Talk:Closeburn Castle

place of origin

The Kirkpatricks are apart of the Colquhoun clan. Colquhoun land holdings are far away around Loch Lomond in East Scotland. Does anyone know if the Kirkpatricks were originally from Dumfries or Colquhoun area on the west bank of Loch Lomond? Any help will be greatly appretiated. --ProdigySportsman 02:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC) Kirkpatrick and therefore Colquhoun clan.

The Kirkpatricks are a clan of their own. They are not a part of Clan Colquhoun. The very first Colquhouns were styled as 'de Kilpatrick' when they first appeared in written record. I think that is the only 'connection'.--Celtus (talk) 09:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the wiki page that you created, I have never seen Kirkpatrick listed as its own clan. See Scottish Clans, Scotsclans.com, and Clans.org.uk. This comports with every book I've ever read on the matter. We do not even have our own tartan. (See Tartan Search Result for Kirkpatrick). There is one site that lists Kirkpatrick as an officially registered clan (ElectricScotland), however I'm not able to find conformation for the lsiting. This is in contrast to the many many sites that list Kirkpatrick, not as a clan but as a sept under Colquhoun. Now, I'd love for the Clan Kirkpatrick to exist and would gladly give up my Colquhoun tartan kilt for a Kirkpatrick tartan. But unless Kirkpatrick is registered with and recognized by the Court of the Lord Lyon as a chiefless clan, there is not enough evidence to demonstrate the existence of a Kirkpatrick Clan, as much as I wish it were the case. Kirkpatrick (talk) 13:45, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

See reply at Talk:Clan Kirkpatrick.--Celtus (talk) 06:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

In Memoir Respecting the Family of Kirkpatrick of Closeburn [Kirkpatrick, Richard. 1858. p. 2-4], the author states, "It appears certain that the family of Kirkpatrick of Closeburn possessed estates in Nithsdale and Annandale as early as the 8th century". The names Kilpatrick and Kirkpatricks are often used interchangeably; "Kil" and "Kirk" are said to have the same meaning. In his Records of the Closeburn Kirkpatricks (1953), Charles Kirkpatrick claimed,

“The name of Kirkpatrick or Kilpatrick, seems to be associated with the early Brito-Celtic churches which were founded in the fifth century by St. Patrick in the south west of Scotland, from the Clyde to the ::Solway Firth. [Articles by the Rev. J. W. Hewison D.D.]

Antiquarians explain that the word "Kil" or "Ceall" first meant a missioners cell, then a chapel with its consecrated ceinture, increasing afterwards to mean a small community; and the term "Cella Patricii" ::was applied to the religious communities thus formed by St. Patrick.

The Gaelic "Gilla" or "Gilli", meaning “servant”, came to indicate the officials or lay holders in these churches, and we early find the name Gilpatrick, more particularly in Galloway. It has been suggested ::that "Kil" began to change to "Kirk" after the original church of St. Ninian at Whithorn became subordinate to York and English officials, some time after the eighth century, but variations of the name range ::from its northern limit Dumbarton, with the churches of Kirkpatrick, or Kilpatrick on the Clyde, to Kirkpatrick Durham and Kirkpatrick Irongray in Galloway. Then, in Nithsdale there are the old farms of ::Kilpatrick and the lands of Kirkpatrick in Closeburn.

And while it is true that Kirkpatrick/Kilpatrick is considered a sept of clan Colquhoun, Kirkpatrick/Kilpatrick is also considered a sept of clan Douglas. The Closeburn family (because of its proximity to the seat of Douglas power) was more likely to have been adherents of the Douglas lords. Again, in Memoir Respecting the Family of Kirkpatrick of Closeburn, Richard Kirkpatrick claims the Closeburn branch of the family descended from Ivone (who married a daughter of Robert Bruce and was confirmed in his lands of Closeburn in 1232 by Alexander II, as has been stated in the main page article) and that a younger brother of Ivone, Humphrey, obtained the lands of Colquhoun, from Maldwin Earl of Lenox (also in the reign of Alexander II). The son of Humprey took the name of Colquhoun from the lands and a later descendent married the heiress of Luss. The Colquhouns of Luss still claim to belong to the family of Kirkpatrick, so it makes more sense to claim Colquhoun is a sept of Kirkpatrick (except for the fact that "Kirkpatrick" currently has no standing as a clan). Hweha (talk) 03:59, 2 May 2012 (UTC)hweha

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