Talk:Dovestone Reservoir

Image

I think this image is a more befitting image to take the lead section here. Ant thoughts? --Jza84 |  Talk  19:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was do not merge into Dovestone Reservoir. -- DarkCrow^Caw 20:40, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

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I propose merging the following articles into Dovestones. Greenfield Reservoir, Yeoman Hey Reservoir, and Chew Reservoir (Greater Manchester), since all three are in a rough alignment (here). There seems little point keeping them separate given their article status. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I think they deserve their own pages because they are very much different areas. It can take you a day to walk around chew valley. it's reservoir is a different body of water to the dovestone reservoir. it may seem little point if you don't know the area. locals do not think of all these reservoirs as the same place. --Humanfeather (talk) 21:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

There are four distinct reservoirs. Dovestones, Yeoman Hey, Chew and Greenfield reservoirs. They should remain as separate pages but should be expanded as possinle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.70.95.135 (talk) 12:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Date of Opening

The main page says the Reservoir was open in 1967? Are you sure? There is enough visual evidence to say it was built during the Victorian era. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.164.218 (talk) 18:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

This was opened in 1967. This is confirmed on the notice boards in the area and local people of that era will confirm and discuss the controvesy in their typical saddleworth/yorkshire whiny way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.70.95.135 (talk) 12:28, 16 November 2016

Neil Dovestone

User:J3Mrs considers the story of "Neil Dovestone" to be "trivia and off topic" and has removed a reference to this incident twice from this article. Personally (along with User:MorbidStories who originally added it to the article) I consider it a notable, newsworthy aspect of the place and worthy of its brief mention. I wouldn't want to see this "popular culture" aspect assume undue prominence in the article, but the current two-line, three-sentence paragraph is adequately referenced to reputable sources, including a long-form article on the BBC News website. Inviting other views. Dave.Dunford (talk) 11:55, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

What does it tell us about the reservoir? Nothing making it off topic. Not everything reported in newspapers is suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. He was found on the Chew track, closer to Chew Reservoir. J3Mrs (talk) 13:20, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

There's something in your last point, though the guy is known as "Neil Dovestone" and is clearly associated – in the public imagination at least – with this site (I note that the BBC describes the location as "Beauty spot, Chew Track from Dovestone Reservoir" and reports that "For a surname, they called him Dovestones, after the reservoir close to where he was found. That is how, for now at least, the man on the moor became Neil Dovestones.") I disagree that this incident isn't "suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia" – it has its own article (which nobody has challenged), it was widely reported in the serious national press, and the subject of an official enquiry. I can't see why you object so much to a short paragraph about an incident that was widely reported and is popularly associated with this site. Saddleworth Moor has plenty about the Moors murders and you could argue just the same – what do the murders tell you about the Moor? What does the Battle of Edgehill tell you about Edge Hill, Warwickshire? These are (to varying degrees, granted) noteworthy events that are associated with certain places, and it surely warrants a couple of sentences: articles about locations aren't solely about geography. I'll hazard a guess that at least some readers of the article came here as a result of the story. Dave.Dunford (talk) 15:04, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

I still think it irrelevant, I have copyedited it. Some events are more noteworthy than others. J3Mrs (talk) 15:16, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Connection with South Pennines?

Hi everyone, I just thought I'd raise this topic because while its been recently edited to say its on the edge of the Peak District National Park bordering the South Pennines, I'm still not entirely sure how the reservoir is connected to the South Pennines. This is because the Peak District and South Pennines are certainly not the same area even though they are both part of the main Pennine range (I'd consider them part of the Southern Pennines or Southern Pennine range at most if we are to include them together) and most sources I have read about the South Pennines state that it covers the area from the Yorkshire Dales (including Nidderdale) and Forest of Bowland in the north, and the Peak District to the south, along with including the West Pennine Moors. As a result, I personally wouldn't consider any place south of Diggle, Marsden and Meltham (the three of which to me form the border between the Peak District and the South Pennines) and south of Oldham and Thongsbridge to be part of the South Pennines as to me, its just as misleading as saying places like Hardwick Hall, Bolsover Castle, Sudbury Hall etc. are in the Peak District.

Not to mention Dovestone Reservoir and Greenfield are places I would consider more Peak District-like in character than South Pennine-like. I noticed this similar issue for Holme Moss and Saddleworth Moor because those articles stated that they are both part of the South Pennines even though they both clearly lie within the Peak District National Park along with the Peak District's Dark Peak area, and so I had to reword them as a result. While the recent change saying it borders the South Pennines is acceptable and I don't intend to change that as it isn't as misleading as it was previously, I would still like to know how Dovestone Reservoir and the surrounding area are connected to the South Pennines, are there sources which state the South Pennines extend further south to the west/east of the Peak District (e.g. into the Stalybridge and Penistone areas west and east respectively)? I'd be very grateful if anyone can answer my query here, thank you. Broman178 (talk) 08:39, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

My reaction is that since the boundaries of neither South Pennines nor Peak District are formally defined, worrying about places that are in the grey area/overlap between the two is rather a futile exercise. Sorry if that sounds dismissive, but (as with previous discussions on the exact extent of the Peak District) I think you're seeking consensus, exactitude and rigour where none exists. Dave.Dunford (talk)

Thanks for the reply Dave.Dunford, however, it wasn't my intention to seek a consensus about this matter and I'm certainly not worrying too much about this matter. I just wanted to know what other editors thought about it and whether there are any sources for it because it seems a bit strange to me that a place in the Peak District is being mentioned as part of the South Pennines and theres certainly no harm in telling me what you think rather than dismissing my question as futile or even attention-seeking (by the way you described my query as seeking consensus, exactitude and rigour when it certainly wasn't my intention for either of those). If someone else asked about the same query, I'd have certainly provided a more helpful answer, but thanks anyway. Broman178 (talk) 10:46, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Sorry if my response sounded rude: you invited comment and I gave it (and I'm certainly not accusing you of attention-seeking: I merely disagree with you). Your concern seems to be that a place cannot be in both the Peak District and the South Pennines, whereas my position is that since both of these areas have vague and undefined boundaries, there is an area – broadly north of the Isle of Skye road, or even the Woodhead Pass, and south of the M62 – which can quite reasonably be considered to fall within both. In other words, I don't see a problem with the statement that Dovestones is "on the edge of the Peak District National Park bordering the South Pennines": that sounds legitimate to me. You're right that the South Pennines and the Peak District aren't the same (the former is broadly north of the letter), but they are contiguous and there is an area of potential overlap (within which Dovestones Reservoir could be considered to fall, in my judgment). Dave.Dunford (talk) 12:58, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the attention seeking remark Dave, I just lost my cool a little bit from your first response because I certainly wasn't seeking any consensus, exactitude or rigour over this (although I perhaps implied it), I was just looking for a helpful answer to my question, usually I try to be calm and polite in most of my responses and I slightly lost some of my cool this time. However, while your first response wasn't entirely helpful, I think you are right in saying that the two areas are contiguous and that the boundaries for both places are vague and undefined. Although, like I've said before the two are definitely not the same as the Peak District is higher in average altitude, more rugged, and mostly rural with the occasional larger settlements and industry while the South Pennines in comparision has lower average altitude, more gentle terrain, and its more urbanised (parts of which include the Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire conurbations) and industrial compared to the Peak District.

I am okay with statements saying it lies between both Peak District and South Pennines or in the area bordering both but since the two are separate, I do consider statements saying it lies in both Peak District and South Pennines quite confusing and misleading, especially for places within the Peak District National Park like Holme Moss and Saddleworth Moor, which is why I raised this topic in the first place. Of course I do think the recent edit J3Mrs made is acceptable as I said in my query that I don't intend to change it because it doesn't confuse or mislead as much as what it said previously. I think like you've said the area between the Woodhead Pass and M62 motorway can be considered part of both Peak District and South Pennines (although I still stand by my perceptions), similarly, places in the South Pennines like Calderdale and Bradforddale are sometimes considered part of the Yorkshire Dales so I can see why the South Pennines area is so ill-defined. Broman178 (talk) 14:05, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

This map published by the park authority shows the boundary runs along rge western side of Dovestone. Kindly stop this nitpicking. J3Mrs (talk) 17:15, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Well that maps just the boundary of the National Park, it doesn't really prove whether the South Pennines run along Dovestone Reservoir but I nevertheless accept your recent edit and will leave it like that. And yes, I'll end this conversation right here as Dave.Dunford has answered my question in his second reply but if I have any future concern, I'll raise it if I need to, I don't see whats nitpicking about this especially as this is just a talk page and this is a concern I also had with Holme Moss and Saddleworth Moor along with this page, if you have a problem with me voicing a concern in a talk page, just ignore it and leave it to editors who are willing to answer my query. Good day to you. Broman178 (talk) 18:00, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

The Peak Park has an official boundary, it runs along one side of the reservoir. What do you think is on the other side of the boundary? There has to be something and it is the South Pennines. For your information, Greenfield, like Marsden, is not in the Peak District and Calderdale and Bradforddale are Yorkshire dales but not in the Yorkshire Dales. Whether you accept my edit or not, defining the Peak District to the last blade of grass is pointless. If you are going to discuss my edits you might do me the courtesy of informing me and if disagree you can be sure I will reply.

I wasn't discussing your edits in the first place and in any case you told me not to return to your talk page last year, I just wanted to know how this was connected to the South Pennines which you and Dave have now answered. However, while I won't make any more changes to this matter, my perceptions still remain the same and while yes, National Park is an official boundary but it doesn't define the full Peak area which of course is ill-defined and like you've said a pointless exercise to try and define, and I respectfully disagree Marsden and Greenfield have no association with Peak District just because they are outside the Park, indeed the former is maybe the last and most northernly place still associated with the Peak District before the South Pennines. And one last point, the South Pennines aren't the only place surrounding the Peak as there are the Greater Manchester, South & West Yorkshire conurbations in the west and east and then the lowland terrain in the south west, south east and extreme south. But anyway, now that you have answered it, I think we should leave this topic here and move on. Broman178 (talk) 19:50, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Sorry to prolong the discussion, but a suggestion occurs to me in the interest of wider compromise: should we perhaps try to avoid geographical areas whose boundaries are subjective and debatable (e.g. "[Greater] Peak District" and "South Pennines") and try to restrict ourselves (particularly in borderline cases) to uncontroversial and well-defined areas, such as "Peak District National Park", or "Southern Pennines National Character Area" (though I have reservations about the somewhat obscure NCAs that I've rehearsed in previous discussions)? On reflection, the current phrasing ("on the very edge of the Peak District National Park bordering the South Pennines") is a rather awkward mixture of the two and does on the face of it imply that the South Pennines has a hard boundary with the Peak District National Park (which isn't a view that I believe any of us subscribe to). Do we need to mention the South Pennines at all? I'm starting to lean towards the view of Broman178 in this particular case, that the original uncontroversial (if broad) "Pennines" was perhaps preferable to the debatable "South Pennines". Perhaps better to be vague (but uncontroversial) rather than specific (and contentious)? I think we can all agree that Dovestones is both within the Peak District National Park and the Pennines – do we really need to take a position on whether it's within (or adjoining) the South Pennines? Dave.Dunford (talk) 23:12, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

And to answer J3Mrs's question "What do you think is on the other side of the boundary?", the only answer I can give in this case is "the part of Greater Manchester that is outside the Peak District National Park". I'd have to disagree with the statement that "there has to be something". The South Pennines and the Peak District National Park don't have a hard dividing line, nor are they even directly comparable, in my opinion: they probably overlap, but since the area called the "South Pennines" is only vaguely defined, it seems a pointless debate (which is where I came in). Dave.Dunford (talk) 23:22, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Dove Stone or Dovestone

Nobody knows how to spell Dove Stone; my husband even thought it was Dovestones. However, the Council give it two words, United Utilities, who own the place, give it two words, and RSPB, who have an interest, give it two words. The overall preference, googling, and considering the authority of each source, does appear to be two words. Please can you correct it to Dove Stone, with Dovestone as a popular alternative? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.93.221.66 (talk) 09:34, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Also, it is not in Greater Manchester, which does not exist. It is in Yorkshire. Please use correct counties. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.93.221.66 (talk) 09:36, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Regardless of if you perceive Dovestone reservoir to be in Yorkshire, it is now officially part of Greater Manchester (which definitely does exist as a metropolitan county) even if the area historically was in Yorkshire. Only the official and current county boundaries should be given prominence here otherwise it will be misleading to people reading the article, although you could mention briefly that the area is historically in the West Riding of Yorkshire. And I'm quite sure the spelling Dovestone is more commonly used throughout the country than Dove Stone. Broman178 (talk) 20:11, 21 August 2019 (UTC)