems pretty non-notable to me as well since it is a single incident.Absolon S. Kent (talk) 14:11, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Please read the source document. That single incident is put in the larger framework of a campaign to get students to attend the university. The authors fear that proliferation of this video could hurt the larger recruiting effort. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:12, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- A single student-written document does not merit inclusion in this encyclopedia article. ElKevbo (talk) 16:42, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- If it was a student written document on a free webhost etc. you would be right. However, in this case, it is a "single student-written document" done under the direction of university employees as part of an academic journalism program then it is eligible to be included. If someone finds more information about this campaign through multiple reliable sources, then this document can be included. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:33, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- What you describe sounds like a class assignment. I believe that student work below the level of a master's thesis is not a "reliable source" in the Wikipedia sense, even if published. Your Capital Bureau, IMO, is analogous to a student newspaper. The reliability of student newspapers and related publications needs to carefully evaluated. As you say, other reliable independent sources are needed to support inclusion of this minor incident in the article. -- Donald Albury 11:09, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- In regards to student newspapers, there have been discussions about them on the RS noticeboard:
- Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_86#uwire.com
- Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_90#Student_newspapers - Some of the statements included arguments such as including student newspapers if within realm of expertise (I.E. the campus), trying to find stronger sources for an issue if possible, and/or considering the publication itself - In this case the subject is FAMU and the students are FAMU students, so it is within the "expertise" of the publication. Also it has interviews of three FAMU students.
- WhisperToMe (talk) 12:24, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- In regards to student newspapers, there have been discussions about them on the RS noticeboard:
- What you describe sounds like a class assignment. I believe that student work below the level of a master's thesis is not a "reliable source" in the Wikipedia sense, even if published. Your Capital Bureau, IMO, is analogous to a student newspaper. The reliability of student newspapers and related publications needs to carefully evaluated. As you say, other reliable independent sources are needed to support inclusion of this minor incident in the article. -- Donald Albury 11:09, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- If it was a student written document on a free webhost etc. you would be right. However, in this case, it is a "single student-written document" done under the direction of university employees as part of an academic journalism program then it is eligible to be included. If someone finds more information about this campaign through multiple reliable sources, then this document can be included. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:33, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- A single student-written document does not merit inclusion in this encyclopedia article. ElKevbo (talk) 16:42, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Please read the source document. That single incident is put in the larger framework of a campaign to get students to attend the university. The authors fear that proliferation of this video could hurt the larger recruiting effort. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:12, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
It looks like they forced the president of Florida A&M to resign over the death of the drum major Kasanders (talk) 20:58, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Segregated hospitals
The article states, probably correctly, that there were white hospitals that would not treat black patients. The way this is worded however seems to presuppose the existence of a modern Medical Priority Dispatch System, which wasn't developed until after segregation barriers were dropped.
Here was the system: 1) identify person needing medical treatment. 2) Find a phone. Not every house had one, fewer in black communities. Might be phone box on street though. 3) In the 1950s, you would call the doctor who would come to the house 4) the doctor would determine whether the patient needed hospitalization or not. 5) doctor calls ambulance which, in Tallahassee might have a radio inside if driver was there to hear it. 6) ambulance brings patient to hospital. 7) hospital ensures patient is able to pay!,8) if not, patient is sent home (by streetcar?) 9) patient is admitted (if still alive!) to "ER" room which is just another hospital room. 10) doctor is paged. Not just sitting there waiting for patients! etc.
Another scenario has someone calling the BellSouth Operator (dial "O"). The operator would try to discover what kind of an emergency it was and try to contact the right people.
Another point with FAMU's generosity: 1) Did the patient pay or not? 2) if not, did the state pick up the cost? Neither black nor white hospitals had to take patients they didn't want to take!
Was FAMU hospital actually a training ground for interns and medical school students? Currently worded very off-handedly and unconscious of the realities of that age. Student7 (talk) 18:57, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Lowest graduation rate
The university has a (cited) graduation rate of 40% after 6 years, lowest in the Florida System, and probably, though it isn't written, one of the lowest in the United States. This has been censored. The reader should have this information available to him/her to draw their own conclusions or continue their research. Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED. Student7 (talk) 16:08, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- It is Florida news. See http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-03-14/news/fl-dlyons-editorial-famu-20130314_1_famu-students-robert-champion-graduation-rates and http://news.wfsu.org/post/famu-hot-seat-over-low-graduation-rates-and-student-loan-debt. Student7 (talk) 00:20, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Disambiguation of "FAMU"
Hi, does anyone have any objection if I make a disambiguation page at FAMU between this university and the Film and TV School of the Academy of Performing Arts in Prague, also known as FAMU? This article currently has more incoming links than the other FAMU due to greater coverage of US topics than Czech ones generally, but FAMU is an internationally-known film school that has been ranked on occasion as the best film school in Europe,[4] so it's not clear to me that this article is the primary topic, especially taking into account WP:GLOBAL. I will do it in the next couple of days if no-one objects? Jdcooper (talk) 02:04, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- User:Cuchullain, I would appreciate if you would explain your rationale here rather than just reverting, thanks. Please explain in particular how redirecting FAMU to this page doesn't violate WP:GLOBAL. There are wikipedia users outside the United States. Jdcooper (talk) 08:58, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, I missed your post. As I said, this school would appear to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the term FAMU. It dominates the page views by a wide margin,[5] and most Google Books and News results for FAMU intend this school. Given that it’s a WP:TWODABS situation, a hate note is better than a dab page when it’s clear most readers intend one topic over the other.—Cúchullain t/c 11:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hmm, I'll defer to you per the page usage stats, but I'm still not convinced this isn't an example of our systemic bias. If you are one of the watchers of this page, would you mind periodically checking the "what links here" page for articles linking directly to FAMU which actually mean the Czech one? As I found several when I was creating the disambiguation page. Jdcooper (talk) 18:30, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sure thing. And I'd agree with you on creating a dab page if there were more than 2 entries, but as we have it, people looking for the Czech school can find it through the hatnote here as easily as a dab page, without sending the majority of readers looking for the Florida school to a dab page as well. I haven't noticed too many incorrect links but I'll fix them when I find them.--Cúchullain t/c 20:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hmm, I'll defer to you per the page usage stats, but I'm still not convinced this isn't an example of our systemic bias. If you are one of the watchers of this page, would you mind periodically checking the "what links here" page for articles linking directly to FAMU which actually mean the Czech one? As I found several when I was creating the disambiguation page. Jdcooper (talk) 18:30, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, I missed your post. As I said, this school would appear to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the term FAMU. It dominates the page views by a wide margin,[5] and most Google Books and News results for FAMU intend this school. Given that it’s a WP:TWODABS situation, a hate note is better than a dab page when it’s clear most readers intend one topic over the other.—Cúchullain t/c 11:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Band hazing and its fallout
Another editor has begun an edit war to remove all mention of the 2011 hazing incident in which a band member was beaten to death. The incident resulted in several criminal convictions and the resignation of the university president among other significant impacts and received national and international coverage. He or she contends that the information only belongs in the article about the band despite the university-wide, long-lasting impact of this well-covered series of events. ElKevbo (talk) 07:12, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
- Agree. There is no consensus for removing this information. Student7 (talk) 16:08, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- I'm the logical editor against having the band hazing incident on the main page because it's on the band page where it belongs. Why is there a need to have it on both pages? And secondly, as I stated before ... many universities have had hazing deaths in the last 10 years but it's not on their main page. So ElKevbo and Student7 why is it staying on FAMU's main page? I have facts to prove what I'm saying so I'm needing facts from you all as to why it must stay on the main page..Broadmoor (talk) 14:05, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- It was international news and led to the resignation of the university president. If there have been similar incidents at other colleges and universities then those need to be in their articles, too. ElKevbo (talk) 15:32, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- ElKevbo BubbaJoe123456 Student7 Here we go again and I can't sit idly when I can prove biased and misleading editing is taking place. There is no precedent established where a university hazing death that made headlines is on the main page of any university. There's been so many hazing deaths at universities that made headlines and not one is on the main page of any university but suddenly it's OK to put it on the historically black one. Coincidence? I don't think so. And the president of the university never stated he resigned due to the hazing death of Mr. Champion (if so provide the link because I looked diligently) and he resigned almost a year later. From my thorough research, he had nothing to do with the culture of the band. It just so happened he resigned within a year of the hazing death and some poorly run media outlets falsely conflated the two with no evidence only to further sensationalize the hazing story which is poor journalistic integrity. Again, the hazing death is on the band's wiki page and that's enough. If you're going to add it to FAMU page, why have you not been adamant about adding the many high profile hazing deaths to the main page of applicable non-historically black universities around the country??? And where is the evidence the former president stated he resigned eight months after the death happened due to the hazing death??? If you can answer those questions at a satisfactory level, I will gladly not contest it on FAMU's page. Not to mention it was on the main page for years and was not too long ago removed, it's no longer as relevant. That was almost a decade ago. Broadmoor (talk) 16:13, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- This certainly seems like a very significant issue in the school's history, so maybe it should be a sentence in the history section, rather than the band section. It certainly appears to have had more far-ranging implications for the school as a whole than hazing deaths at other universities (band suspended, faculty and president resign, accreditation put on probation, etc.). As for the presidential resignation issue, we have reliable sources in cited in the article saying it was due to the hazing scandal. If there are other RSes that dispute that, or link the reservation to other events, then let's get them in the article too.BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 17:03, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- The cited source explicitly says "The fallout has already led to the suspension of the famed Marching 100 band as well as the resignation of its long-time band director and FAMU's president [emphasis added]." This is definitely the kind of important and consequential information that needs to be included in the article. A sentence or two in the history section, as BubbaJoe123456 suggests, would be sufficient if we leave the details in the band's article. But it's not acceptable to completely excise this information from the article completely. Nor is it acceptable for you to accuse other editors of being racist. Moreover, you know better than to edit war with others. ElKevbo (talk) 17:15, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Drive by third opinion here (this convo was mentioned in WP:UNI). But generally speaking for the university articles I've worked on (Canadian), I usually moved controversies to the history section (sorta of the opinion that smaller sections like bands should be contextual, to avoid getting overly detailed). While the controversy stems from from the band, the issue has had ramifications for the institution as a whole, making it more appropriate for the history section. That said, while I'm not opposed to rewording the proses, the idea of removing them entirely is sorta silly (like the consequences of the event are pretty notable for a university). Leventio (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2019 (UTC); edited 19:35, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Leventio BubbaJoe123456 I never said the death did not severely impact the university. I'm saying hazing deaths severely impact every university where it happens but I don't see no one making it point to add that information to the university pages where it happened. For example, what about the case of Max Gruver at LSU, George Desdunes at Cornell University, Nolan Burch at West Virginia University, on and so forth. All headline news as with every college hazing death in the last 15 years but no mention of it on the university page. I don't like the selective outrage I'm seeing, to me that constitutes biased and unethical editing. BubbaJoe123456 Your opinion is that the hazing death impacted FAMU worse than other universities, that's not based in fact and cited sources hence the biased and unethical editing which is why I'm challenging. Secondly and ONCE AGAIN, if the president didn't publicly state he resigned due to hazing you can't say he resigned due to hazing. The article you citing is mere speculation, it never confirmed the president stated he resigned due to the hazing controversy, especially given it was 8 months of the death. It's important you truly understand what you're reading before citing something as irrefutable fact spreading misinformation. Someone needs to be a vanguard against misinformation and biased editing.Broadmoor (talk) 22:09, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- The fact that you don't see coverage of it in another university article isn't grounds for excluding it from all others (I mean, as far as I know, if those events are notable enough, there shouldn't be anyone stopping people from adding it, its just a matter of who will do it). I can't speak for the president thing (if it is just speculative that should be removed), but even if we ignored the controversy itself, the consequence of getting placed on probation is noteworthy enough for inclusion in the history section imo (its why I'm sorta highlighting the consequences, being placed on probation would be a pretty notable event with regards to institutional history). Leventio (talk) 23:52, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Leventio Well what's more grounds for excluding it is the rampant misinformation and questionable editing practices. Clearly you all are not doing the NECESSARY due diligence to uphold the integrity and standards of Wikipedia. First of all, FAMU probation had nothing to do with the hazing death, it was TEMPORARILY placed on probation by an accreditation agency ONLY due to questionable financial transactions. Why would an accreditation agency put a university on probation due to a secret fraternity hazing ritual that the university knew nothing about??? FAMU (like every university) has always advocated against hazing but as a former college student I know college students engage in it anyway because it's tradition. There has been hundred of deaths linked to hazing rituals at universities across the nation and there's no record of any being in jeopardy of losing its accreditation due to it so why would they start now???? Accreditation ONLY looks at finances and operations of an institution which FAMU is now fully accredited. Also many of the people so adamant about adding it has a biased and unfair agenda against FAMU, almost everything I noticed they add was a negative smear of FAMU. As if they intentionally look for more negative things to add and conjure up which is another violation and complain I plan to file. Lot of the edits I'm seeing on this page are simply inaccurate, clearly biased with a negative slant, and just don't make any type of sense. Broadmoor (talk) 12:25, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- The fact that you don't see coverage of it in another university article isn't grounds for excluding it from all others (I mean, as far as I know, if those events are notable enough, there shouldn't be anyone stopping people from adding it, its just a matter of who will do it). I can't speak for the president thing (if it is just speculative that should be removed), but even if we ignored the controversy itself, the consequence of getting placed on probation is noteworthy enough for inclusion in the history section imo (its why I'm sorta highlighting the consequences, being placed on probation would be a pretty notable event with regards to institutional history). Leventio (talk) 23:52, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Leventio BubbaJoe123456 I never said the death did not severely impact the university. I'm saying hazing deaths severely impact every university where it happens but I don't see no one making it point to add that information to the university pages where it happened. For example, what about the case of Max Gruver at LSU, George Desdunes at Cornell University, Nolan Burch at West Virginia University, on and so forth. All headline news as with every college hazing death in the last 15 years but no mention of it on the university page. I don't like the selective outrage I'm seeing, to me that constitutes biased and unethical editing. BubbaJoe123456 Your opinion is that the hazing death impacted FAMU worse than other universities, that's not based in fact and cited sources hence the biased and unethical editing which is why I'm challenging. Secondly and ONCE AGAIN, if the president didn't publicly state he resigned due to hazing you can't say he resigned due to hazing. The article you citing is mere speculation, it never confirmed the president stated he resigned due to the hazing controversy, especially given it was 8 months of the death. It's important you truly understand what you're reading before citing something as irrefutable fact spreading misinformation. Someone needs to be a vanguard against misinformation and biased editing.Broadmoor (talk) 22:09, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Drive by third opinion here (this convo was mentioned in WP:UNI). But generally speaking for the university articles I've worked on (Canadian), I usually moved controversies to the history section (sorta of the opinion that smaller sections like bands should be contextual, to avoid getting overly detailed). While the controversy stems from from the band, the issue has had ramifications for the institution as a whole, making it more appropriate for the history section. That said, while I'm not opposed to rewording the proses, the idea of removing them entirely is sorta silly (like the consequences of the event are pretty notable for a university). Leventio (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2019 (UTC); edited 19:35, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- ElKevbo BubbaJoe123456 Student7 Here we go again and I can't sit idly when I can prove biased and misleading editing is taking place. There is no precedent established where a university hazing death that made headlines is on the main page of any university. There's been so many hazing deaths at universities that made headlines and not one is on the main page of any university but suddenly it's OK to put it on the historically black one. Coincidence? I don't think so. And the president of the university never stated he resigned due to the hazing death of Mr. Champion (if so provide the link because I looked diligently) and he resigned almost a year later. From my thorough research, he had nothing to do with the culture of the band. It just so happened he resigned within a year of the hazing death and some poorly run media outlets falsely conflated the two with no evidence only to further sensationalize the hazing story which is poor journalistic integrity. Again, the hazing death is on the band's wiki page and that's enough. If you're going to add it to FAMU page, why have you not been adamant about adding the many high profile hazing deaths to the main page of applicable non-historically black universities around the country??? And where is the evidence the former president stated he resigned eight months after the death happened due to the hazing death??? If you can answer those questions at a satisfactory level, I will gladly not contest it on FAMU's page. Not to mention it was on the main page for years and was not too long ago removed, it's no longer as relevant. That was almost a decade ago. Broadmoor (talk) 16:13, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- It was international news and led to the resignation of the university president. If there have been similar incidents at other colleges and universities then those need to be in their articles, too. ElKevbo (talk) 15:32, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- I'm the logical editor against having the band hazing incident on the main page because it's on the band page where it belongs. Why is there a need to have it on both pages? And secondly, as I stated before ... many universities have had hazing deaths in the last 10 years but it's not on their main page. So ElKevbo and Student7 why is it staying on FAMU's main page? I have facts to prove what I'm saying so I'm needing facts from you all as to why it must stay on the main page..Broadmoor (talk) 14:05, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Accreditors, especially regional accreditors, do not just look at "finances and operations of an institution." There are many other standards including some that specifically focus on student support. In this case, reliable sources explicitly document that this university was placed on probation by SACS in part because of this incident e.g., Tampa Bay Times, WFSU. ElKevbo (talk) 12:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- ElKevbo Operations is a big umbrella and the accreditation agency more specifically questioned FINANCIAL SPENDING habits of the band which goes into my point of it being purely financially and operation driven. The secret hazing ritual by a few members of the band may have brought more attention to the band but again it did not officially serve as a reason for the probation, the questionable spending habits and operations of the band was cited as official reasons by the accreditation agency which is the student life component referenced. The band misused traveling funds which negatively impacted students in the band. And again if hazing deaths results in accreditation probation, how come there are no records of any other university that had PROVEN hazing deaths on campus being placed on accreditation probation???? Max Gruver at LSU, George Desdunes at Cornell University, Nolan Burch at West Virginia University just to name a few. You won't find it because that isn't grounds of accreditation probation. Your rebuttal isn't well researched and a bit tone deaf.Broadmoor (talk) 13:00, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- The president of the accrediting body specifically said that "[t]he hazing scandal played a role in Florida A&M's accrediting troubles." ElKevbo (talk) 14:36, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- ElKevbo where did I deny the hazing death played a role in the inquiry of the accreditation agency?? AGAIN, I SAID THE HAZING INCIDENT WAS NEVER AN OFFICIAL CITATION BY THE ACCREDITATION AGENCY! The accreditation agency looked deeper into the operations of the band as a result of the hazing death and found misuse of student funds by the leaders of the band which was the official citation in the probation notice. This isn't rocket science. You're going in circles and nothing you sharing explicitly states hazing was the reason for the probation ... playing a role and being the reason are two very different things. It seems like you're blinded by what you want to see instead of the truth right in front of you which brings me back to the integrity issues of your editing practices. Broadmoor (talk) 20:19, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Couple of things. First: "if the president didn't publicly state he resigned due to hazing you can't say he resigned due to hazing" What matters is what RSes say, not what he said. If a CEO says he's resigning "for personal reasons," but RS press reports state that he's resigning because the company's performance has nosedived, it's entirely appropriate to say that in an article. In this case, multiple RSes state that his resignation was due to the hazing death, so it's appropriate to say that. Second: The article ElKevbo cited says "The hazing scandal played a role in Florida A&M's accrediting troubles, said Belle S. Wheelan, president of the Southern accreditor, but so did financial woes and concerns about the integrity of Florida A&M's administrative processes." So, that's the head of the accreditor saying that the hazing scandal played a role. In another article, it states "[Champion's] death also sparked state investigations, one which delved deep into the finances of Florida A&M University’s Marching 100 band. That investigation uncovered more than 100 non-students who were allowed to participate and travel with the band on the schools dime." So, it's clear at least that (a) the hazing death contributed to FAMU being put on probation, and (b) the investigation into the hazing death led to the discovery of other issues that were also causes of the probation. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 20:56, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- BubbaJoe123456 It ABSOLUTELY matters what the FAMU president said if integrity and misinformation matters. And it is misinformation and irresponsible for you or anyone to say he resigned for any reason outside what he publicly stated. The press speculate and give opinions all the time and that's exactly all it is, it's not 100% factual. However, the reputable press outlets got it right and just reported the facts. And again, your argument that he resigned due to the hazing death would be a little stronger if it wasn't for the fact he left ALMOST A YEAR AFTER IT HAPPENED. FIND AN ARTICLE WHERE THE FAMU PRESIDENT STATED IN WRITING OR SPEECH HE RESIGNED DUE TO HAZING??! The problem is you all can't tell the difference between speculation and opinions versus factual information. First the argument was the university was placed on accreditation probation due to hazing which hasn't been irrefutable proven, now the argument is he resigned due to hazing which hasn't been irrefutably proven either. And in reference to ElKevbo, you repeating a lot of what I said. And it sounds like you love to argue just to argue because it doesn't seem like you're reading and trying to understand what I'm saying ... why you feel the need to reword my words? And for the 100th time ElKevbo was saying the hazing death was an official citation for the academic probation, which is not true and poor understanding of the matter ... it simply led to a closer look into the band where citable fiscal wrongdoings were eventually uncovered by the accreditation agency. AGAIN, they can't take away a school's accreditation due to a secret fraternity hazing ritual that has never been sanctioned by the university but they can take it away for gross financial mismanagement which some in the band were found guilty of.Broadmoor (talk) 12:39, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- So just commenting ont he probation again, to reiterate my point (feel like that you may have misunderstood it). I was really trying to stress the fact that even if we ignore the controversy and just focus on the alleged consequential content (being placed on probation... also don't know why your stressing it was a temporary probation earlier... probations are inherently temporary), that is an event that is inherently notable for a university. Now how everyone else here decides to contextualize the rationale for the probation is one thing, but my point was, the probation itself is a notable event that it warrants inclusion in the article (and I've yet to hear a good reason for the exclusion of the probation itself). The probation prose can easily be reworded to reflect whichever rationale we decide upon. Also, the CNN link you provided up there is turning up as a broken link on my end just fyi. Leventio (talk) 20:42, 15 June 2019 (UTC); edited 20:55, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Leventio oh my gosh, the controversy isn't being ignored! I've said multiple times it's on the band's specific wikipedia page where it belongs. The was more of a band controversy, than a university one.Broadmoor (talk) 13:15, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- No dude, thats not what I'm saying at all... I'm asking you (not accusing you, like honestly I feel like your taking my statements as antagonistic... like I'm trying to push both of y'all to amicable solution) to purposely ignore the controversy, and then tell me if the statement "FUMU was placed on probation between 20## to 20##," is a statement you have a problem with.
- And I ask that cause I feel that everyone thats involved here is in agreement with the fact the school was placed on probation (and given this is a fact were all in agreement with here, that portion of the contested content would therefore warrants inclusion). Now I know you just said the reason for probation (whether its financial misuse, or band related hazing) originates from a smaller group, and the related information can be placed in that article too. But the probation itself affected the entire institution, so I'd argue it at least warrants a mention in its institutional history section. As for why the school was on probation, I'll leave that to you guys to decide. Leventio (talk) 23:14, 16 June 2019 (UTC); edited 23:15, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Leventio oh my gosh, the controversy isn't being ignored! I've said multiple times it's on the band's specific wikipedia page where it belongs. The was more of a band controversy, than a university one.Broadmoor (talk) 13:15, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- So just commenting ont he probation again, to reiterate my point (feel like that you may have misunderstood it). I was really trying to stress the fact that even if we ignore the controversy and just focus on the alleged consequential content (being placed on probation... also don't know why your stressing it was a temporary probation earlier... probations are inherently temporary), that is an event that is inherently notable for a university. Now how everyone else here decides to contextualize the rationale for the probation is one thing, but my point was, the probation itself is a notable event that it warrants inclusion in the article (and I've yet to hear a good reason for the exclusion of the probation itself). The probation prose can easily be reworded to reflect whichever rationale we decide upon. Also, the CNN link you provided up there is turning up as a broken link on my end just fyi. Leventio (talk) 20:42, 15 June 2019 (UTC); edited 20:55, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- BubbaJoe123456 It ABSOLUTELY matters what the FAMU president said if integrity and misinformation matters. And it is misinformation and irresponsible for you or anyone to say he resigned for any reason outside what he publicly stated. The press speculate and give opinions all the time and that's exactly all it is, it's not 100% factual. However, the reputable press outlets got it right and just reported the facts. And again, your argument that he resigned due to the hazing death would be a little stronger if it wasn't for the fact he left ALMOST A YEAR AFTER IT HAPPENED. FIND AN ARTICLE WHERE THE FAMU PRESIDENT STATED IN WRITING OR SPEECH HE RESIGNED DUE TO HAZING??! The problem is you all can't tell the difference between speculation and opinions versus factual information. First the argument was the university was placed on accreditation probation due to hazing which hasn't been irrefutable proven, now the argument is he resigned due to hazing which hasn't been irrefutably proven either. And in reference to ElKevbo, you repeating a lot of what I said. And it sounds like you love to argue just to argue because it doesn't seem like you're reading and trying to understand what I'm saying ... why you feel the need to reword my words? And for the 100th time ElKevbo was saying the hazing death was an official citation for the academic probation, which is not true and poor understanding of the matter ... it simply led to a closer look into the band where citable fiscal wrongdoings were eventually uncovered by the accreditation agency. AGAIN, they can't take away a school's accreditation due to a secret fraternity hazing ritual that has never been sanctioned by the university but they can take it away for gross financial mismanagement which some in the band were found guilty of.Broadmoor (talk) 12:39, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Couple of things. First: "if the president didn't publicly state he resigned due to hazing you can't say he resigned due to hazing" What matters is what RSes say, not what he said. If a CEO says he's resigning "for personal reasons," but RS press reports state that he's resigning because the company's performance has nosedived, it's entirely appropriate to say that in an article. In this case, multiple RSes state that his resignation was due to the hazing death, so it's appropriate to say that. Second: The article ElKevbo cited says "The hazing scandal played a role in Florida A&M's accrediting troubles, said Belle S. Wheelan, president of the Southern accreditor, but so did financial woes and concerns about the integrity of Florida A&M's administrative processes." So, that's the head of the accreditor saying that the hazing scandal played a role. In another article, it states "[Champion's] death also sparked state investigations, one which delved deep into the finances of Florida A&M University’s Marching 100 band. That investigation uncovered more than 100 non-students who were allowed to participate and travel with the band on the schools dime." So, it's clear at least that (a) the hazing death contributed to FAMU being put on probation, and (b) the investigation into the hazing death led to the discovery of other issues that were also causes of the probation. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 20:56, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- ElKevbo where did I deny the hazing death played a role in the inquiry of the accreditation agency?? AGAIN, I SAID THE HAZING INCIDENT WAS NEVER AN OFFICIAL CITATION BY THE ACCREDITATION AGENCY! The accreditation agency looked deeper into the operations of the band as a result of the hazing death and found misuse of student funds by the leaders of the band which was the official citation in the probation notice. This isn't rocket science. You're going in circles and nothing you sharing explicitly states hazing was the reason for the probation ... playing a role and being the reason are two very different things. It seems like you're blinded by what you want to see instead of the truth right in front of you which brings me back to the integrity issues of your editing practices. Broadmoor (talk) 20:19, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- The president of the accrediting body specifically said that "[t]he hazing scandal played a role in Florida A&M's accrediting troubles." ElKevbo (talk) 14:36, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Graduation Rate
Broadmoor has tried to remove the information on the school's graduation rate on several occasions. Thought I've asked them to start a talk page discussion, they haven't, so I've started it. I don't see why this sourced information should be removed from the article. Broadmoor stated that the information isn't included for other Florida schools, which may well be true (it wasn't included for a few I checked, like FSU and UF). Even assuming it is, though, that's not sufficient reason to remove it (per WP:OTHERCONTENT), as it's both relevant and sourced. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 18:09, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
National Achievement Scholars
If the article is going to talk about the years in which FAMU was very successful in recruiting National Achievement Scholars, then it's only appropriate that the article also state that the success declined sharply, as clearly documented in one of the citations for the section on NAS recruitment. Broadmoor, why do you believe that only discussing the era when FAMU was successful in recruiting NAS, but not the later decline, is compliant with presenting a balanced article? Also pinging ElKevbo. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 22:16, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for opening this discussion. I agree with your rationale and the current description in the article (or some form of it; I'm not tied to those specific words) that accurately summarizes the cited sources. Broadmoor has been blocked from editing this article for persistent edit-warring and article ownership but I would welcome discussion and proposals/suggestions from him or her. ElKevbo (talk) 03:27, 17 December 2021 (UTC)