Talk:Dia de la Comunitat Valenciana

Edit dispute

Seems like @TechnicianGB: has somethign to say in this article. I reverted back to stable version to avoid any Edit warring and I'll he happy to hear any proposal and discuss any solution to find a consensus. But please, do no start reverting legitimate edits.--TaronjaSatsuma (talk) 11:39, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

@TaronjaSatsuma: You have created this page, I have just improved it with data. There wasn't any stable version per se. But anyways, why do you still keep insisting in putting a 1933 civic procession as the headline of the infobox when that doesn't represent anything but a civic procession that happened exactly 88 years ago? Why isn't the official (and yearly recurring) tradition acceptable according to yourself? I have also inserted the other image just because you wanted to, so that's why I'm reverting again with good faith thinking that you will propose a reason here on the talk page to remove an actual image of an tradition rather than imposing one of a 1933 Civic Procession that's no related at all to the actual 9 d'Octubre festivity. --TechnicianGB (talk) 11:43, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Why do you say and why do you assume that I don't accept the yearly recurring tradition as acceptable? Thats not assuming good faith. Both images are from the same parade (so, the same event, so the same recurring tradition). The 1933 one shows the people during the parade and the 2010 pic shows just the flag in the balcony. I want to understand why do you believe the balcony is more representative than the people, that's what I want to understand.--TaronjaSatsuma (talk) 18:01, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

BTW, There is no official name for Mocadorada and the Official institution's dictionary shows Mocadorà as a redirection for Mocadorada.--TaronjaSatsuma (talk) 18:01, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

@TaronjaSatsuma: When you made this article you've made it with the name "National Day of Valencia" which is not supported by any official organism as it's officially called "Dia de la Comunitat Valenciana" or "9 d'Octubre" officially and by most people as well, it's literally only in the Catalan Wikipedia where it says something similar. That's why it was neccessary to make some changes in this page, as they weren't representing any official name nor used name except for a very small part of the population with political reasons. You even said it's celebrated in the Land of Valencia, which is not an official name. I accept all political views (everyone is free to have his/her own point of view) but on Wikipedia we must have WP:NPOV and we have to use official names.

Well, after saying that (which I had to say) now let me tell you why the traditional "baixà de la Senyera" is more important than a 1933 Civic Procession. Why would be a 1933 Civic Procession relevant in any page that's not exactly talking about the historical background of something? In Valencia it didn't happen nothing exceptional in 1933 and as you know, there are official Civic Processions every year made by the own City Hall of Valencia. Isn't there any recent photo of the official Civic Procession in Wikipedia Commons?

Since the flag lowering thing is the official tradition in 9 d'Octubre (and it's not only a "flag" as it's the official Senyera Coronada) that's exactly why I think it should lead the infobox. Don't you think so? I have included the 1933 Civic Procession photo just because you want it, because Wikipedia is a place of common share, but since this article is small and it doesn't even have an extended historical background paragraph (where that photo should belong) I think it's okay to leave it on this page but not in the lede of the infobox.

And as for mocadorà, all of the sources that are inside the page mocadorà mention mocadorà (even the Catalan newspaper La Vanguardia) as the only name. Mocaorà is found as well. Also, the official Generalitat Valenciana website calls it "mocadorà" https://www.gva.es/va/inicio/area_de_prensa/not_detalle_area_prensa?id=894071 and the official website de la Comunitat Valenciana says "mocadorà" or "mocaorà" https://www.comunitatvalenciana.com/va/inspirat/la-mocadora-de-la-comunitat-valenciana-per-sant-dionis in all of the languages the page presents, I've posted here the one in Valencian language. In fact, lots of people, especially from l'Horta call it mocaorà which is the region with the biggest importance regarding this tradition. Mocadorà and mocaorà are pretty much similarly used, but mocadorà is slightly more and it appears in more official websites. I've never heard mocadorada in my entire life, and I've seen it just appears with that name in the Catalan Wikipedia. --TechnicianGB (talk) 10:30, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Given that you're mentioning different issues, let's talk on different spaces. For Mocadorà, check: Talk:Mocadorà. And of course, I have no doubts that other forms may exist.--TaronjaSatsuma (talk) 11:12, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Different issues.

Name

When created the article, I just copied the same structure used in simillar articles. Of course it can be changed, but we are talking on a tradition with more than 500 years of age. It is the "Day of the Comunitat Valenciana" since 1982/1983 (that name didn't existed before). You mentioned "Nou d'Octubre" or "9 d'octubre" as an alternative name. Given the fact that this tradition has had different names trough its history, I believe that "9 d'octubre" would be the most appropiate name. After all, it's the name used in the text and translated into English.--TaronjaSatsuma (talk) 11:28, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

PD: Land of Valencia was the name used in English Wikipedia for years, in use in Commons and was the international name for the region used by the Valencian Government until a corruption case made them abandon it. As said before, the name "Comunitat Valenciana" exists since summer 1982, covering a minimal part of the history of both this particular topic and the history of the Land of Valencia. Obviously the Land of Valencia had a name before its current one. You can check its usage both nowadays and prior in Google Books.--TaronjaSatsuma (talk) 11:28, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

@TaronjaSatsuma: I've inserted 9 d'Octubre on the header as it's the official name, but Dia de la Comunitat Valenciana looks good for me (not opposing to the change to 9 d'Octubre but neither strongly in favor) as this term is more broad and it's also more accepted socially inside the Valencian Community, and it's also the most used name by the Botànic Government to refer to this day. But if you want to do a poll or something about changing the name to 9 d'Octubre I won't oppose to it. Also, the name "Land of Valencia" wasn't used recently until that corruption case, that was just a name to make promotion outside of the community, because since as you've stated before, the actual name exists since 1982 and it's actually the only official name in use, Land of Valencia was incorrectly used in Wikipedia in Wikipedia earliest years as it can be seen on the talk page of Comunitat Valenciana. Also many edits including that name weren't neutral in any way and WP:NPOV is a must when editing Wikipedia. --TechnicianGB (talk) 04:02, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Ok, so we have a consensus with "9 d'octubre" as an acceptable name of the article? I prefer to focus on something acceptable rather than discussing if Valencia is a nation or a region. About the Wikipedia:Survey, I know of this page, but I believe it doesn't fit for this article.--TaronjaSatsuma (talk) 15:34, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Image

As said before, this celebration was created in the XIV century. 1933 is as little relevant as 2010, year of the picture of the flag. The tradition starts with the flag (and some fireworks and music) and continues with the "Civic procession". Indeed, the particular act held in the city of Valencia is known as "Civic Procession" (processó cívica), not as "baixà de la Senyera", as a quick search in google will prove.--TaronjaSatsuma (talk) 11:28, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

@TaronjaSatsuma: But still, that doesn't represent the festivity itself. I've included the image just as an act of good faith because you wanted it in the page, but it's actually not relevant at all. The Senyera Coronada is actually prevailing even in the official Processió Cívica, you will probably like this source since it's À Punt News: https://www.apuntmedia.es/noticies/societat/valencia-recupera-processo-civica-nou-d-octubre_1_1449563.html as you can see, even in the À Punt article it says "Imatge d'arxiu de la tradicional Processó Cívica a València, encapçalada per la Reial Senyera / À Punt NTC" that's why the actual one has to be the image leading the infobox of this festivity, because the Civic Procession itself starts with the Senyera Coronada in front. This is stated by the Generalitat Valenciana and supported by all media including À Punt. You can also upload to Wikipedia Commons a newer image of the official Civic Procession, as that 1933 one is quite different from the actual ones. That was 89 years ago! --TechnicianGB (talk) 04:02, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

@TechnicianGB: I'm afraid there is a mistake. Nobody doubted ever about the flag. I wanted to know why did you believe the flag was more important than the procession itself. Now I have a reason. I mean, for me either both images work, and even newer ones, so I guess the current version might work for both of us.--TaronjaSatsuma (talk) 15:37, 14 January 2022 (UTC)