Talk:Electronic body music/Archive 1

New School / Old School

in europe (mainly germany) a new school doesn't exist. there it's called "elektro" 1 or "electro-industrial" 2

EBM has no distorted vocals. mostly echo/delay effects and clean shouts or grunts.

In Sweden electro is what we call bands like Ladytron --Dalen 20:20, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ladytron is Electroclash. But Stuff like Funker Vogt, Hocico, Amduscia, Aslan Faction, Feindflug or E-Craft is called Elektro. Harsh Techno-Bassdrum & Hooklines (typical Techno sounds) and distorted vocals - that's untypical for EBM.

EBM = clear structures & clean shouts & old sequencer lines.

The Neon Judgement is a new wave project with guitars ect., not really EBM. The first EBM-compilation This Is Electronic Body Music was a mistake created by german labelchef Manfred Schuetz in 1988 (SPV/Animalized in cooperation with PIAS).

• "Es war 1986. Es ging darum, all die belgischen Electro-Bands zu pushen. Meine Idee war schließlich, einen Sampler zu machen, für wenig Geld, mit viel Musik und mit fettem Booklet, für jede Band eine Seite. Was noch fehlte, war ein Name für den Sampler..." (Manfred Schuetz, 2004)

Hmmm, from the Press Release of Outbox (on their [homepage]) "Although these Belgian Leuven-based musicians have often been considered the founding fathers of EBM (Electronic Body Music), the high-tech genre form the early 80'ies, combining industrial and electro music, from which later originated new beat and techno..." Donnacha 12:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

That sentence is grammatically wrong. Maybe it originally ended in "but in reality this is not true"? A link from the Front 242 article is much clearer on the subject[[1]]. --JeR 09:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

This Is Electronic Body Music is a medley with belgian projects of all kinds of new wave music or new beat - nothing more.
The same shit like World Of Electronic Body Music...

Ionic Vision

I would argue that Ionic Vision is a old-school ebm band. They are after all inspired by and very similar to early Pouppée Fabrikk. And that's old-school. They sound more similar to DAF songs like Verschwende deine Jugend than new school bands like suicide commando. --Dalen 20:20, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Derivatives of EBM

how about a brief mention of derivatives of ebm, such as aggrotech/terror ebm and techno body music? --MilkMiruku 11:22, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

techno body music is a stupid term created by a stupid guy (Andy LaPlegua). that's not really a musicstyle. and what the devil is "aggrotech/terror ebm/hellektro"? new terms invented for the english wikipedia? google found 442 sites, and mostly the mirrors of the aggrotech article. ;-)

Ha, ha...well, tell that to Metropolis. [2]As for aggrotech, all those bands in the article sound similar to each other, yet different from the bands in the EBM article. I don't know what other classification for a musical genre you need. Bennie Noakes 18:25, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

So why are You calling Andy a "stupid guy"? He used the term TBM talking about Combichrist, and i definitely agree that he created a new... not whole genre, but maybe a subgenre of elektro music. Combichrist sounds different from other bands in the genre. And maybe years ago some guy like You called Kraftwerk "stupid guys", because they used the term EBM... Think about it. Miszter_eromu 22:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Electro-industrial or techno-industrial

These terms were used roughly synonymously with EBM since the mid-80s at least; the previous article text was inaccurate in applying electro-industrial to later EBM.

And, I agree it is a hopeless cause to try to cover every thin slice of purported genre distinction - most of them are fleeting and localized and either overlap indistinguishably with a genre term that's already out there or are so narrow they only apply to a handful of groups. Especially with industrial more than any other artistic endeavor, the whole point is to constantly overthrow the old and experiment with the genuinely new. The whole idea of genre pigeonholes is the precise antithesis to industrial. --Reaverdrop 05:49, October 10, 2005

Do you have any sources on the term 'electro-industrial' being used in the 80's? --Sanctum 01:42, December 3, 2005

Maybe it's from the ishkur's guide of electronic music... a really useless guide, full of mistakes. ;-) --87.122.29.150 14:34, January 2, 2006

• FYI, 87.122.29.150 is a sockpuppet of User:Breathtaker--Dr who1975 (talk) 01:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

i'd be interested to see references also. the source i based the previous version on was industrial.org's faq (which, although obscure fan driven genre names arn't my seciality, generally seems to be spot on for all the other info it provides) plus the input from the german wikipedia (see right at the top of this talk page). --MilkMiruku 19:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

i'm changing back some of the info on the page from this edit through the fact that there are references (the faq, the german wikipedia article and also Ishkur's Guide) that point towards the older info being most acurite --MilkMiruku 13:39, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

You should forget the fucking Animalized/Pias compilations and use your sense of hearing. Manfred Schütz, label-chef from SPV/Animalized had released the compilation "this is electronic body music" in cooperation with Pias. He used the term ebm and selected any band from belgium for his fucking compilation. He didn't divide between New wave, synth pop or New Beat... he titled any belgian band with front 242's term "electronic body music". But they're not really EBM. Bands like The Neon Judgement are definitely no EBM...

references for electro-industrial?

After talking with Menorrhea here I thought it's probably time to clean up the confusion between EBM and electro-industrial, so does anyone have links to any references, articles, etc regarding the latter style so we could possibly look at seperating it to another page as it should be? --MilkMiruku 14:26, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I bought an issue of Keyboard magazine in 1989 whose cover story described many of these bands as "cyberpunk". I googled the words Keyboard magazine cyberpunk and came up with this as as the first hit: http://project.cyberpunk.ru/idb/mainstreaming_cyberpunk.html

There, a book is quoted that uses the term electro-industrial. Anyway, I was a fan of Front 242 but somehow missed hearing the term EBM at that time. I considered them to be electronic/industrial, or broadly second-wave industrial. Nicknicknickandnick 03:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, this is what I associate with EBM: Assemblage 23, Solitary Experiments, VNV Nation, system syn, Temple of Tears with others. Personally, I call the other genre for EBM/Industrial, not to be confused with Dark Elektro (snow in china) - dark electronic music.

EBM (electronic body music, also commonly known as "industrial dance")

The term EBM was coined by Belgian act Front 242 in the eighties; it denotes a certain type of danceable "electronic music". EBM beats are typically 4/4, often with some minor syncopation to suggest a rock rhythm. Heavy synths are usually prominent, and the vocals are often militaristic. This style was widely considered to be the defining sound of "industrial" in the 80s. In recent years, however, there has been somewhat of a schism within the EBM scene, and it is now not uncommon to hear futurepop and synthpop artists referred to as EBM artists. For this reason, many EBM fans have begun to refer to this earlier style as old-school EBM.

Electro Industrial

Electro Industrial (now often called elektro, not to be confused with "electro") is largely a catch-all category that fills the space between powernoise, EBM, old-style industrial and gothic music. The main forerunner for these acts is the legendary eighties Canadian band Skinny Puppy, who used a variety of experimental production techniques to great success. Whereas "EBM" was generally straightforward in structure and production, elektro became known for its deep, layered sound.

Typically this is a darker form of EBM. However, this can often refer to acts that combine EBM with another subgenre (for example Feindflug, who combine EBM with powernoise).

Within North America, this style was widely considered to be the defining sound of industrial in the mid to late 1990s.

Aggrotech

Aggrotech is an evolution of EBM and electro that first surfaced in the mid-1990s, but has been revitalized in recent years. Also refered to as terror EBM or TortureTech, its sound is typified by somewhat harsh song structures, aggressive beats and lyrics of a militant, pessimistic or explicit nature. Typically, the vocals are distorted to sound hoarse, harsh and without tone. Artists also frequently use atonal melodic structures. --Shandris 10:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Citing sources and selecting bands

This article needs some major cleanup. There isn't a single cited source in the whole article, making it subject to deletion per WP:NOR. Second, we need to come up with some standards by which bands get included in the article.

Having a Wikipedia article about a band is really the absolute minimum to have the band included in the "Notable EBM Artists" section. But we should be a good deal more selective than that. F242, Skinny Puppy, VNV Nation, and Wumpscut are obviously notable, while Pouppée Fabrikk and Orange Sector are obviously not. Yet the latter have Wikipedia articles about them. So perhaps there needs to be some sort of standard of historical importance which bands have to meet. Should we use the number of records sold? Frequency of appearance on the DUC, or what?

A similar issue of what gets included is also particularly glaring for the section of the article that talks about new bands. There the criteria of having a Wikipedia page for the band may be debatable. Yet surely we don't want this to become a list of every new EBM band in existence, or for just anyone to come and put their favorite band on the list (which seems to be happening a lot). But how could we prune the list to just significant or important new bands while adhering to WP:NPOV? Thoughts? -- noosphere 19:51, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with you, noosphere, and I'd like to create a template where people may add their suggestions for EBM bands, and they must automatically be a bit well-known (at least two albums released), and supposedly topical (of current interest). I've never heard of Pouppée Fabrikk nor Orange Sector, guess they have to go. Template here, let's contribute --> List of EBM artists --Shandris 08:12, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I like your idea of having a seperate list of EBM bands. I'll definitely contribute to it. I have some concerns about the criteria for including bands on that page also, but I'll voice them on the talk page there. -- noosphere 19:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Adding cleanup tag --Shandris 13:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

band notability is an issue that has been noted at WikiProject Music genres, but i think that the ebm article gets off lightly compared to the complete mess that is on Electroclash [3] right now. i have heard of orange sector [4] before and they have released on Zoth Ommog Records in the early/mid 1990s so i'd say they were notable. i don't know of Pouppée Fabrikk [5] but have released stuff on relevant label Energy Rekords, mainly from to the late 1980s to mid 1990s so they're probably notable too. shame their articles suck though :/ --MilkMiruku 18:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's notability criteria for having their own article, and then there's notability criteria for being in this article. I don't think the two should be the same, unless we want this article to become just a giant list of every EBM band with a Wikipedia article about them. We want influential, well-known bands, not just any band who's put out a couple of albums, don't we? Unfortunately, there are no existing Wikipedia policies or guidelines that would help us out on this, as far as I know. Maybe the WikiProject Music genres people have some suggestions. -- noosphere 19:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

unfortunatly those policies need to be developed (something i've been pushing towards recently with that wikiproject), but i don't really mind, as long as there are enough relevant artists/bands mentioned to give readers a good idea of what old and new ebm sounds like --MilkMiruku 20:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I do mind. I feel that as Wikipedia gains prominence more and more people will try to use it as an advertising tool (it's already happening every day, but fortunately EBM is obscure enough not to feel the brunt of that effort, yet). So, there'll be people wanting to place their own band or their friend's band in this article, without having earned any kind of prominence.

I think most of the editors here have a good idea of which bands are prominent enough to make it in to a history of EBM, but I lament the lack of an objective standard, without which we really have no legs to stand on as far as Wikipedia policy goes when someone insists on including or excluding a particular band.

This counts when someone interested in the genre looks to this article for information, and gets told that some obscure band played a prominent role in EBM history or simply gets the wrong idea of what EBM is about. I'd like to keep this article at a high quality level, but am concerned that it will inevitably deteriorate over time if we don't have some way to determine which bands get mentioned. -- noosphere 20:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

non-notable bands like the ones you mention are easy to weed out, but i was talking more about was bands like orange sector which you brought up as an example. if you google for "old school ebm", the first result you get is a tread on the prominent industrial culture forum on side-line.com which mentions the band a few times. checking now, they also get 26k results for searches such as "orange sector" ebm industrial. my point being that while they are reputable, they're not massive. bands like f242, fla, wumpscut, vnv, covenant, funker vogt, vac, etc are massive in the scene, so do you draw the line at reputable or massive?

Well, I think the ideal criteria would be historical significance. How prominent and influential was the band in question. This is difficult to judge objectively beyond sales figures (perhaps adjusted as a percentage of all EBM albums sold at the time), chart ratings, and maybe playlists at clubs and radio stations. I suppose someone could do a study where there could be a questionnaire sent out to current EBM bands which asked them to rate other bands in terms of influence, but to my knowledge nothing like this has ever been tried. Nor are there any kind of compilations of club/radio-station paylists anywhere, to my knowledge. -- noosphere 21:48, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

If historical significance should be the criteria Pouppée Fabrikk should at least make the list. I could easily name 20+ bands that have said they're primarily influenced by the sound of Pouppée Fabrikk. They're definitely significant in the old-school EBM genre. --213.89.55.59 00:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

of course, the thing about ebm, as i've mentioned already, is that there's older and newer ebm, and while orange sector may not be big in ebm these days, they're probably worth a mention in any section about the older stuff. the impression that i get from talking to people interested in alternative electronic is that there so many younger people in the scene now that a lot of the older music is overlooked in favour of genre pushing stuff (well, that and futurepop, some might say ;) with more modern production techniques, etc. --MilkMiruku 20:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's sad that all this history is being lost. The people that have this information are the DJs who played at that time, the band members themselves, and a handful of diehard fans who were around at the time, with maybe an underground zine or two thrown in for good measure. They're really the ones qualified to determine which of the older bands were really significant. But how do you get what they know in to a Wikipedia article while meeting NPOV and verifiability criteria? I have no idea. The best would be if there were some authoritative texts on this genre, but there aren't, to my knowledge. -- noosphere 21:53, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

while i agree that the 'point of notability where a band worthy of includsion in the artists section on a genre page' needs to be sorted out, releasing multiple albums on a notable industrial scene record label and

my main concern atm is the splid between 'ebm' as a reference to the original front 242 era sound and the newer 'ebm is an umbrella term including older stuff, electro-industrial, futurepop and everything inbetween' usage and the confusion it causes. although i'd say both uses are valid, i feel it would probaby be best to have seperate "Artists (early EBM)" and "Artists (later EBM)" sections just to avoid confusion. thoughts? --MilkMiruku 18:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, or maybe "Classic EBM" vs "New EBM"... but which band goes in which category is going to be a pretty subjective decision... especially as some bands have done both. Again, this is something Wikipedia policies don't address. So perhaps a simple chronological arrangement might be most objective and uncontroversial. -- noosphere 19:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

check the eol audio articles on ebm/old skool ebm; it has some good points on this. --MilkMiruku 20:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I think those articles perfectly illustrate just the kind of subjectivity I'm worried about. I don't want a huge thread about this or a flamewar, but I take objection to the characterization of Das Ich and In Strict Confidence are "goth friendly version of EBM". Neither one is particularly gothy. What evidence do I have? Well, my own experience. Really no different than what I presume was the reasoning used by the author of that article. This kind of thing is just far too subjective for Wikipedia. We really need to cite some authoritative source for our characterizations of music belonging to one genre or another, and as being notable enough to include in this article or not. But the problem is that EBM is just too obscure for there to be any authorities at all. Which is why I'm at a loss as to how anyone could ever object to the inclusion of any given band in to this article, or any characterization or a given band as being representative of a genre. -- noosphere 20:39, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

i agree, it's definitly a pov and unreferenced site, which is why i've never referenced any of the eol pages on wikipedia. i only mentioned it here as it has a list of older ebm bands and a list of general ebm bands. --MilkMiruku 21:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I appreciate that as a source of information on EBM, even if it's not as objective as I'd like.  :) -- noosphere 21:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

What about what I wrote about EBM and Electro Industrial? By the way, I added guidelines in the EBM artist list --Shandris 12:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Italian forum

I don't think anyone needs a link to an Italian speaking forum, it's practically useless, removal preferred. --Shandris 14:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

agreed, removed --MilkMiruku 17:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Endzeit Bunkertracks

I've added the first of a series of compilations, it's unfinished because I've haven't had time, it's just some layout and linking issues left -- Shandris 12:45, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Shall we add a link on the page? --Shandris 09:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Miss unter null

For those who know who unter null is:

Alfa Matrix was informed that Erica Dunham, aka Miss UNTER NULL, was involved in a very bad car accident last Friday. She is now back at home and safe with a head concussion, a chest concussion, and a few broken bones. The impact on the car was so big that it is literally reduced to pieces as you can see on the picture. Her current health condition unfortunately forced her cancelling her scheduled gig in San Francisco. (February 16, 2006)

Sad, unter null is among the best Dark Elektro acts out there, hope she'll be alright --Shandris 16:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Yeah, I know and love the music Unter Null. I don't know the person behind it, but my feelings and hopes for a speedy and full recovery are with her. -- noosphere 02:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I think I'll create the unter null article, it's on time... Shandris 17:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Done! I'd like someone to copyedit it for me --> unter null Thanx, --Shandris 20:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Later EBM list

What is the point of this list? Is it to get a sneak peek of List of EBM artists and/or how do you know what is OK to add and what's not? Guideline, here! --Shandris 14:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

more or less yes. the guidelines for adding bands have been discussed above, but as long as a band is definitly ebm and is fairly well known in the scene it should be find. if there are any discgreements we can simply discuss and come to a consensus --MilkMiruku 16:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

We should remove the list of later style EBM artists, because they're Hellektro or Future Pop bands. Hellektro & Future Pop are developments of EBM and electro-industrial with an influence of techno or trance. They're no subgenres of EBM. --87.122.18.205 12:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

• note, 87.122.18.205 is a sockpuppet of User:Breathtaker--Dr who1975 (talk) 01:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Derivatives of EBM

In my opinion Aggrotech and Future pop are derivatives of EBM, not subgenres. EBM is a music style that uses old synth sounds (Korg, Emulator II, Yamaha DX7 etc.). Later so called "EBM" acts use techno sounds (techno/rave hooklines), TR-909 beats or groovebox sounds.

Especially from the perspective of Germany, EBM died in the early 90s, because Front 242 release "Tyranny For You" (a pre-part-Goa-thing) and later "Fuck Up Evil", the last pure EBM album of Front 242 was "Front by Front". Nitzer Ebb change her EBM style, many belgian EBM acts splitted up and swedish or german acts use guitar sounds... The original EBM sound was dead. The rebirth of EBM came later in the years 2001/2002. Today, web magazines and DJs use the term EBM for any electronic newcomer music group... But many of these music groups use trance or techno sounds. That's definitely an adulteration of a music genre...

Userboxes

Look, I've made 2 cool userboxes, feel free to use:

File:EbmLogo.jpg

This user enjoys EBM and Dark Electro.

This user adores unter null.

Shandris^{the azylean} 11:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The newest wave of EBM - Techno Body Music

There has been a serious revival of EBM elements in the dance scene recently, pioneered by artists like Adam X, David Carretta, Thomas P. Heckmann, The Hacker and Terence Fixmer that should be reflected in this article. A number of the former futurepop artists have been moving in this direction as well - particularly Combichrist (who came up with the term Techno Body Music]] and VNV Nation. While some of the inclusions on the compilation [This Is... Techno Body Music Vol. 1] are a little questionable, there is a verifiable move back towards old school EBM. The clearest sign of this is obviously Fixmer / McCarthy, Terence Fixmer's project with Doug McCarthy (Nitzer Ebb), but there's also the string of remixes of Nitzer Ebb and Neon Judgement by some of these acts. Donnacha 12:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Well? No one calls this Techno Body Music. This is a term from the stupid Icon Of Coil/Combichrist asshole, that's all. But we can mention these artists, because they really use DAF sequencer lines. We should create an "EBM elements in the current techno scene" section. Juno Reactor created a song in the year 2000 called "Masters Of The Universe", an ethno/EBM thing. --Menorrhea 22:13, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you really have to follow me around disagreeing with me? Clearly as a label (Masterhit) released a compilation called "This Is... Techno Body Music", slightly more than Combichrist use it. It remains to be seen if it catches on, techno/EBM was a pre-futurepop term that didn't catch on. It's also not really the "current techno scene" either, it's a point of convergence between the techno scene and the EBM scene and its descendents. Combichrist/DJ Scandy are a major part of it, while there's a greater element of techno in the new VNV album. Fixmer/McCarthy are one from each scene and I've seen them headline the Saturday of the Dark City goth/industrial/EBM thingy in Edinburgh (Combichrist headlined Sunday with Psyche second on the bill) as well as supporting T. Raumschmiere (which, btw, attracted far fewer people in London than the Combichrist gig a few months later). Adam X is clear about consciously moving from techno to EBM, while Heckman went as far as releasing a single called EBM. Donnacha 22:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

First draft (to go after the futurepop paragraph):

Around the same time, a similar process was happening in reverse as a number of artists from the European techno scene, such as Terence Fixmer, Thomas P. Heckmann and David Carretta, starting including more elements of EBM in their sound. In the United States, Adam X moved in the same direction. This tendency grew in parallel with the emerging electroclash scene and, as that scene started to decline, a number of artists associated with it, particularly The Hacker, moved towards this techno/EBM crossover style.

There has been increasing convergence between this scene, the futurepop scene and also the old school EBM scene. Bands and artists have remixed each other and, most notably, Terence Fixmer joined with Nitzer Ebb's Douglas McCarthy to form Fixmer/McCarthy. In 2005, Andy LaPlegua, formerly of futurepop band Icon of Coil, but now recording and performing under a number of different names and EBM, industrial and techno styles, coined the term Techno Body Music (TBM) for a Combichrist track. The term was used in the title of a Masterhit Recordings compilation, "This Is... Techno Body Music Vol. 1", that featured bands from across the various scenes declaring "TBM will break down the walls inside the heads of the people by putting the best of two scenes under one common term."[6]

Any comments, criticisms? Donnacha 14:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Notable Artists?

I understand that the artists listed are good examples, but I really do think many of them are not notable. Must we really have an exhaustive list rather than a representative one? Amber388 04:28, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

They're notable.

• Tommi Stumpff and Paranoid were notable EBM artists from Germany
• Force Dimension was the only EBM artist from the Netherlands
• Scapa Flow was the second notable artist from Sweden (besides Pouppée Frabrikk)
• Dupont, Proceed, Spetsnaz and Sturm Café represent the third generation of EBM (after the millennium)

--Breathtaker 21:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

None of your statements establish that they're notable. At best, you've mentioned some artists with marginal regional notability, which is hardly the best selection to make for an article with global scope. In addition, it's standard practice in Wikipedia genre articles to only list bands that already have extant Wikipedia articles on them---if a band is "notable", it should be notable enough for its own Wikipedia article first, before it's notable enough to be included in the main genre article. --Delirium 08:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. If you wish to maintain an extensive list with red links, then perhaps you might consider creating List of electronic body music artists. This kind of list can contain redlinks as long as they're verifiable (see list of dubstep artists for an example). Having lists of redlinks in a genre article is useless and a vanity-magnet; it encourages amateur producers who think it's cool to be on Wikipedia to add themselves to it, and sometimes no one notices cos they're amongst a load of redlinks. On a separate, longer list of artists with references, this is easier to maintain. If any of those redlinks are notable enough to mention in the article prose with some sort of mention of why they're notable (seeing as they don't have articles, this is necessary) then by all means do so. - Zeibura ^(Talk) 12:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

For a handfull of artists we don't need a list. EBM was only a small music style. These artists are the most important artists of the genre. --Breathtaker 00:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of the confusingly named list of electronic and industrial music artists when I wrote that comment, so I understand your point. Okay, as most of the redlinked artists are mentioned in the rest of the article, I went looking for sources which talk about them as EBM artists, and was successful for most (but with varying degrees of reliability). However the sources do establish notability, perhaps such that at least a stub could be written for each group. The only two I couldn't find a single article about were DRP and Inside Treatment, and neither of these are mentioned anywhere in this article, so I have removed them as they do not actually appear to be notable, let alone that not being established. If you can establish that they are then add them back in. - Zeibura ^(Talk) 21:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Um hopefully on topic here, but Oomph is listed but then it only says "first album". I just think it's a waste of space to have them on there just to have them listed only for their first album. Also another major facter is that now their more connected to NDH then EBM. I am suggesting removal from the list of notable EBM artist. Tazz 00:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

currently takes a somewhat prescriptive tone

The article as it stands is a decent (if short) summary of the 1980s EBM movement. It's rather prescriptive in refusing to document the often contradictory evolution of the term "EBM" since then, though. Some people use it to refer basically only to 1980s EBM, others would include some later developments like early Suicide Commando or Leaether Strip, and still others use it to describe basically early-90s futurepop (before that term was coined). Basically, a quick scan through music magazines and label press releases finds quite a few uses of "EBM" that this article doesn't consider EBM, which makes it somewhat non-neutral, since we're supposed to be a descriptive rather than prescriptive encyclopedia. Earlier versions of this article did document that, making it seem like some "purist" with a chip on their shoulder (User:Breathtaker, it looks like) has taken an axe to this article, hence the NPOV tag.

See punk rock for a somewhat better (if still imperfect) article about a genre with similar arguments over when (if ever) the genre ended, and which later developments should or shouldn't be counted as "punk rock". Basically we should cover all major viewpoints, with citations if possible. --Delirium 21:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the aggrotech section, because it's a genre on the foundations of dark electro and electro-industrial. Aggrotech/Hellektro isn't an outgrowth of EBM. Btw: In the early 90s, there was no Futurepop. Futurepop is the mixture of Electropop and Techno Trance. It's a genre from the late 90s. And in the late 90s, EBM was a dead genre. Futurepop cannot be an outgrowth of EBM. Music magazines, especially webzines, are not reliable sources. --Breathtaker 00:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree that aggrotech is more a subgenre of dark electro, but IMO this article should still mention that and that many people (wrongly) use the term EBM (or sometimes Harsh EBM/Terror EBM) for that kind of music. --Dalen 21:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Btw: Besides the music, there is also a sociolgical problem, because there is an active EBM scene in Germany which has nothing to do with that Combichrist/Agonoize Elektro scene. Both are different subcultures with different attributes and attitudes. The German EBM scene tends more toward the Hardcore Punk and Skinhead culture (clothes, attitude....). The Elektro subculture tends more toward the Techno subculture (on the foundation of Futurepop, Hellektro and other techno-inspired genres). --Breathtaker 01:30, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

PS: And musically, EBM shows more likeness to genres such as the Belgian New Beat than to genres such as Hellektro. In my opinion, it's the same evolution such as Hard rock and Heavy metal:

Hard Rock -> Heavy Metal
             - Speed Metal
             - Thrash Metal
             - Death Metal

EBM ->       "Elektro"
             - Dark Electro
             - Electro-Industrial
             - Aggrotech/Hellektro

I'm not interested in your opinions and amateur musicology, but sources. You don't like published sources that use "EBM" in a way you dislike. Do you have published sources that use it in a way you find better? --Delirium 07:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

EBM is a completely unpopular genre. Do you really think that we can find any reliable source? There is no book or scientific treatise. We only know it's a genre of post-industrial in connection with electronic punk music (staccato beats, repetitive sequencer lines etc.) You have two possibilities which are both detrimental for the article: 1.) delete the article, because you'll never find scientific sources. 2.) add every online source and opinions of the kids of today and the article loses credibility and a clear definition. Both possibilities comprise the same final result: you can delete the article.

We should use our brain and we should describe the genre in its original form. Nitzer Ebb, Front 242, Die Krupps, DAF and related groups produced a completely other kind of music than Agonoize, Hocico or Neikka RPM - that's absolutely evident. Moreover, there are different terms, such as electro-industrial, dark electro and some others, which should be used in connection to the last-mentioned music groups. They're not really typical for EBM. --Breathtaker 00:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

If that's true, then this article should be deleted. Wikipedia can only have articles on which reliable sources exist. However there are sources---just not ones that say exactly what you prefer. "EBM" is a term with multiple usages, split between "purists" who stick to the original definition, and "expansionists" who apply it to later outgrowths. The music industry mainly is expansionist, while people editing Wikipedia appear to mainly be purist, but an NPOV article needs to mention both usages, and that there's a controversy over the term. --Delirium (talk) 12:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Well HERE'S a plan - why don't we state that area of discussion in the article - and point to this talk page as evidence of how the exact meaning of the term is disputed! Too many people call 'futurepop' and 'aggrotech' bands EBM, or at least a subgenre of it (just google one of the terms alongside 'EBM' and you'll get all the evidence you need). I think the association needs to be mentioned here, even if it's just as a derivative.Jonnyeol (talk) 08:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Nope, you can't do that either... that would be using Wikipedia to source itself, and equivalent to citing an Internet forum. EBM clearly is used to mean multiple things in, for instance, the musical press, and that must be reflected in the article. The purists don't get a look in without sources, on this article or any other. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 08:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 23:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Comparing EBM scene to the... Black Metal scene.

Here we go. EBM is dead - many of You will speak. And i don't understand WHY. Looking at the Black Metal scene - once upon the time came Cronos with his band Venom, and they created the basis for the Black Metal genre. Venom is enough for this example. Then came the Man - Quorthon, with the band Bathory. They took black metal, made it more dark and extreme. And NOBODY said "Black Metal is dead" because of what Bathory did. Nowadays compare Venom to... for example - Carpathian Forest. Believe or not - BOTH these bands are black metal. Venom is just "old school". So why do we have such a war here? Just because You can't accept the fact that EBM music is alive, but in other form than Front 242/Nitzer Ebb? Miszter eromu (talk) 22:25, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

(1st Wave) - DAF / Die Krupps        -> Bathory / Venom
(2nd Wave) - Nitzer Ebb / Front 242  -> Mayhem / Darkthrone

Can you follow me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.32.85 (talk) 00:59, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

• note, 87.122.32.85 is a sockpuppet of User:Breathtaker--Dr who1975 (talk) 01:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

EBM really dead?

So how do you recognize the oldschool version? Is Hex Rx considered being EBM second generation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.233.247.10 (talk) 20:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Aggrotech

Where is the aggrotech page?!?!?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.252.80.81 (talk) 19:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

It got moved a long time ago into an article about Post-Industrial developments which is found here. Although, who knows how long that article will stay up since it is in the shape it is. Xe7al (talk) 21:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

NDW, DJ Hell, electropunk

hi, I think something should be added to this page specifying EBM's roots in the Neue Deutsche Welle, rather than merely "electropunk" (a nearly meaningless term). Two of the influences listed are NDW groups. Similarly, I've always been unhappy with the "straight ahead electronic music" designation for Kraftwerk. There's no such thing as "straight ahead electronic music". Kraftwerk should be identified as synthpop, or, given their unique significance, just named, without a genre. Also, I think DJ Hell should be mentioned in the context of the Hacker and the post-electroclash EBM revival. Aryder779 (talk) 17:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

NDW isn't a music genre. It's only the German version of the british/american New Wave movement. --WaddleDuck (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:30, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

If that's true, than EBM's roots should be specified as "new wave", rather than electropunk. Liaisons dangereuses and DAF are definitely NDW. The thing is, though, the NDW bands are notably distinct in sound from Anglo-American new wave. Aryder779 (talk) 20:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. NDW is not a style. DAF are Electropunk. --Ada Kataki (talk) 16:04, 5 August 2008 (UTC)