Talk:Doctor (title)/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Medical Doctorates in Germany vs the UK

As I understand it, it takes roughly six years of post-secondary study to complete a medical education in the UK. Those 6 years are divided into 3 years of pre-clinical course (normally leading to a first bachelor's degree, like a BA in Cambridge or Oxford) and 3 years of clinical course (leading to the simultaneous awarding of the MB and BChir degrees). If the student so wishes, he/she may intercalate 3 additional years of supervised research with the clinical course, allowing him/her, after submission of an original research thesis and approval in a oral exam, to graduate, after 9 years of study with both a MB/Bchir degree and a PhD degree. In any case though, a research doctorate in medicine, even when pursued in parallel to clinical training, cannot be completed in less than 3 years, which is the standard minimum time of study required for research doctorates in any subject in the UK.

It appears that, in Germany, medical education has a similar structure, i.e. 2 years of pre-clinical course plus 4 years of clinical course, with two required multi-stage State Exams taken over the 6 years. Like in the UK, a medical student in Germany can also complete an individual research project and submit a research thesis to earn a Dr. med. degree in addition to his/her State professional qualification as a physician (Arzt). Contrary to what happens in the UK though, it appears to be usually possible for a Dr.med. degree to be awarded in Germany in a very short period of time, let's say, within one year of the end of the undergraduate medical course, provided that the candidate completes most of his research project still as an undergrad. Should we conclude then that a Dr.med. degree in Germany is inferior, in terms for example of originality and significance of contribution to existing knowledge, than an English PhD or indeed other regular German doctorates (e.g. Dr-Ing., Dr.rer.nat., etc.), which take normally 3 or 4 years to complete beyond a first Diplom ? 161.24.19.82 20:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Answer: Yes. Though the german "Dr.med" suggests some kind of doctoral degree, it is merely a masters degree taking only one semster of research or data evaluation to complete. Some german medical students continue their education after the the "Dr med" to obtain a PhD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.39.191.196 (talk) 09:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The correct answer should be: "Sometimes" or maybe "often". The German "Dr. med." can be achieved in quite a short time, but it can also be a title awarded for a scientific work comparable to a PhD thesis. There is no way in Germany to achieve something like a PhD in medicine, these scientific theses leed to a "Dr. med." as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.114.207.5 (talk) 17:18, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Doctor (title)

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Doctor (title)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "postbus":

• From Academic degree: Welke titel mag ik voeren als ik gepromoveerd ben? Postbus 51.
• From Doctorate: What title may I use after obtaining a doctorate? Postbus 51.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 13:51, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Appeal to Authority

When PhD holders demand to be addressed as \"doctor\", it's like saying: my views, thoughts and opinions are inherently better than yours due to my higher level of education, and you must acknowledge that every time you speak to me. Well, they aren't, and we shouldn't be calling these people doctors. It's a classic appeal to authority argument and we should not accept it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.161.242.212 (talk) 06:04, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. It's a sign of a difficult achievement. Achieving a Ph.D is pretty much equivalent in difficulty to getting an M.D., but one does not give you domain knowledge in the other. If you want to use \"Dr.\" in your title with a Ph.D, you're entitled, but if you use the fact that M.Ds. are more common to actively present yourself as a medical doctor, that's deceitful. But you also shouldn't be afraid to use the title just because someone "may" think you're a medical doctor. 50.140.140.160 (talk) 02:35, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Of course the views, thoughts and opinions of highly educated people are inherently better than other people's. 184.161.242.212 is obviously just jealous. (119.18.2.177 (talk) 03:46, 23 August 2020 (UTC))

The automatic Juris doctor title is much older , more ancient than the physician dr title.

In most European countries the lawyers have the dr title. This article is simply laughable.--Dwirm (talk) 20:50, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Juris Doctor is a US professional doctorate dating from the early 20th century. If you have any evidence for your assertion regarding the use of the title by lawyers in Europe, please present it. Robminchin (talk) 03:21, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

In Europe lawyers are doctors since the medieval era.--Dwirm (talk) 10:03, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

You stating the same thing again is not the same thing as providing evidence. Evidence would be providing reliable sources that support your assertion. ~ GB fan 10:27, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Unlike me You do not have any proofs.

Juris doctors have doctor title since the very beginnings in Bologna. No pyhsicians had any doctor degree that time: Learn and read, educate yourself: https://books.google.com/books?id=kaL0BwAAQBAJ&pg=PA619&dq=%22juris+doctor%22+medieval+bologna&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiquI-X9a7fAhUL26QKHV7hDBUQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=%22juris%20doctor%22%20medieval%20bologna&f=false another book: https://books.google.com/books?id=zJuN1J4E_NoC&pg=PA88&dq=%22juris+doctor%22+medieval+bologna&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiquI-X9a7fAhUL26QKHV7hDBUQ6AEIQzAE#v=onepage&q=%22juris%20doctor%22%20medieval%20bologna&f=false --Dwirm (talk) 17:21, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

That's not the Juris Doctor, which is a 20th century invention, it's Legum Doctor. It is an academic doctorate and thus covered by the general rule that all academic doctors use the title Doctor – nobody is disputing that lawyers with an academic doctorate can use the title Doctor, but this does not apply to lawyers generally, only those with doctorates. The reason physicians are singled out among the professions is that physicians who do not have doctorates still use the title Doctor in many places as a professional title. This does not appear to be the case for lawyers. Robminchin (talk) 06:03, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Than I suggest to learn more: https://books.google.com/books?id=SPgnDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA23&dq=%22juris+doctor%22+medieval&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj15_6VwLHfAhUKbVAKHZm4B_wQ6AEITzAF#v=onepage&q=%22juris%20doctor%22%20medieval&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=YoZbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA168-IA3&dq=%22juris+doctor%22+medieval&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj15_6VwLHfAhUKbVAKHZm4B_wQ6AEIZzAI#v=onepage&q=%22juris%20doctor%22%20medieval&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=i6EIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA321&dq=%22juris+doctor%22+medieval&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjB-a-cwbHfAhUCL1AKHV1WBwI4ChDoAQgnMAA#v=onepage&q=%22juris%20doctor%22%20medieval&f=false

--Dwirm (talk) 18:05, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Utriusque Juris Doctor (or Doctor of both laws) is a completely different degree from Juris Doctor. It is also completely irrelevant to whether the title of Doctor was used by lawyers who did not hold doctorates as a professional title.

Again, that the title was and is used by lawyers with doctoral degrees is already fully covered by this article, so unless there is evidence that the title was used by lawyers who did not have doctoral degrees there is no obvious need to change anything. If you believe there are errors in the article, please state clearly what they are, with evidence to back up your claims. Robminchin (talk) 02:12, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Request for comments

Greetings to all,

A Request for comment has been initiated regarding RfC about whether to allow use of honorofic 'Allama' with the names or not?

Requesting your comments to formalize the relevant policy @ Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles

Thanks

Bookku (talk) 18:06, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Dr. Jill Biden

It seems to me that Jill Biden's photo was removed for political reasons. Why not return her photo as a universally recognizable example of a prominent person who is entitled to the honorific term "Doctor"? After all, Dr. Biden is the only person who has been at the center of a highly visible public debate about who has and who as not earned the right to this title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.161.88.17 (talk) 04:14, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree that, as a general point, someone who has been involved in discussion about the title might be a better illustration of the topic than someone who has a doctorate and can this use the title. However, you are mistaken in thinking that Biden is there only person to have been at the centre of such debates and, given the politically charged nature of using the soon-to-be First Lady, possibly another notable person who had been involved in such as Fern Riddell (who was actually involved in the debate rather than just the subject of it, starting the #ImmodestWomen hashtag) would be a better choice.BBC News - 'It's Dr, not Ms,' insists historian Robminchin (talk) 07:39, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

To IP: I also agree with the general point as Robminchin states it. I also think there are excellent reasons to use Dr. Biden, given her widespread notability as an academic with a doctorate who is currently the first lady-elect for the United States. But Robminchin is absolutely correct that Dr. Biden is nowhere near the first person to have been at the center of this debate; for instance, the first woman to graduate from Harvard with an Ed.D, Lorna Hodgkinson, was later denied her academic record and stripped of her superintendent position [link]. My point being, this problem denying women their duly earned academic titles has an unfortunately long history.

I am the one who set the current image. I chose it to address the concerns raised in edit summaries: it is someone notable (i.e. not a random person); someone from groups who are sometimes denied the title for one reason or another (a woman, and an academic who's doctoral degree is not honorific); and someone who is depicted as wearing clothing unambiguously associated with the "Doctor" title. I would note, I only found two images to choose from in Wikimedia, the other being the one of Dr. Hodgkinson. I'm not very good at image searches though so perhaps there are other, better options.

--Pinchme123 (talk) 17:59, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Use of doctor has nothing to do with the doctoral degree

The "Development in English-speaking countries" section says "The primary meaning of Doctor in English has historically been with reference to the holder of a doctoral degree". I want to petition to change this as this is demonstrably untrue:

Though the academic doctorate was first given in the 1100s (as a license to teach), there was already widespread unrelated usage of the term doctor in Middle English due to the word's association with "expert". This is seen in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, which describes a "Doctor of Physic" (https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dictionary/MED12285). This was written in the late 1300s, and predates by several centuries any doctoral degree given to physicians (who would get it in Scotland in the 1700s). In this usage, the Doctor of Physik is an expert in physic (healing arts). From there flows the term physician.

The source linked earlier also shows the Middle English usage of doctor as 'expert' or 'learned man' - in Bartholomaeus's De Proprietatibus Rerum: "Plato of Athenes was doctour of alle þe prouynce of Attica þat was grecia."

The primary meaning of doctor in English historically has been as 'expert', not a degree holder. Academic doctorates and physicians are called doctor because they are experts, not because of their degree. This also explains how non-doctorate physicians in cultural English countries (MBBS degree, etc) are still called doctors. This explanation of doctors as experts originally is supported by American Heritage dictionary: https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=%20DOCTOR — Preceding unsigned comment added by MGMX2 (talk • contribs) 18:21, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

The degree of Doctor of Medicine (or Physic) had existed since around the 12th century, well before Chaucer was writing. Johnson, cited in the article, gives "A man skilled in any profession" as the second definition, but the existence of this use does not invalidate the fact that he gives "One that has taken the highest degree in the faculties of divinity, law, or physick" as the primary definition – which is accurately reflected in what the article says. There is no evidence to support your assertion that "use of doctor has nothing to do with the doctoral degree". Robminchin (talk) 05:38, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

That degree was not a doctorate of medicine, and regardless was in Italy. Physicians did not have a doctorate (anywhere in the world) until the MD given in Scotland in the 1700s. Thus, it would be be impossible for physicians to have been called doctor due to their degree. I propose at the very least the article clarify that this is not true for physicians, which have derived the title separately from academia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.122.113.127 (talk) 21:00, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

IP, the article already does note the non-degree origins of "Doctor" for physicians in the English-speaking world:

• In many English-speaking countries, it is common to refer to physicians by the title of doctor, even when they do not hold a doctoral level qualification. The word Doctor has long had a secondary meaning in English of physician, e.g. in Johnson's Dictionary, which quotes its use with this meaning by Shakespeare.^[14] ... The usage of the title to refer to medical practitioners, even when they didn't hold doctoral degrees, was common by the mid 18th century.^[21]

The section already covers what you're asking for. --Pinchme123 (talk) 21:46, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't know where you are getting the idea that the first Doctors of Medicine were at Glasgow in the 1700s, but it is completely false. We know the name of people who received DMs at Oxford in the 14th century, such as William de Excestre in 1327 – 16 years before Chaucer was born. We know there was a precedence dispute between the doctors of law and medicine at Oxford in 1385. We know Henry V's regulations of 1421 required physicians to be a "Bachelor or Doctour of Fisyk". We know the original royal charter of the Royal College of Physician in 1518 specified that members had to have a Doctor of Medicine degree from either Oxford or Cambridge.[1] The idea that it was impossible for the title of Doctor to have come to be associated with physicians via the degree when it was originally necessary to have the degree to be a physician is nonsense. Robminchin (talk) 21:59, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

The tab "origin" on mobile hyperlinks to a doctorate of theology.

The tab you open and close has a hyperlink in its title. 24.10.213.251 (talk) 06:48, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Fixed! Robminchin (talk) 06:24, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Footnote does not support the claim

The claim "As a result, many states now have laws in place that protect the title of doctor when offering medical services." is not supported by the provided footnote #120 "Renee Cocchi (19 October 2012). "'Truth in Advertising' legislation for providers growing in popularity". Healthcare Business & Technology. Catalyst Media Network. Retrieved 9 December 2016. 73.67.140.212 (talk) 15:08, 2 September 2022 (UTC)