Talk:Dry glue

Not Hoax

I thought that too - but then I checked Van der Waals force, which contains a section on geckos, dry glue and a couple of references. Apparently, geckos are held to the wall by Van der Waals force, and Stamford has attempted a synthetic version. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:33, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to pull the content out from Van der Waals force, because dry glue seems to involve more than just that force, and it would be better in its own article. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:35, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

-The physicists from Manchester University (UK) who were recently awarded Nobel prizes for graphene-related work apparently created some kind of Gecko-tape prior to that - there's a photo on one of their personal pages on the uni website 86.138.75.9 (talk) 18:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

DARPA Source

The text under the current DARPA heading is unreferenced. It was taken from the Van der Waals force page on 8 November 2009, probably added in this 2008 revision to the VdWf page, and subsequently edited. None of these edits ever had a cite as far as I could tell, so I looked it up. DARPA's own brief on the Z-Man project certainly confirms the project, but I have a couple of problems adding this cite to the text as-is:

• The DARPA page certainly talks about VdWf and gecko research, but never uses the term "dry glue". In my opinion it would be original research to deduce that DARPA must be researching dry glue, and not some other application of similar technologies and principles.
• Nowhere could I find any mention of the project's goal for a soldier to "scale a wall at .5 m/s", or any specific velocity. They do say, "The overall goal is to enable a soldier to scale a vertical surface while carrying a full combat load using Z-Man technologies," which reads quite different.

If anyone is aware of sources that better address these issues, please go ahead and add them. For now I've just marked it as unreferenced, as I don't really know how best to improve it. RThompson (talk) 11:28, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Merge?

Wouldn't this page be better merged to gecko tape? Pretty much everything involves the "glue" being attached to a patch, which makes it tape, not glue. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 15:20, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The First Sentence.

Rob,

The reason it still sounds like it needs commas is because you are not fixing the "of the feet of geckos" awkwardness, nor are you removing the unnecessary AND confusingly ambiguous them pronoun.

("gecko feet" means roughly the same thing as "of the feet of geckos")

(adaptations of the feet of geckos, that allow them - does them refer to the adaptations of the feet, or to just geckos, or to even just geckos feet but not the gecko? Who knows? Who knows..)

Restructuring the sentence fixes all these issues.

The sentence currently reads

• Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the naturally occurring adaptations of the feet of geckos, that allow them to climb sheer surfaces, and even glass walls.

The following suggestions are, IMHO, the two best ways to construct the sentence.

(If I understand your complaint correctly then you will prefer the first sentence.)

• Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the naturally occurring adaptations that allow gecko feet to climb sheer surfaces and even glass walls.

the one I prefer (and you object to because of "foot adaptations") is

• Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the naturally occurring foot adaptations that allow geckos to climb sheer surfaces and even glass walls.

I personally think keeping the words foot and adaptation next to each other is a better idea, because the adhesive is specifically developed from the foot adaptations and not general gecko adaptations, such as a knee adaptation that assists in climbing. Also, the entire gecko climbs the wall, not just their feet, as implied in the first suggestion. So my last sentence should be the better of the two. I still stand that my original edit you reverted is the best possible revision, and furthermore think a discussion of foot adaptations should have a link to an article about the evolution of feet. I am going to put my change back in the document one time. I will not start an edit war with you. If you still disagree with me, revert it back to your way. If you don't like the link to feet remove it.

Cordially

-- Xkcdreader (talk) 16:57, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

It's "foot adaptations" that I have the real issue with. It doesn't really make sense. "Adaptations of the feet" for me is better English. --Rob Sinden (talk) 16:59, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the naturally occurring adaptations of the feet that allow geckos to climb sheer surfaces and even glass walls. ??? - personally more awkward but willing to concede in the spirit of comradery. Do you see how now it is again ambiguous whether it is the adaptation or the feet that allow geckos to climb walls? (It's both, it shouldn't be ambiguous.) Maybe we need a smarter English expert to weigh in. Xkcdreader (talk) 17:03, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• The alternative inbetween is - Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the naturally occurring adaptations of (their?) feet that allow geckos to climb sheer surfaces and even glass walls. ??? - again, I think that is worse than "foot adaptations," which although maybe not ideal due to the strange sentence, is the most clear. If we add the (their) pronoun it removes the ambiguity but I kind of think "adaptations of (their?) feet" is clunkier than "foot adaptations" I think it is slightly confusing to put the pronoun their before the word it refers to, gecko. -- Xkcdreader (talk) 17:08, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• Breakdown: "the naturally occurring adaptations of (their/gecko) feet" is its own noun phrase. It is the noun being acted upon by the verb phrase "based upon." This is literally "trek into" over again. :/ Xkcdreader (talk) 17:12, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

• Furthermore "the naturally occurring adaptations of (their?) feet that allow geckos to climb sheer surfaces and even glass walls." is the ENTIRE noun phrase. The pronoun that adds the restrictive clause to the noun phrase. You can see more here by scrolling down to the second definition of "that" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/that "used as a function word to introduce a restrictive relative clause and to serve as a substitute within that clause for the substantive modified by the clause <the house that Jack built>" Xkcdreader (talk) 17:17, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Too long, too complicated, lots of stuff unnecessary to the topic. I've rewritten to focus on the glue, not the gecko. More importantly Wikipedia coverage of this is a bit scattered -- we have Dry glue, Gecko adhesion, Gecko tape, Synthetic setae, which, as near as I can tell, are all discussing the same thing. We should have one good article and three redirects, not four so-so articles. NE Ent 17:24, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Sidenote about things I'm not suppose to discuss: Maybe the whole ambiguity thing was borderline WP:FANCRUFT, not because I love trek, but because I notice these types of things instantly, and. they. bug. me. Explaining these types of language issues to people is "encyclopedic" in my eyes, it teaches them. Sorry about dragging it out. Xkcdreader (talk) 17:29, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Your rewrite is much better, however, it still should be that and not which http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/which-versus-that.aspx I fixed it. As far as merging goes, it looks like that was discussed a long time ago. Maybe ask Elen about it. Xkcdreader (talk) 17:29, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

On a second reread it still has one of the smaller issues I was talking about. It is probably as good as it is going to get, so I give up.

Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the characteristics of gecko feet that allow them to climb sheer surfaces.... See how gecko feet can't climb glass by themselves for they need to be attached to a gecko? That type of interpretation only happens when you are looking for it, so I think we have reached an accord. Cheers. Xkcdreader (talk) 17:34, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Meaning depends on context, and we don't assume Wikipedia readers are complete literal reading idiots. The antecedent of them are the geckos, not the geckos' feet. After further thought I agree that that is better there, as presumably their are other characteristics of the feet which aren't related to their climbing ability. NE Ent 17:38, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Any reason for eschewing adaptations? --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:22, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree with rob. It makes the sentence ever so slightly easier to read but loses a little bit of meaning in the process. I still prefer rearranging the words to remove the unnecessary of and them.

• Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the characteristics of gecko feet that allow them to climb sheer surfaces such as vertical glass.

vs

• Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the adaptations that allow gecko feet to climb sheer surfaces such as vertical glass.

On second thought, I am just going to put that in the article. It reads better and means the same thing. NE Ent raised another question in my mind. Should it be "gecko feet" , "geckos feet" or "gecko's feet" Do we have anything else to discuss? It's probably as good as it'll get. Xkcdreader (talk) 10:09, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

"...adaptations of the feet that allow geckos to climb..."? Or are we back where we started? --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:12, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

"the adaptations that allow gecko feet" Isn't that a lot better than "adaptations of the feet that allow geckos" Xkcdreader (talk) 10:14, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

It's a minor difference and no biggie, just a slight concern that the syntax implies that the feet are working independently of the gecko! --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:19, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I believe you are being jovial. har har :) Is there any difference between - "gecko feet" , "geckos feet" or "gecko's feet"? If we want to get poetic we could switch to "scale sheer surfaces such as" and throw some alliteration in the mix. Xkcdreader (talk) 10:22, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I know no-one's really going to think that, but it avoids ambiguity. In answer to your question, personally, I think "gecko feet" is correct, but if you use my wording, you also avoid this problem. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:29, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

If you actually meant the feet/gecko thing.... The last option I can suggest is

• 'Dry glue is a method of adhesion based upon the adaptations that allow a gecko's feet to cling to sheer surfaces thereby allowing geckos to scale vertical glass. Xkcdreader (talk) 10:25, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Repetition of "gecko" in the same sentence seems clumsy. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:29, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok, we leave it as is then. Xkcdreader (talk) 10:29, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, slightly clumsy, but not unworkable. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:30, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Maybe a better way to fix it is to replace climb with a synonym of adhere. The important verb should maybe refer to an action of clinging, sticking, (clasp, stick, grip etc) instead of a motion verb like climb. I just can't think of a good word so I haven't changed it. Xkcdreader (talk) 14:23, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I took your suggestion "adaptations of the feet that allow geckos" and turned the article the into the pronoun their. Xkcdreader (talk) 14:28, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

This article is about a type of adhesion method, not the evolutionary process of geckos, so the fact that the characteristics evolved through natural selection isn't important here, and having word -- especially wiklinked -- takes the focus off the glue NE Ent 20:48, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

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