Talk:Dark wave/Archive 1

Multiple-definition approach

I'm trying to restore my multiple-definitions approach, but I'm including a fourth definition now, the expansive definition that some of the dark wave fans here would seem to like to see used.

If you'd like to try and improve on this, that's great, but I ask you to remember that we're supposed to be *neutral* here, we're working on an encyclopedia entry, not a press release.

As for me, I'm not trying to diss your genre, I'm trying to describe all the meanings of "darkwave" that I think I've seen in use.

-- Doom 22:55, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

It seems like there is a lot of disorganization in this discussion, and being new I wasn't sure where to chime in, but perhaps we should take the encyclopedia approach and see if some of the goth magazine web sites have some workable "darkwave" definition. I certainly would also include a reference to Leipzig's Wave-Gotik-Treffen, as it is a meeting of "wave gotik" music interests. There are also a number of European labels that promote the genre and we should consider working a few of them into the article. Basically I thinking the more connections with established festivals / magazines / labels, the more use the article will have. MCalamari 17:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

What's going on here?

I've got a bunch of small problems with this article, but let's lead with the one big one: what's going on here? If you're one of the people who have been working on re-writing it, I'd like you to ask yourself what your motives are exactly: are you trying to help make the term clear to someone who's never encountered it before? Or are you trying to make it seem more significant than it is to help out your scene/band/etc.?

On with the minutiae:

(0) My contention is that "darkwave" means different things to different people, which means that you need multiple definitions to explain it: this is okay, it happens. Look at the dictionary sometime. My writeup began with the german usage, which seems to have come first; then I talked about the Projekt label association which if anything is the first thing people think of in the US; and also mentioned some other associations (e.g. "dark new wave"). The distinctions between definitions have become totally blurred and the third meaning has been dropped completely. Let me repeat the main point here one more time: there is no one definition that will satisfy everyone: don't just delete a definition that doesn't work for you personally.

(1) The two names that I most often hear as examples of the original Darkwave are "Das Ich" and "Project Pitchfork", so that's what I lead my write-up with. Now "Project Pitchfork" has been removed: why?

(2) "Die Form" has been added, which is a great band to be sure, but it's also a band that has done a lot of different kinds of music, so using them as an example of Darkwave can't possibly clarify what you mean. Also, they're a french band, which makes it a little odd to use them in a discussion of german darkwave.

(3) There's a similar problems with "Android Lust": a woman from bangladesh raised in the US - first release in 1998. What has that to do with German darkwave in 1990 or so?

(4) When was the term "darkwave" first used? Not when did some band start playing that you can later call "darkwave", but when was the term first used? My claim is it came into play around the early 90s, *not* the mid-80s. Can you tell me different? Do you have any evidence? A printed review? Can you find someone from the german scene in the mid-80s who'll swear they started talking about darkwave the moment they heard "The Cure"?

Anyway, I may indluge in another re-write, though when I'm done I'm afraid it'll look a lot like the first writeup that I did...

Doom 03:07, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

The better known bands that crop up in the list of "dark wave" bands in the 2nd paragraph were simply called "alternative" in the 1980s. Unfortunately, Wikipedia editors have rejected the values of the original alternative movement in favor of the much smaller sub-genre of "alternative rock." As a result, people who were around at the time feel some very important bands & influences of the alternative scene aren't getting their due in the "alternative" articles.

FemmyV (talk) 17:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussing the meaning of Dark Wave

I think Dark Wave is not really gothic rock - sometimes it is a mixture from gothic rock and wave, maybe caused by the success of The Cure which are influencial band in the late 80ies. But Das Ich and also Goethes Erben are not really wave music, they are something completely different - Neue Deutsche Todeskunst, a different style. The belgian band The Breath of Life is a interesting mixture of gothic rock and guitar wave. Rabauz 18:05, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Okay, my stab was "a form of synthesizer based gothic rock". What would you suggest as an improvement, something that would get across the german meaning of darkwave very quickly? I'm afraid that the distinction between The Cure and, say, Joy Division is a little fine for my ears, but I guess I can accept the notion that The Cure is midway between gothic rock and new wave. (By the way: I take it that "wave" is a european shortening of the old brit/american term "new wave", tell me if that's wrong.) So what should the article say, a "form of synthesizer based rock music, something like gothic rock or new wave"? -- Doom 12:46, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

I've added some bits that clarify things a little. I'm surprised Attrition haven't been mentioned yet, as they are probably the main band associated with Darkwave as a genre rather than a general term. As you can see from the quote I've added (btw. I did the interview), they were somewhere between the early 80s scenes (Goff, synthpop) and industrial and it wasn't until the term Darkwave came about that there was something that included them. They played in Germany a lot, worked with Ludo Camberlin and released on Antler Records and have had a very close relation to Sam Rosenthal and his Projekt label. Darkwave may originally have been used as a generic term, but it's become a specific genre term for a kind of electronic Goth-influenced music (often adding in classical influences to creat Ethereal Darkwave). This is no different to Gothic itself, or even Heavy Metal. [[Donnacha 17:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)]]

A problematic list

In beginning of this article, I was talking about what appears to be the earliest usage of "Darkwave" to describe some German bands. The bands that seem to be most commonly cited are the two that I listed as most commonly cited: Das Ich and Project Pitchfork. This does not mean that they're the *best*, nor does it mean that they're the *only*, just that they're commonly used to give some indication of what was at least origianlly meant by the term.

Since I wrote this, a list of band names has sprouted between those two names. I'm not familiar enough with them to say where they belong in the article, but I can tell they don't belong inbetween Das Ich and Project Pitchfork. If you really feel like they have to be in the main article, I suggest adding a list at the bottom "other darkwave bands" (I'm reluctant to do that because I hate lists like that in wikipedia... it's an invitation to mindless stamp collecting that doesn't really add much to the discussion of the concept):

• Deine Lakaien
• Clan of Xymox
• The Breath of Life
• The Crüxshadows
• The synthetic dream foundation

(One of these bands is from florida, another is from oklahoma, two of them don't have wikipedia entries, but appear to be metal bands of some sort, judging by a quick google. And while Clan of Xymox is a great band, it would seem a better example of gothic rock than darkwave -- I note that the german wikipedia article about darkwave name drops Xymox, but the babelfish translation -- see below -- reveals that they're calling it an "outlier", evidentally thrown in as an earliest possible example that sort of sounds like what they mean... though I'm afraid that it just makes me think that "darkwave" is and always was a euphemism for "gothic" by people who find the term gothic embarassing for some reason. I mean, Switchblade Symphony, from my neck of the woods, was appearing on gothic-industrial comps in the early 90s and none of us thought they were deserving of a new genre name... but perhaps I digress). -- Doom 12:46, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

Another view from DE: it is always complicated to reconstruct the development of styles and subcultures. But I don´t think dark wave is a euphemism, although there was a gothic influence to dark wave and there are close relations between "dark" music styles. New Wave around 1986 was actually mainstream pop and somehow the members of the New Wave subculture had to react. And they started by hearing darker new wave music like the Cocteau Twins but also other darker (and older) new wave/new romantic songs. Early projects as Deine Lakaien started around this time, of course with a gothic influence, but still doing typical 1980ies New Wave songwriting. I don't know much about the scene pre1986/1987 but I watched what was going from 1987. The term gothic was restricted to gothic rock at this time. I just remember a german CD review of the 1989 Kate Bush Album The_Sensual_World where the author tries to define the music as gothic pop. The expression "gothic" got more popular after the movie gothic (1986). The german Expression "Gotik" is actually very limited to the historical period of gothic architecture and art and does not apply to literature.Rabauz 10:42, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

@Doom: in germany Project Pitchfork were never called "dark wave".

in different magazines of the early 1990's you will find the term "electro(nic) wave".

German wikipedia article

For reference, here's the Babel Fish translation of the de.wikipedia.org article about darkwave:

In English: Dark Wave or also rare Gothic Wave, designates the musical Melange from Gothic and Wave starting from center of the 80's in Germany. As outriders of this style are considered among other things the Netherlands clan OF Xymox, which already 1983/84 strengthen Wave and Gothic elements united and on that 1986 published album "Medusa" perfected. In the same year the Debut appeared that volume your lakaien (1991 again-published) and the only album of the Calling DEAD talk Roses, whose volume members brought the projects Girls Under Glass and CAN cerium bar rack after nearly 1-jaehrigem existence into being. In contrast to the pure Gothic sound here the guitars take a less dominating place, sound partly quite poppig and/or are not used only at all. Further important Dark Wave of volume (selection): Diary OF Dreams, Kirlian Camera, Forthcoming Fire, Sopor Aeternus, Frozen Autumn, The Cruexshadows, Switchblade Symphony, ASP. See also new ones German death art (NDT) Members of the Dark Wave scene like already the proceeding new Wave scene called and/or call themselves Waver, although since center of the 1990er years the comprehensive term Gothics dominate might.

Hope you don't mind.

I added/helped/changed alot of what was on the article. I kept your main paragraph though since it was indeed right. ;)

Not a top-level genre

Darkwave is arguably not a top-level electronic genre (in the same way that techno, trance and house are), I think it should be a subgenre of industrial music and gothic rock, or some combination. Compare "industrial music" vs "darkwave" "techno music" vs "darkwave", and "house music" vs "darkwave". --Lexor|Talk 00:31, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion it is simply the successor of New Wave/New Romantic with a gothic or gothic rock influence. Rabauz 12:53, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hello, I usually take into much consideration google results, but this time I have to disagree, I believe darkwave to be a genre by its own. Musical genres often spring from other musical genres and I think darkwave represents a more ethereal and ambiental aspect than goth music. --xDCDx 04:23, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

maybe Rabauz 11:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree that "Darkwave" isn't a terribly useful term (to me it's always seemed like just another piece of jargon that people like to tack on to club flyers because it sounds cool). But it does get used *just* often enough that every now and then I run into someone wondering what the hell it means. I think it would make sense to have an entry for "darkwave" even if it's just a re-direct to a goth-industrial page that explains darkwave in passing.

Doom 07:52, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

Stylistic origins

I think it is wrong to say dark ambient is the origin of dark wave - IMO it is the other way round, because in the late 80ies and early nineties there was dark wave but no dark ambient. Dark Ambient was later on developed with influences from gothic, classical, dark wave and electronica. Rabauz 11:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What is this supposed to mean? "Throbbing Gristle" didn't do "Dark Ambient"? and what does "Dark Ambient" have to do with DarkWave, the bands that people site as DarkWave typically have danceable beats, i.e. it isn't "ambient". - Doom 13:47, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)

dark ambient is an influence, nothing more. bands like lycia or soul whirling somewhere use typical dark ambient soundscapes.

First/second paragraphs

so there was a darkwave genre in the 80s, at exactly the same time as new wave, but no-one called it darkwave until the 90s? i don't like the way the edit made a few days ago has changed the first paragraph to sound like a description of the 'third definition'. and by "a femine male archtype" i'm assuming they mean "a feminine male archetype", but is that really a useful (or coherent) description? --MilkMiruku 18:54, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

german wikipedia - 2nd Babel Fish translation

» ...up to now 1988 oldest mention «

» I discovered Dark Wave now as term in a 1988's New Life-magazine [number 38 / page 10]. In a review for the electropop artist Invinsible Limits, which wants to have covered "the dark wave classical Love Tear Us Apart from Joy Division". «

1984

The first time I heard the term Darkwave was in 1984. A girl in my high school art class told me that I was wrong to label Bauhaus New Wave, and that the correct term was 'Darkwave'. Back then, we didn't use the term 'Goth' (sometimes 'Gothic' was used, but it was quite rare), and the term 'BatCave' had recently started to become popular; but generally, we just called everything New Wave or Punk. It was much less complicated. Ha ha.

ô.Ô... A term from Canada? We need evidence... magazines, flyers, promotional sheets etc. Scan your stuff, ladies. ;-)

My 2¢

To me darkwave was always just simply a combination of goth rock and elements of industrial, with some ethereal thrown in the mix. I know the etymology is important, but I'm just, as I said, throwing my 2¢ in. Khirad^talk 23:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Psyche

87.122.37.156 seems to have a bit of an axe to grind (Seen by edits at Darkwave, Psyche). I think that the general definition of darkwave would seem to imply that Psyche qualifies (dark, electronic), and the timing is certainly correct.

OK, no prob. but the new stuff of psyche is very technoid. it sounds like future pop... --87.122.7.229 03:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Darrin classes himself and his music as synthpop - Soft Cell are clearly one of the major influences (I agree that "The Hiding Place" was pure futurepop, though. I haven't yet heard "The 11th Hour".) They are borderline darkwave, there is a lot of similarity between their early stuff and Attrition's early stuff, for example. Donnacha 13:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

"The Influence" is a typical darkwave album. It's synth pop too, but synth pop means "synthetic pop music", that's all. Depeche Mode were synthetic pop music, although their Black Celebration album is darkwave. --Menorrhea 15:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't comment on that album, I haven't got it yet. Donnacha 00:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Darkwave as musical Style

"Darkwave isn't a music style. it's a generic term. the music genre infobox is useless..."

I disagree with this, and the edit made by user 87.122.15.202. Darkwave is a genre of music. Some might use it as a somewhat generic term, but it most certainly has a specific meaning in general use. Regardless of such concerns, the new box is uglier, both visually and in code. I intend to revert the change, unless I hear some objections. --Eyrian 18:58, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

go for it :) --MilkMiruku 19:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Darkwave is a H Y P E R O N Y M... do you understand? This term embraced many styles of music like Goth rock or dark Synthpop. Synthpop isn't the same like Gothrock. Electrogoth isn't a subgenre of Darkwave... that's absolutely bullshit.

Maybe you should create a new infobox-template... the music-genre infobox is useless for hyperonyms/generic terms. --87.122.34.248 00:12, March 16 2006

there's two issues at hand here;

a) the problem that, as the article already notes and has been mentioned directly above, 'darkwave' has been used as both an umbrella term and specifically to describe a certain style of music that evolved from new wave. while the older more generic use of the term is valid, i feel that the styles it refers to are the main influences on the bands that the main later usage refers to, something which can be mentioned in the genrebox in the influences section. by all means, exactly what's entered on the genrebox for origins/influences/subgenres is up for debate, but i feel we should be able to come to a concensus on this.

b) the genrebox on the article really needs to use the genre infobox template as specified by Wikipedia:WikiProject Music genres, a point that i don't think there can be much movement on --MilkMiruku 00:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

But it's the wrong way to create an article on the foundations of this infobox. it makes an article wrong. an infobox should be adapted to an article... (not in reverse order).

Hypernym? No. I'd agree on the removal of electrogoth as a subgenre, but I think that darkwave most certainly does qualify as a genre. People can "embrace" a term all they like (words don't embrace people, people embrace words), but that doesn't necessarily affect the common usage. Looking at Gothic rock lists darkwave as a similar genre, Google searches tend to list Darkwave as a term similar and equal to Goth, EBM, etc. Certain "purists" might claim that a word means something, but it doesn't work that way.

The fact is, music genres can't be drawn in hard lines. I believe the preponderance of evidence indicates that Darkwave is a musical genre. --Eyrian 03:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should read the zines of the 80's and not stupid webzines or POV articles of the english wikipedia... The first mention was bauhaus, the second known mention was depeche mode (about 1986, Black Celebration), the third mention was joy division (1988)... i can't see a relationship between these acts. they're dark, that's all. Today, darkwave is a term used for acts like frozen autumn or deine lakaien (they're both pure electronic) and lycia or love spirals downwards (they're guitar acts). darkwave is the dark counterpart of New Wave and the survived part of the New wave era, nothing more. Can you see an infobox in the New wave article?

I see no mention of Darkwave in any of those places (Bauhaus, Depeche Mode, Joy Division), but I think that there is a similar sound. Your claim that Deine Lakaien is pure electronic is flat out false. Further, I am having trouble believing that you cannot see the strong similarities in style (if not precise method) between the four modern acts you mentioned.

To be frank, just because a word means something in a particular language/culture does not imply that it means the same thing in another.

And no, there is not an infobox at New Wave. Anymore. It was removed rather recently.

Please, tell me where you are getting your information. I am working from other wikipedia entries, and information that is available online. You claim that these are "POV" (a term that immediately loses meaning when talking about something that is inherently subjective) and false, yet I have only your assertion that this is the case. I would deeply appreciate some sources. --Eyrian 08:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I see no mention of Darkwave in any of those places...

Now you can...

• New Life Soundmagazine - November 1988 (Coverpage)
• New Life Soundmagazine - November 1988 (Page 10)

Discussion still alive?

Hello, is there anyone still interested in discussing this article? I usually do not read anything related to music genres, becouse I'm new on Wikipedia, and I feel that I have to contribute on articles regarding bands and discographies. Nevertheless, I could improve this page, I can witness for example that the term was used since 1982/83, and that the word Gothic was almost never used those days. Also, a lot of bands need to be mentioned, I'll post a list here tomorrow.Dr. Who 13:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm still here. I do think the article has to be careful about the use of darkwave as a undefined description (similar to how Gothic was applied to Joy Division and Siouxsie and the Banshees) before it became a genre. Attrition and Clan of Xymox are the basis of the genre of electronic Gothic music.

If you have more of an inside interest to the article, absolutely give us your 2 cents. The article can only be improved by those who've been there. It would really help if you had verifiable sources we can gleen from of course, but i'm sure we'll take anything we can get.--Adrift* 02:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The only thing we know is that darkwave is connected to the manysided wave music (and postpunk?) of the late 70s and the 80s. It's definitely not a modern music style (some people think, darkwave is a modern variant of trance or ambient - but that's wrong). Maybe anyone can translate some parts of the extended german article. There seem to be a lot of more informations about this. --Menorrhea 10:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Darkwave has been used as the name of a style for years. I interviewed Martin Bowes a few years ago and he said "At first, there wasn't the same sort of scene and we were in more of an 'industrial' thing. There was nothing like the clubs you get now, it was actually quite difficult to play anywhere that would appreciate you. It's a lot easier now, it's not just Goth, it's a mix - Darkwave or whatever. That's gotten stronger, so that has helped, but really, we were there before it was built." [[1]]. And there's an old alt.gothic discussion featuring Bat from Xorcist and Mick Mercer, author of numerous books on the Goth and related scenes [[2]] Donnacha 15:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Most important are the mentions and the interviews of the 80s and the 90s. In the last decade there was a great misuse of the term darkwave.

In the late 80s/early 90s the band Das Ich was one of the founders of the Neue Deutsche Todeskunst, the last genre within the dark wave movement. Das Ich used elements of goth, post-industrial and electrowave. A lot of bands of the NDT was completely electronic or used neoclassical elements. But no one of these NDT bands was a founder of darkwave, because darkwave is definitely a term from the 80s. Bands like Project Pitchfork were called electrowave until the middle of the 90s (not long after Pitchfork changed their music style with "alpha omega"). I can scan a lot of interviews. These interviews are as old as the hills.

In many countries there were different movements. Specially the English goth movement wasn't really identical to the German movement, because the German movement was a darkwave movement. The members of the German movement weren't called goths in the 80s or early 90s, but they were called waver or grufties. And germany has really the most mentions of the term "dark wave" (including compilations such as The Myths Of Avalon). Strange, but i don't know why...

In England, everything was called goth or new wave. I don't think that british people used the term darkwave. In France everything was called coldwave or batcave. In the US, everything was called goth or industrial. In Germany everything was called new wave, dark wave or simply wave (including goth music. Goth rock bands such as Love Like Blood or Swans Of Avon called their music "dark wave").

In my opinion darkwave is an umbrella term from central Europe. It's not really a music style. A lot of bands mixed the different dark wave genres (e.g. goth with synth pop or goth with ethereal etc.). But that's more a crossover thing. Specially the 90s were a decade of crossover. Darkwave isn't a musicologically homogeneous style. --87.122.28.187 20:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This is complete tosh. Dark wave may have been used in the 80s, but darkwave as a genre came about in the late '80s/early '90s. I can't stress this enough - it has been used as a genre terms for over 10 years. You can complain about it being "misused" - go join the old school industrial "it ended in '82", old school EBM "futurepop is dance music" elitists in the past - and leave people who actually know about how terms are currently used to deal with this. I'm a journalist, I used to review releases from around the world and I know that darkwave has been used and continues to be used broadly and fairly specifically. It's electronic Goth music or it's ethereal. Donnacha 00:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

darkwave is not a musicstyle. and darkwave isn't inevitably electronic music. ethereal is a complete other thing with walls of guitarsounds and noise elements. where is the difference between dark wave and darkwave? thats absolutely bullshit. the same thing like cold wave and coldwave or electro wave and electrowave, future pop and futurepop. In germany you'll find the term "dark wave", mainly used in the early 90s. Forget the last 10 years, the heyday of darkwave was between 1979 and 1994.

Ethereal darkwave is generally seen as a sub-genre of darkwave because many of the bands tend to do both. Specific examples are Attrition and Die Form as those who pioneered darkwave as a style and bands like The Machine in the Garden. Ethereal invariably has an electronic synthesizer base, over which guitars may be added. Without the electronic elements, it's more likely shoegazer (dreampop in the US). Donnacha 23:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

today people call Funker Vogt or VNV Nation and other dance shit "darkwave". that's completely stupid. there's no connection to the wave movement. forget the stupid webmagazines. The writer are little kiddies without a historical background knowledge. they use for any shit terms like gothic or EBM. --87.122.6.44 01:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, 87.122.6.44. My edits below represent the point of view of a number of people along the 1980s, but I do not believe that from a strictly musical point of view Darwave is a music genre fully different from post punk or new wave, whatever you call them. Musicians usually dislike every genre definition. It reminds me the stuff about IDM, Chillout and Electronica, I mean that such words were used with a metaphoric purpose, someone didn't understand that, and believed that some new genres were born: that's ridicolous.Dr. Who 01:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That is how virtually all genres were born. Genre names are generally created by PR people or journalists - artists have little or nothing to do with it. Get over it. Donnacha 11:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a bit of a tangent, but I don't agree that genre names are exclusively from journalists or PR people. Electronic Body Music comes from Front 242's album "No Comment". Raoul "Rotation" Roucka is often credited with coining the power noise genre. Ronan Harris may be the artist responsible for popularizing future pop. I'm less certain, but I strongly suspect that Hyperium's "Heavenly Voices" compliation may have really coined that term (which I'll add is not frequently used in the United States, but I've seen it frequently in Germany). That said, I do agree with the point of this thread (though not the tone), that referencing webzines should be done with care. My suggestion for defining the terms is to look at several sources: major genre specific festivals (or stages at those festivals), trade magazines within the larger genres (take Side-Line as one example), compliation disks on some of the more respected labels, and finally we might be able to find a few liner notes from albums that use the term -- Mike Goedrijk of This Morn' Omina is doing this with "ritual music" (which I've frequently heard called tribal industrial). The point is too not allow our opinions guide this encyclopedia article, but to look at what the industry is doing. MCalamari 06:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

In some cases nevertheless such terms may last a very short time, there are so many that I've heard in last 25 years that now are forgotten. I dislike most of these nonsense words, anyway I'm sure that there are a few clever journalists that will help Wikipedia some day (please, your sentence get over it sounds a bit too personal, I'm not sure I can understand). Dr. Who 12:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

As I pointed out above, I am a journalist who spent years reviewing this kind of stuff. Mainly between 1996 and 2002. The term was commonly used all through that time in press releases, biogs, bands' descriptions, etc.Donnacha 23:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC

Oh, and anyone who thinks Funker Vogt or VNV Nation are "dance" music has no idea what dance music is. Both bands are heavily EBM and darkwave influenced and regarded as far too dark by most dance fans. Donnacha 23:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so what are you willing to do with this article? I am amused to see that up to two days ago this discussion was almost dead. Dr. Who 00:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I've already added bits to the article - it currently represents the facts fairly well, I don't know what people want changed other than those who seem to want to remove the fact that it's the name of a style rather than an old descriptive term. Donnacha 13:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Funker Vogt and VNV Nation use TECHNO sounds...techno and trance. there is no darkwave sound... maybe a little influence of EBM, nothing more. Go and wash your ears, Donnachadelong. --87.122.32.88 10:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Ronan's vocal style has more in common with darkwave than with EBM or any form of dance music. The darker parts of VNV's synth sounds have elements of darkwave. VNV also include ambient and IDM. Funker Vogt I'm less familiar with, but they're not a "dance" band. As someone who listens to quite a bit of darkwave and technno, I'm fully aware of the similarities with BOTH. To quote Ronan himself: "I think 'futureperfect' showed roots in [the '80s Front 242/Nitzer Ebb] scene and it showed roots in very emotive music, bringing together elements of dance music, being also an underground electronic album on a wider scale of things. It had an appreciation on a lot of different dimensions. And a lot of people picked up on that, there were magazines reviewing us that had no connection with us. It's not commercial music, 'cos no commercial radio station would even touch us. It is from the scene, but I think we've broken a barrier." [[3]] Donnacha 13:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Ronan describes his music as "Future Pop", which I believe is a way to actually bridge a gap (in his mind) between Synthpop and EBM. Your quote is actually good, and illustrates that he feels his music had connections to EBM, but also hints that he feels it is something different / emotional. What I don't see in the quote is a reference to darkwave, unless we are using darkwave as a larger description <-- a definition I'm open to. MCalamari 06:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I think 'futureperfect' showed roots in [the '80s Front 242/Nitzer Ebb] scene. Futureperfect is a pc software album. A software album shows the 80s roots? *lol* --Menorrhea 16:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You sound like those metal fans who bitched about keyboards and drum machines in the 80s there. What difference does it make what instruments were used to make the album? VNV were one of the 3 bands who created the futurepop sound, so there's no way they can be classed with the cookie cutter bands who followed. Futurepop clearly contained a major EBM influence - granted it was less pronounced on 'futureperfect', 'Harmonizer' and 'United States of Mind', which were all the high water mark of mainstream dance music for the big 3, but it was still there. Donnacha 23:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

For a connection to a 80s EBM feeling the instruments of the 80s are most important. You can not reproduce EBM with instuments like Roland TB 303 or an ugly PC software. EBM use Korg MS-20, Oberheim or Yamaha DX7 sounds - not Fruity Loops or Re-birth crap. The equipment is a main characteristic of EBM. --Menorrhea 00:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

LOL, so you're saying Male or Female cannot be connected to Front 242 then, or Fixmer/McCarthy to Nitzer Ebb? Nonsense. Musical styles are based on the music, not the equipment. Artists use the technology that's available to them. Donnacha 15:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Yep, you're right. Let's make classical music with digeridoos and bongos. The equipment is irrelevant. Haha, never heard this shit. A music style is dependent on its equipment, thats a fact. But maybe you'll make electroclash with a TR 909... and folk music with an Ibanez guitar. Oh heaven. --Menorrhea 16:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

So, you're saying that Fixmer/McCarthy have nothing to do with Nitzer Ebb, then, are you? Despite the fact that they play NE songs? And Front 242 themselves have nothing to do with F242 because they've updated their equipment. This is pure nonsense. Music is about how it sounds, claiming anything else is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If you can get the right sounds for classical music from digeridoos and bongos, then, yes, you can make classical music with bongos and digeridoos. Donnacha 16:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is alive and kicking

Dark wave (also simply Dark) was a music scene within the 1980s post-punk and new wave; if regarded as a style in itself, dark wave is a derivative form of New Wave (and postpunk) whose artists' "look" and lyrics featured a predominant influence of a sort of existentialism. Those artists' music was postpunk strongly influenced by electronic and experimental music of 1970s (mostly the German artists). The scene was born in late 1970s-early 1980s, and lasted along the 1980s, fading slowly in late 1980s-early 1990s. After those days the New Wave sound died, keyboards, "flangered" guitars and electronic pads were left away. Each band/artist followed a different style and a different path: some become "gothic rock", some become technopop, synthpop and later house techno, some turned to experimentalism and (pure) electronic and ambient music; a lot of bands (most of them, I guess) simply disbanded and "died". Here is a short list, I am sure it is not complete, sorry for forgetting some notable artists. by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I've seen folk music played on Ibanez guitars.

List of Darkwave artists and bands

• Bauhaus (Tones on Tail were the only "Dark wave" Bauhaus spin-off)
• Cocteau Twins (some works)
• The Cult (some works)
• The Cure (some works)
• Danse Society (some works)
• Dead Can Dance
• Fad Gadget (some works)
• Fields of the Nephilim
• Joy Division
• New Order - only a few earlier works were "Dark", later they pioneered house and techno
• Sad Lovers and Giants
• Siouxsie and The Banshees
• The Sisters of Mercy
• The Sound
• Theatre of Hate
• Tuxedomoon (some works)
• Virgin Prunes

by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Darkwave as a style began with Attrition and Clan of Xymox, though wasn't given that name until the late 80s/early 90s. All the above are either straightforward punk/new wave (The Cure, the Banshees, Virgin Prunes, Joy Division), Gothic Rock (Bauhaus, Fields of the Nephilim, early The Cult, Sisters of Mercy, Danse Society), shoegazer (Cocteau Twins, Dead Can Dance) or somewhere in between. Donnacha 13:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Any useful sources? I can see one source only... a review of 1988 from a magazine called "new life soundmagazine". IMO there is no musical style called "darkwave", because everyone use this term for completely different styles of music which are connected to the new wave movement. But maybe your opinion is a regional point of view?

BTW: No one called Cocteau Twins or Dead Can Dance as "shoegazer". Shoegazer is a term created in the 90s by a band called Swervedriver. --Menorrhea 15:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Rubbish, the term shoegazer was in common use by the end of the 80s for bands like My Bloody Valentine and Lush and grew into the 90s for Ride and Red House Painters and the likes. I heard the term long before I heard Swervedriver. It now tends to be used for all the early 4AD acts, including DCD and Cocteaus (perhaps somewhat incorrectly). Try reading the Wikipedia entry [[4]] Donnacha 23:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

My acquaintances include people that work in the music industry since late 1970s, such as DJs, tour-gigs managers, dozens of minor and indipendent musicians, a classic musician whose associated label has also released a CD by a very notable Ambient music pioneer (the real , pure ambient music "school" of Brian Eno), and even some guys that work for press (also music press) in Italy and Germany, not mentioning a number of listeners from UK, Greece and the Balcans, South America, the USA and Australia. So please do not bother me, I don't come here to post nonsense. Feel free to add Attrition and Clan of Xymox to the above list. The terms Dark (as a style or subgenre of New Wave) and Darkwave are "on the wave" and in my hears since 1983, but they could have been coined before. With regard to Virgin Prunes, for example, in 1985 I listened to a very experimental work (on a limited edition 10" vynile) featuring the voice of a ill baby making strange noises for a whole side of the LP, so I wouldn't call them "new wave", such sonic experimentalism is common in the Dark scene. The list of facts that I could add is very long, I'm very sorry that I do not have enough time to add more info here (well, the truth is that I have to earn my money somewhere else). Cheers and sincere hugs to all. Good work. Dr. Who 15:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

There are over two million hits on google for darkwave, most of them using darkwave as a top-level genre alongside Goth and often industrial. The article is currently correct, it started out as a general term and developed into a specific style. Siouxsie and the Banshees and The Cure were often described as "Gothic", but that doesn't make them part of the Goth Rock scene as that came about later. I haven't once disagreed that the term may have been used in the 80s for the above bands, but it wasn't a genre at the time. Attrition and Clan of Xymox are the origin of the style. It's pointless to list bands that were called Dark Wave in one place, Gothic in another and punk in yet another. Only the bands that are part of the darkwave scene should be listed. Donnacha 22:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I found an interesting interview of the french coldwave band Excès Nocturne from 1989. It's from a french magazine called „Illusions Perdues“. Excès Nocturne describe their music as "new wave noire" (dark new wave). --Menorrhea 22:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This link is spam, it takes to an image not to an interview. Can you fix it, or are you just jokin?Dr. Who 23:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the interview! Its the scan of the magazine from 1989. A real source, not POV  ;-) --Menorrhea 23:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems that the link is working now. Anyway, Bauhaus and Joy Division are the fathers of Dark, regardless the lies that someone wants to post here just to waste my time.Dr. Who 00:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Bauhaus are the fathers of Goth, Joy Division are one of the seminal post-punk band. This is what they're known as in England, their home country. "Dark" is nothing more than a adjective to be applied to any and every band the way you're using it, particularly as a contraction of dark new wave. For the upteenth time, just as it says in the article, darkwave went from being a broad term to a specific style name as the specific style developed. Donnacha 00:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Sonic features

Vocals: often had a disctinctive "metallic" sound, and rejected common ways to sing "easy" melodies. Iggy Pop and Lou Reed may be regarded as the main influence
Guitars: distortion, long reverb, echo (high number of short repetitions) and flanger; solos were very minimalist
Bass guitar: chorus/flanger
Keyboards: soundscapes, featured an influence from Brian Eno and 1970s German electronic music, rejecting almost totally the lessons of British progressive rock
Drums: the style of Neu! drummer Klaus Dinger was still the main influence, electronic pads were often used and the rhythm was sometimes suitable for dancing.
by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Fashion

Please note that dressing like Robert Smith become somewhat fashioned (for some groups of people) in mid and late 1980s (depending on the country). Anyway, many musicians that dressed in black and had a post-punk look were not Darkwavers: Gary Numan and Ultravox were not Dark, despite being dressed in black along 1983/84, U2 and Brian Eno dressed in black during the recording sessions of The Unforgettable Fire album, as showed in a relevant video, of course they had nothing to do with the Dark scene.by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Please explain how Gary Numan/Ultravox were not "Dark", while Fad Gadget was. Donnacha 13:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I explained in the Gothic rock talk page.Dr. Who 00:39, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Musicology

Dark may be regarded as a subgenre of Goth rock, crossed with a strong "New Wave influence". Actually more than a subgenre or a style in and for itself, Darkwave is just a mood within postpunk, and also a music scene if referred to those bands of early 1980s. Since early 1990s the term Gothic rock has been used to encompass most of Darkwave music and related works/artists. Notably, Peter Murphy solo career is Gothic rock, but only few of his songs are Darkwave. The Cult become a hard rock band after 1986, and it is arguable whether they can be referred to as Gothic. In my opinion the term Gothic rock appeared only recently, I have never heard "Goth" along the early-mid 1980s, but I could be wrong. By the by, I had the chance (20/22 years ago) to see Siouxsie and The Banshees, The Sound, Ultravox and The Cult in live gigs in my "hometown"; though I am no longer a Darkwave listener, I still remember and regard those shows as simply great and wonderful.by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Any sources? Scans of ancient music magazines? Event flyers? Books or other references? The problem is that there are bands in the footsteps of the early darkwave bands. They use the same instruments, the same sounds etc. Especially the french coldwave movement based on the music of Joy Division and The Cure. And at the end of the 80s The Cure released the album "disintegration", a post-new-wave album. It's definitely darkwave. The Sisters Of Mercy released "Floodland" (1987), Depeche Mode released Black Celebration (1986). So after the fading of the new wave movement darkwave definitely survived, became an underground thing and received an impetus in the early 90s. That's a fact. Now darkwave is a dying genre, that's true. But it dies since the end of the 90s. The most bands in the dark scene of today mainly use metal or techno/dance/trance sounds of the 90s... And this kills the last fragments of the darkwave movement. --Menorrhea 00:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

While I agree with you with regard to Cure, Depeche Mode and Sister of Mercy, please note that I was referring to Darkwave as a full scene, it is obvious that rock genres now can't die, becouse today everybody can take a computer and record a CD. What are you questioning? What are you asking to me? Dr. Who 00:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

As usual, the electronic dance music fanatics aged about 20 with no serious musical knowledge and background, are about to steal even the term Darkwave? That's really too bad. They should really be punished. None of my generation would have ever dared to steal the term blues or jazz for his/her own maniacal selfish success. Cheers, --Dr. Who 16:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The phrase "gothic rock" is generally used over "goth" as a term of disambiguation (particularly here on Wikipedia). The word "goth" can mean a lot of things, but say "Gothic rock" and people know you're talking about a style of music. But most people (including myself) just say "goth" when referring to the genre. WesleyDodds 02:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I must admit that "recent" in my way of speaking often means "from 1990s onward", sorry if that may appear confusing to some. I am aware that Goth and Goth rock are terms used in UK since early 1990s (and maybe in USA, too?), but only later they appeared (if that happened) in the rest of Europe.--Dr. Who 21:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The terms Goth and Goth Rock date back to 1983 in the UK [[5]]. Death Rock tended to be the term used in the US around the same time.

In related business, about a year ago the NME published a collection of articles on goth dating from the late 70s to the early 90s. When it comes to bands like Bauhaus, the Cure, and the Sisters of Mercy, "goth" has preference over "darkwave". Part of it has to do with the name darkwave implying there's some sort of major connection to New Wave, when there isn't. WesleyDodds

Maybe we should use both terms for the music of the early darkwave/goth bands. I don't see any problem. But today, goth is another thing. Especially in Germany, when you say you like "goth", people think you like Nightwish, Subway to Sally, In Extremo, L'âme Immortelle, Blutengel, Marilyn Manson and other shit. When you say you like "gothic rock", people think you like HIM, 69 Eyes or Evanescence etc. Today the German movement is a cybergoth movement or a "metal-goth" movement without a connection to the wave music. In my opinion the new generation has forgotten that the goth movement was a postpunk/darkwave movement.

The main difference I can see between goth and darkwave is that goth is a term which is commonly used to describe every kind of dark or spooky music, including modern techno-/dance-/trance-/triphop-/metal-influenced music. On the other hand, darkwave is limited in time (and sound & equipment). It's a musical epoch like new wave. --Menorrhea 08:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually what I see is that the terminology used in different countries and regions is different. Also, terms are often misapplied; lots of people have called Marilyn Manson goth, but then again most people have never heard Bauhaus. Hell, I never heard "real" goth until I started working at a college radio station.

I think it's more important that the darkwave of the 90's is defined and its seminal acts detailed in this article rather than getting wrapped up in the debate of whether or not certain band from the 80s is darkwave or not. Personally I reject darkwave as genre term when referring to 80s bands such as Joy Division, The Cure, Cocteau Twins, Depeche Mode, and so forth because there are other, more accurate, specific, and consistently-used-in-print genre terms to describe them. For example, those four bands have been categorized in Anglo/American music terminology as post-punk, goth, dream pop, and synthpop, respectively. WesleyDodds 10:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, but when there are different POVs in different regions - how do you define the darkwave music of the 90s? In Germany and other countries the bands had a strong connection to the old bands of the 80s. La Floa Maldita, Chandeen, The Frozen Autumn, Faith & The Muse, The Garden Of Delight, Pink Turns Blue, Love Spirals Downwards, Silke Bischoff, and many more - all of these bands were categorized as darkwave bands and all of these bands sounded like 80s music groups. There was not a great cut between 80s and 90s. They simply continued the sound of the 80s until the middle of the 90s without an influence of modern styles like techno. --Menorrhea 11:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

For the upteenth time, darkwave as a genre was largely defined by Attrition and Clan of Xymox, two '80s bands. Mick Mercer describes darkwave as the term bands who were "too cool for Goth" used, but the main characteristics are either: Gothic electronica or ethereal. Das Ich had the Gothic electronica thing going, pretty much every Projekt act had the ethereal thing. It's easier to define than Goth, which causes so many arguments that WiG? (What is Goth?) is a Usenet in-joke, a discussion likely to go on and on and never reach an end. Donnacha 23:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Mick Mercer... Mick Mercer is a journalist from england, and maybe one of the daddys of the british goth movement. He's not god and he was not an influence on the developments in central europe. IMO he's completely irrelevant for this article. He never used the term "darkwave" in the 80s. Mercer called any shit "goth", including neoclassical, ethereal etc... --Menorrhea 00:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I know well who Mick Mercer is, thank you very much. I don't even agree with his point, I though it was worth quoting. However, the very fact that he, and pretty much everyone else in the UK, used Goth, not Darkwave, proves my point. Its use in the UK is generally in relation to the style darkwave, not an old German umbrella term. I'll post the Usenet link again to the conversation on darkwave from a few years ago [[6]], which Mick joined.

...and this is an international encyclopedia and not a south-english encyclopedia. Darkwave is an umbrella term. In Germany, in the US etc. --Menorrhea 16:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The term was used specifically for the kind of music Attrition make by bands and labels all over the world while I was writing about this scene from '96 to 2002. If you read the linked piece, you'll see input from Americans and Germans about this.Donnacha 16:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I can scan upteen articles with the term darkwave... and these articles aren't not from Attrition. So take a deep breath. You're not the only guy with references. --Menorrhea 16:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Danse Society

I created the article Danse Society. Everybody is welcome to check and expand it.--Dr. Who 00:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

perhaps they will reunite after realizing that a Google search hits over 70,000 entries and that even Wikipedia has a page :). Dr. Who 00:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The present time

The article is missing a section regarding the present days. The Bauhaus reunited, maybe the interest towards these bands is slowly increasing. I believe it is a general phenomenon, many "alternative" musical genres and scenes are currently joined by larger numbers of fans than in the past, thanks to the web. So it is worth making further searches.Dr. Who 00:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

You're really getting irritating now. Bauhaus are the seminal goth band, it makes no sense to use the OLD meaning of darkwave to refer to them. They're Goth. There are modern darkwave bands, The Cruxshadows being the most famous. Donnacha 15:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Bauhaus is Goth. Well? The old Goth style was a part of darkwave and this should be mentioned in the article.

BTW: Don't forget, this is the darkwave article, not the Attrition article. The label info and the first release in the US are completely irrelevant. --Menorrhea 16:10, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The old use of darkwave is no longer valid, thus a Bauhaus reformation has nothing to do with darkwave. The Attrition material links the label with a seminal darkwave band, thus is relevant. The previous wording implied that they just came up with the term and had no connection to any previous part of it. That's not true.

Your OLD USE of darkwave IS valid. Maybe you should read a few books. --Menorrhea 16:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

IT IS NOT USED THAT WAY ANYMORE! Thus it's meaningless. Also, there is an article on Ethereal, why add back in the comparisons that are contained within it? And what the hell is the point in including a comparison with a post-industrial style (neo-folk) which sounds similar, but is very different.

Neofolk is a part of the darkwave movement. The first neofolk band was Death In June...the band is an outgrowth of the punkband Crisis. There are overlaps with post-industrial - that's all. But the first neofolk group came definitely from the punk/new wave movement. --Menorrhea 16:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Neofolk is generally agreed to have been an outgrowth of Psychic TV's first two albums. Psychic TV were the main post-industrial group. No-one in the punk scene used the term darkwave, so people in Crisis would have no idea what you are talking about. Stop applying obscure German terms to UK bands. Darkwave developed into a specific style at the end of the 80s. That style does not include neofolk, which is a style all of its own. Donnacha 16:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

So stop applying obscure German terms to your POV music style. Attrition is a british band. So they are industrial or goth... --Menorrhea 16:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

"At first, there wasn't the same sort of scene and we were in more of an 'industrial' thing. There was nothing like the clubs you get now, it was actually quite difficult to play anywhere that would appreciate you. It's a lot easier now, it's not just Goth, it's a mix - Darkwave or whatever. That's gotten stronger, so that has helped, but really, we were there before it was built." - Martin Bowes ([interviewed by me]).Donnacha 16:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't you have another source? Probably it's the only one... --Menorrhea 16:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[Try google] Donnacha 17:10, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Try again *lol* --Menorrhea 17:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, Donnacha, we should divide this fucking article. The first part shall be called "Darkwave as an umbrella term", the second part shall be called "Darkwave as a music style". And YOU write the second part... --Menorrhea 17:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Fine, suits me. Donnacha 17:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

But don't forget: the second part is a regional point of view. ;) --Menorrhea 17:30, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Germany and the US count as a region? Donnacha 00:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Rrrr, now the article is wrong. Darkwave is a valid umbrella term and maybe darkwave refers to a music style in a few regional scenes, that's all. For The Frozen Autumn, Love Is Colder Than Death, Das Ich etc, darkwave is an umbrella term, because these music groups are completely different. Das Ich had a post-industrial influence (Einstürzende Neubauten), Frozen Autumn is more synthpop/wave and Love Is Colder Than Death use neoclassical elements. All of these bands are summarized under the umbrella term darkwave. --Menorrhea 07:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

"Post-industrial influence, synthpop/wave and neoclassical elements" pretty much define the sound and very accurately define Attrition's sound. I'm tired of this now, I've given numerous sources, including primary ones. The article is now an accurate reflection of what I know about the scene that started in Germany in the late 80s/early 90s and spread to the US. Donnacha 08:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Numerous sources? Sorry, i saw TWO sources, nothing more. --Menorrhea 08:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The google groups link is to a discussion, including Bat from Xorcist and Mick Mercer. That's numerous sources for one link. Donnacha 13:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't find an useful source. There is a discussion crowd which thinks that darkwave is a creation of Project Pitchfork and Das Ich... brrrr. --Menorrhea 13:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Voila your Point Of View - a refusal to accept that your blinkered view is not shared by people who were there at the time, including a veteran musician who co-owned one of the biggest scene clubs in the US in the 90s, a historian of the scene and a range of other long-term scene queens. Donnacha 13:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

A historian like Dr. Who? ;-) Without a useful source like magazines, flyers, books etc. every thing is POV (including this discussion)... ---Menorrhea 13:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

No, the author of four books on the history of the Gothic and related scene and contributor to numerous influential magazines since the 70s. That's an historian.

Split article

I've made the first stab at splitting the article into the umbrella term and the specific style. It could definitely do with some more work, but that's it for now. Donnacha 00:50, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The main problem is that there are different bands with a different sound. Lycia use elements of gothic rock, noise and dark ambient. Love Like Blood was a simply goth rock group. Silke Bischoff's main influence on the first album was the music of Depeche Mode. Das Ich were fans of the Einstürzende Neubauten. All of these bands used and mixed stylistic elements of the 80s, including industrial, synth pop, dream pop or goth rock etc. But there is not a discernibly homogeous music style. All of these bands sound completely different. --Menorrhea 08:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW: In Germany, the most darkwave bands didn't knew the british band Attrition. German bands were influenced by music groups like The Sisters Of Mercy, The Cure, Einstürzende Neubauten, Depeche Mode, Fields Of The Nephilim and others... The Crüxshadows had a darkwave album called "The Mystery Of The Whisper". Later stuff of this band is extremely modern with a techno-influence. Collide use elements of Industrial Rock and Trip Hop, there is not a darkwave sound. --Menorrhea 08:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

In other words, you've got not interest in actually compromising or talking account of the last 15 years. Fine, have your little article. I'm sick of it, but before I go... Donnacha 08:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Compromise...? You had completely dissolved the section "darkwave as an umbrella term". This wasn't planned. --Menorrhea 08:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV dispute

Despite citations and easy to find sources on the web, there are two people who insist on imposing their own personal view on this article in contravention of common use of the term darkwave for 15 years or so. Details above. Donnacha 08:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you're really sick... ;) --Menorrhea 08:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

German references

Zines 1988-1996

• 1988-1 — New Life Soundmagazine No.38, Front, November 1988
• 1988-2 — New Life Soundmagazine No.38, Review, November 1988
• 1990-1 — Glasnost Wave Magazine No.21, Interview, May 1990
• 1990-2 — Epitaph Magazine No.3, Review, October 1990
• 1991-1 — Epitaph Magazine No.4, Review, March 1991
• 1991-2 — Epitaph Magazine No.4, Review, March 1991
• 1991-3 — Zillo Magazine, Review, 1991
• 1992-1 — Zillo Magazine, Interview, 1992
• 1992-2 — Gift Magazine, Advertisement, 1992
• 1993-1 — Zillo Magazine, Interview, 1993
• 1993-2 — Zillo Magazine, Interview, 1993
• 1993-3 — Subline Magazine, Interview, 1993
• 1993-4 — Subline Magazine, Advertisement, 1993
• 1993-5 — Gothic Press Magazine, Review, 1993
• 1993-6 — Vertigo Magazine, Cover, May 1993
• 1994-1 — Zillo Magazine, Concert Report, 1994
• 1994-2 — Subline Magazine, Advertisement, 1994
• 1994-3 — Zillo Magazine, Interviews, 1994
• 1994-4 — Zillo Magazine, Interview, 1994
• 1994-5 — Zillo Magazine, Interview, 1994
• 1994-6 — Subline Magazine No.2, Club Report, February 1994
• 1995-1 — Zillo Magazine, Advertisement, 1995
• 1996-1 — Zillo Magazine No.3, Interview, March 1996
• 1996-2 — Zillo Magazine No.10, Interview, October 1996

Other stuff

Death Pop Mention: 1993 — Subline Magazine, Advertisement, 1993

Hey, I'm glad to see those scans of german magazines... at least you can prove that "darkwave" was in use as far back as 1990 (myself I don't think I heard the term until 1993 or so). But the article insists the term was first used in the 1980s... does anyone have any data to support that?

I hate to be a pain about it, but the history of this article shows a tendency for some people to try and exaggerate the importance of the term, so things like this really do need to be supported.

My take on "darkwave" is that it clearly means a number of different things to different people, so if you're making pronouncements about the One True Meaning of the term, you're clearly not being "neutral". -- Doom 02:07, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that any thing is called goth or darkwave today. A few people think that Rammstein is goth, a few people think that Evanescence is goth, a few people think that VNV Nation is industrial and a few people think that Death In June is pop music, whatever. The same shit like "darkwave". Important to me is the first meaning of the term darkwave. Modern electronic music cannot be Wave music, this is absolutely logical to me, because the term Wave is connected to the music of the 70s/80s. --Menorrhea 12:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

PS: I added the darkwave mention of november 1988.

Books

• 2001-1 - Die Gothics, Book Front, 2001, ISBN 3-933773-09-1
• 2001-2 - Die Gothics, Wave/Dark Wave, 2001, ISBN 3-933773-09-1

Compilations

• 1992-1 — VA - The Myths Of Avalon

The most bands in these magazines were goth rock bands in the vein of Sisters, Fields, Cure or And Also The Trees. And they were called "darkwave" until the middle of the 90s. Shortly after, the term "darkwave" came out of use in the most regional scenes of Germany, because the Wave music had finally faded. Music styles, such as gothic metal, medieval rock or electro-industrial, displaced this relic of the 80s.

So as you can see, it's not my POV. I have a little magazine collection. Maybe i'll scan more in the next time. --Menorrhea 01:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

It is your point of view that the early 90s German bands who defined darkwave as a music style should not be included as part of the music style. It is also your point of view that the American ethereal darkwave scene should not be included as part of the music style. It is futhermore your point of view that a band cannot be called darkwave, despite being what they are called in the scene, if they use modern electronic elements like hip hop or techno. Your magazine scans do nothing more than show, as I have acknowledged, that the term was originally used more broadly than it came to be subsequently. However, the origins of the darkwave style were the bands Attrition and Clan of Xymox, though the term didn't come into specific use until Das Ich, Project Pitchfork and a number of other bands started a new scene. Much like gothic rock or Industrial, it is a fluid and expansive term that defines a number of bands, from the 90s until now, who sit between gothic rock, synthpop and industrial. A short-hand definition of the style is Gothic electronica with all the variations that encompases (including modern elements such as those used by Collide and Cruxshadows). Your refusal to recognise this, despite the opinions expressed by a number of people above, despite the clear outlines in the google groups discussion and the absolute ease in googling hundreds of articles and reviews that back this up is your POV. Donnacha 13:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, for a term that went out of use in Germany, it's very odd that there are 821,000 sites in German that mention it. Donnacha 13:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ethereal darkwave is a subgenre of darkwave and it looks good under the umbrella term. WAVE is connected to the 80s, but maybe you can not hear the difference between 80s sound and the sound of the 90s. Modern instruments and sounds haven't a connection to the Wave music. That's absolutely logical. And go home with your probable style. I can not find any USEFUL source of YOUR music style. That's pure POV. The term Gothic electronica wasn't never used in germany... not every kind of music was gothic music. Pitchfork was simply Electro Wave. --Menorrhea 13:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Your POV is that darkwave isn't a genre, it's an umbrella term, yet it can have subgenres? You're contradicting yourself now. You might note that, completely independently of me, The Crüxshadows and Project Pitchfork are called darkwave here. I never said "Gothic electronica" was a term used, it's a shorthand description. Heh, and Electro Wave is so well known, it doesn't have an English page. The Wave part was dropped years ago (even in Germany) and it's been electro, electropop or elektro since the end of the 90s. Elektro (dark electro) and darkwave are not that far apart and crossover a lot (Das Ich are definitely more elektro than darkwave these days). Donnacha 13:57, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Within the new wave movement there were different styles. Talking Heads was Rock, Depeche Mode was electropop, Boy George used reggae elements - completely different styles within the new wave movement. The dark side of this was dark wave, nothing more. --Menorrhea 14:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Not once have I disagreed with you about this. What your POV refuses to accept is that Dark Wave, in the umbrella sense of the dark side of New Wave, shrank down to darkwave in the early 90s and became a widely-used genre term. The reverse happened with industrial - a term very specifically related to the Industrial Records scene and a few similar bands in the late-70s/early-80s that ended in '82 (leading many of the participants to label their music post-industrial). It was used here and there for a few bands in the 80s (including metal bands like Voivod), but in 91/92, it exploded. Suddenly, everyone was industrial. There was industrial rock, industrial metal, industrial dance, etc. Bands like Front 242 found themselves being called industrial and complained about it. Nine Inch Nails were asked not to use it anymore by Coil, Ministry tried to use the term Aggro, 21st Circuitry Records tried to use Coldwave instead, but it was too late. Industrial is now so broad, it's virtually meaningless. Donnacha 14:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you can see that darkwave was an umbrella term until the middle/late 90s? I can scan more magazines of the end of the 90s, no problem. Sure, bands like Das Ich used industrial elements, but the elements came from the post-industrial era, not from this neo-industrial thing of today. That's the main problem! The term Wave from New Wave is connected to the music of late 70s and to the 80s. Without a connection to this, bands can not be Wave music. Or can you see a New Wave band today? This music died in the 80s. Except a hand full of bands darkwave died in the 90s. All other stuff of today is electrogoth etc., a techno or trip hop influenced music style.

In the sense that I use darkwave and thousands other, darkwave is Gothic electronica. The meaning of Dark Wave as being part of New Wave isn't there anymore. The really funny thing about this is that the use of New Wave in Germany is not the same as the original use of New Wave in the mid-70s in the States. What you call New Wave is called post-punk in the UK, where quite a lot of it originated. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, it may well have continued in its general use until the mid-90s, but, at the same time, the specific use began in the early 90s. Fine, leave out Projekt Pitchfork, but Das Ich, Diary of Dreams and Goethes Erben were definitely part of it. I was listening Das Ich's Die Propheten this morning and that's definitely darkwave in the Gothic electronica sense. The Projekt use and the development of Ethereal Darkwave is part of the same process. Attrition's stuff is massively influential there and the 4AD connection is through Clan of Xymox. It developed in parallel, but they're now seen as part of the same style. Projekt bands (and labels like Tess Records in the mid-90s) were not using a term related to New Wave in Germany, they use the term as its come to be used. Collide and Cruxshadows are also part of this, less ethereal, closer to the likes of Das Ich. Donnacha 14:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Electrogoth is different, the vocal style is more traditionally Goth.

BTW: Coldwave is a term from France, created by the band Clair Obscur. Maybe a member of 21st Circuitry Records lived in France? --Menorrhea 14:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I think he just picked it up and liked the sound of it. It never really caught on. Donnacha 14:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

More references

[EOL Audio] [FLUXEUROPA]

1.) In Strict Confidence were never a darkwave act

2.) Officially Project Pitchfork were never called darkwave, but electrowave

3.) In Germany in the early 90s there was no gothic scene. It was a darkwave scene, a mixture of Depeche Mode fans, New Romantics, goth-lookalike Grufties, a hand full of neofolks, whatever... This scene was called "Wave-Szene" or "Schwarze Szene"

1.) POV

2.) Bordering on POV.

3.) POV.

These are facts! --Menorrhea 11:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

1.) is your POV because YOUR definition of darkwave excludes ISC.

2.) PP are known as darkwave in some places, electrowave in some places, EBM in some places, Goth in some places. To insist on one term is bordering on POV.

3.) By your definition of darkwave, not the other definitions of darkwave you refuse to accept. Your POV is not related to the factual basis of what you are presenting, but your contention that these are the only facts that are true. You continue to reject references because you don't agree with them. That's POV.

Do you want add any POV of other people? So you can delete every article in this encyclopedia, because no music style is definable with different POV. It's the same thing like goth. A few people think that Tokio Hotel or Nu Pagadi are goth bands. So you must add they to the Goth article, because these POVs are facts of the real life. Sorry for my bad english. --Menorrhea 12:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I want to add the POV of the people who've been talking about the darkwave style since the early 90s, starting with Das Ich, through bands like Goethes Erben, Deine Lakaien, Diary of Dreams, across to the States with Projekt Records and Tess Records and then on to the modern scene of Collide and Cruxshadows. You DELETED my paragraph on the modern scene. You claim darkwave isn't a genre, but ethereal is a sub-genre. You refuse to accept that, much like Gothic in the UK before 1983, a general term became an internationally used term for a specific kind of music. I'm happy to work on a compromise. You, on the other hand, have consistently refused to accept any alternative view to your own. And the stuff I'm talking about isn't my POV, it's the basis of research. I started the google topic above, I wrote material about the entire Goth/industrial scene for years and base my knowledge on interviews I've done, press releases and biogs I've received. Donnacha 13:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Without a useful source, you can write what you want. In google you can find any shit - POV shit.

...darkwave style since the early 90s, starting with Das Ich, through bands like Goethes Erben, Deine Lakaien, Diary of Dreams

But these bands sound completely different! It's not a discernible music style! Can't you understand this fact? Use the german magazine scans. So you can see that darkwave was used as an umbrella term until 1996. I'm really bored of this shit... --Menorrhea 13:54, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

These bands are no more different from each other than Bauhaus, Fields of the Nephilim and the Sisters of Mercy - arguably the three best known Goth Rock bands. There are clear commonalities betewen the four bands I mentioned - electronic beats, synth-based music and overblown gothic-style vocals. The darkwave style, as I said, is an expansive one, but it is, in general, gothic music with an electronic backing. The dividing line between it and electrogoth is difficult to define, if there even is one (some argue it's the same thing) and it also has some commonalities, if not crossovers, with elektro and dark EBM. But, once again, you stick to your POV, a clear breach of wikipedia standards. Donnacha 14:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Post an useful reference which clearly says that darkwave is a music style. All the other shit is POV. I think, you're the only one which believes that Kraftwerk sounds like VNV Nation, because they are electronic music groups... It's the same shit.

You think that darkwave is goth music with electronic elements? Yeah, maybe in England, but not on the continent. --Menorrhea 14:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no point in talking to you anymore. You clearly have no understanding of NPOV. Forget it. Donnacha 16:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW: Since the beginning of the darkwave movement there were overlaps between goth, industrial or synth pop, e. g. Alien Sex Fiend were an industrialgoth group, Bauhaus were inspired by Throbbing Gristle, Data-Bank-A sounds like The Sisters Of Mercy on an industrial trip. The german band Malaria! used sounds which you can call "industrial meets goth" (see this video from 1982), many groups were influenced by the Einstürzende Neubauten. The same thing with Pink Industry from Liverpool. So these overlaps are as old as the hills and definitely not a development of the late 80s or the early 90s. --Menorrhea 17:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as I was the person who first added the paragraph on Attrition and Clan of Xymox and have interviewed Attrition, Das Ich and a range of crossover acts. So, please, don't tell me what I already know. The point is that the Gothic crossover stuff started being called darkwave in the 90s. Donnacha 23:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

The point is that the Gothic crossover stuff started being called darkwave in the 90s.

And this is POV. Or do you have any source? IMO this what you call "darkwave" as a music style is a parallel overlap phenomenon. And you know this. People used the term for any stuff of the 80s. They didn't distiguish between "more industrial" or "more synthpop". For the most people it was electronic or it was music with guitars or it was music with electronic and guitars, that's all. And this is a cause why the term Electrowave, for example, was created in Germany. The meaning of this term was simply "electronic music within the wave movement", nothing more. In Germany Gary Numan and The Human League are "the godfathers of electrowave".

Christ, how many references do you need? This is not my POV, it's based on research. I started the alt.gothic thread (Girl in my pseudonym), I've spoken to the bands. I've linked above to two descriptions from reputable online zines - EOL and Fluxeuropa. A simple google test gives "Results 1 - 10 of about 2,390,000 for darkwave." Over two million hits for something you consider to be a dead term? Come off it. On electrowave, I suggest you mention this to an expert on electro and see what they say. They dispise what they see as the bastardisation of the term to mean nothing more than electronic. They've been particularly incensed at electroclash, but have the same opinion of electropop and electrowave as terms. The old school industrial elitists and the old school EBM fans are the same. But a wikipedia article should reflect the disagreements, not come down on one side or the other. That's NPOV. Donnacha 01:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW: The main problem of Mercer is, that he's thinking, that any dark music came from England and must be called "goth". But this is a british term for british music. There were parallel movements at the end of the 70s in the US and on the European continent. The point is that many people in the 80s didn't knew how their music could be called. At this time the term "goth" wasn't an etablished term or mostly the term was connected to rock music. --Menorrhea 01:02, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

That's your POV. He's far from unique in the view that darkwave is just a fancy term for Gothic. I tend to disagree, but the NPOV way of doing it is simply reporting on that view, which I have done with the criticism section. There is also the fact that, whatever his interpretation of the music, he is an expert. He knows what happened and when. Donnacha 01:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

A simple google test gives "Results 1 - 10 of about 2,390,000 for darkwave." Over two million hits for something you consider to be a dead term?

That's not the point. For me "useful sources" are books or scientific papers and written sources of the early 90s - and not simply google results without an information. I think we have different ideas about "useful sources". BTW: The EOL Audio description based on a hand full of wikipedia articles. --Menorrhea 10:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I think google hits actually are useful in determining the merit of having a Wikipedia article. Furthermore, most Wikipedia editors are not going to expect to find a scientific paper written about small non-mass marketed music genres / styles. Let's move this discussion in a different direction -- looking at the list of notable darkwave artists (linked on the main article), I felt that the list itself is pretty accurate. The trick is to find a way to relate those groups together, and here I'm of the opinion that calling those bands darkwave is appropriate (even if some of those bands might also fit into other genres too -- which is common with art). MCalamari 16:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Despite Menorrhea's strawman argument above (I presented the google figures as proof that the name didn't die out in the 90s as some have claimed, not as a "useful source"), I think the article is well on its way to properly presenting the two main uses of the term. I've posted on alt.gothic asking for people to help developing it. Donnacha 16:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Great idea.  :) One thing that I think the article still needs (or a link to another article should be made) is a list of music labels that focus on darkwave music. For example, I'm in the process of writing a Prikosnovenie article (which will preceed an article on Collection D'Arnell Andrea), but these future label articles really do need an informative and well designed "darkwave" article. I'm pretty happy with that is here now, as I feel it conveys the main point and will help to educate readers. MCalamari 20:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Other than Projekt, I can't think of any labels that are even close to exclusively darkwave. Accession has some, ditto Metropolis, but they (and most other labels in the scene) cover industrial, goth, EBM, elektro, futurepop, synthpop and other related styles. Donnacha 22:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Accession is a really appropriate fit in my mind. Prikosnovenie is a fair fit -- sure half the label if "fairy music", but as much as many people argue that darkwave is designed to promote a dark atmosphere, I've felt that the genre is also promotes somber unearthly imagery. Trisol is another good example of a darkwave label. Middle Pillar is an excellent example of an American darkwave label (and The Machine in the Garden is already included in some of the versions of the articles I've seen around). Bear in mind that currently the article implies that neo-classical is tied to darkwave via the ethereal wave sub genre, which really opens the doors for a number of small German labels to appropriately label themselves as darkwave. The problem is that neo-classical, medieval, and heavenly voices are still largely dominanted by European artists <-- which I personally disagree with Menorrhea's opinion that there has been a brainless expansion of the term. In any event, the point of this article is to point people to bands, artists, labels, and festivals that are identified as "darkwave". MCalamari 22:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I forgot about Middle Pillar Presents - yes, they started out exclusively doing ethereal and dark ambient type stuff (though, I see they're releasing trad goth now with The Empire Hideous). I agree about neo-classical (or, at least, a certain section of it) - In The Nursery and Die Form clearly did some neo-classical stuff. Italy's Palace of Worms do quite a bit in the medieval ethereal vein. I'm a little out of date with the current scene, as I quit doing reviews (and getting lots of free CDs) three years ago. Donnacha 22:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't really have a problem with this article, because i agree that there are overlaps between different 80s music genres. But i definitely disagree that darkwave is a modern music genre. That's unlogical to me. I can't understand this brainless expasion of the term, sorry. --Menorrhea 22:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, you can't "disagree" with something that's patently true. Over two million google hits prove it. Whether or not you find it illogical is beside the fact, that's your POV and it's irrelevant to the conversation. You're no different to those who reject the modern use of the term industrial, which has been prevalent since '92. I understand their point of view, but it's just that, the reality is that gothic, industrial and darkwave are now top level genre names in the scene. Donnacha 22:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Google tests

Please, before reading the following, keep in your minds that I do not "hate" computers, the internet, Google, search engines, web-based music-zines and Wikipedia, indeed I actually love all this.

I believe that most of the web content (99 %, arguably) is thrash. I am referring to the huge number of not-relevant-to-the-sought-subject results that almost every search engine returns after any query. So we ask Google: how many web pages do include the word Darkwave?, but I'm sure that none will ever check all those pages, so we get faked and unuseful results.Dr. Who 00:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you know what a strawman argument is? The google results prove my contention that the term continues to be widely used. The number of results from google is the proof, the content doesn't matter. I never argued any different. Donnacha 09:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Criticism section

Hey Mr number, I don't want to fall foul of the 3RR, so please post in here. Please stop adding criticism of the criticism in the Criticism section (wow, that's a mouthful). It's properly cited and accurate. I don't think Mick is right, but the whole piece above lays out the style. Donnacha 21:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

UK reference

Dark Wave 80 from 2004

ehm

I found various "darkwave" bands( The Crüxshadows , Blutengel , Tristesse De La Lune )had been labeld "Electropop"(one was even called Eurodance, i mean what the hell!) even if its not 100% right according to some(but for me synthmusic with a gothic style is perfectly prefectly well called darkwave) i think darkwave fits those bands much better than Electropop (and especially eurodance o.-) Kitten!meow 20:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Blutengel, Tristesse de la Lune and newer The Crüxshadows aren't Dark Wave music. Wave music has no Techno influence. Dark Wave is typical 80s music and related to New Wave. --Diluvien 17:48, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 23:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The Cure = dark wave?

There seems to be a lot of mention of The Cure when referring to dark wave, yet there is absolutely no mention of the genre (not even in the genre list) on The Cure's article. Is there something I'm missing here? Poiuyt Man ^talk 22:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Not here. Missing in the Cure article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.41.31 (talk) 09:36, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

FYI... 87.122.41.31 is User:Breathtaker a banned sockpuppeteer.--Dr who1975 (talk) 19:17, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

They're not darkwave. The proper terms for their darker music are post-punk and gothic rock. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)