Talk:Charlie Moore (basketball)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Buttons to Push Buttons (talk · contribs) 02:29, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Got about an hour now, hopefully I can get it done by then, but if not I'll be able to finish this up tomorrow. Initial impressions are that it's close, but definitely a few surface issues that'll need some work. Nothing too major to worry about, however, so should be alright! Buttons to Push Buttons (talk | contribs) 02:29, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Early life

• Ref "Boys Basketball Class 3A State Final Results — 2012-13" doesn't really verify that he was a backup to Garrett specifically... Would be nice to combine it with a ref that mentions his role that season, if possible?
  • Is this OK.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:00, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
• "As a sophomore, he was a starter and one of three double digit scorers with 12 points for Morgan Park in both the state semifinals against Orr Academy High School and the championship game against Lincoln High School." this phrasing feels a bit awkward, as it's combining two identical facts (12 points, three double digit scorers) across two separate games.
  • Reworded.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:57, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
• It also seems weird to mention that Morgan Park made the championship game, but not how they did -- looks like they were state 3A champions for the season from that ref, right?
  • Doesn't the sentence before cover this.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:08, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
    • Doh, yes, it does. Perhaps marginally unclear but honestly, yeah, it's fine. Buttons to Push Buttons (talk | contribs) 03:02, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
• "... to lead Morgan Park to a third place finish ..." lead is a word to watch, and without a reliable, third party source to quote, should be avoided.
  • Hopefully better.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:50, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
• Always so tricky to deal with recruit rankings, as they change so much. I know it's a pain, but the given refs no longer mention that he was 57th ranked at the time, unfortunately -- I'd look through the archives to see if those work for it. Also it needs to mention which service ranked him 57th (I'm guessing it was ESPN? But not sure), as it needs attribution for WP:NPOV.
  • swapped ref--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:50, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
• "He considered offers from Callifornia, ..." Typo of California
  • Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:52, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
• "Moore was regarded ..." By who? Needs attribution to author of that article. "X of Y.com said ..."
  • handled-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:18, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
• Did Morgan Park go to the state tournament his senior year? Seems strange we mention how they did for his other three years of high school, but hey, if they didn't make it that year then there's nothing to mention :)
  • Clarified.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:11, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

College career

• "Moore broke Shareef Abdur-Rahim's 1995 single-game freshman scoring record ..." needs mentioning that this is a school record, otherwise it's ambiguous, could easily be read by a layman as being an NCAA D1 record
  • Done.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:23, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
• "As a freshman, Moore who was the only player to start all 34 games led Cal in assists and steals, ..." this needs a copyedit. "Moore was," no who. There's also the same ambiguity over qualifying being the only player to start all 34 games -- could be read as all D1. Would suggest: "As a freshman, Moore was the only player to start all 34 games for Cal, and led [the team/the school/the Bears/whatever else] in assists and steals, ..."
  • done-— Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 06:42, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
• "Subsequently, (with Rabb entering the 2017 NBA draft and Jabari Bird graduating) Moore transferred to Kansas." either no comma, or no parentheses (and with an extra comma after graduating). Would suggest the latter, personally
  • Thx. good catch.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:46, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
• "which had guards Devon Dotson, Marcus Garrett, Ochai Agbaji and Quentin Grimes." needs a ref. Basketball-Ref season page for the Jayhawks should cover this, I expect
  • How do I find college basketball season pages. I see https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/colleges.cgi?college=kansas.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:51, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
  • (ec)I found https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/kansas/2019.html.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:12, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

  Ah, sorry -- for some reason their College Bball stuff is separated out to Sports-Reference.com, I just use Bball-Ref as shorthand. There's a link to it in the header bar (along with all their other partner sites), but it's easily missed :) From there, each school has their own overview page; here's Kansas's. Leftmost column links to the page you'll need. Buttons to Push Buttons (talk | contribs) 01:11, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

• "which may have been why ..." speculation. I think we can leave it implied, though, just change it to "and" and it's completely fine.
  • Made a change.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:22, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
• Not sure we need to mention the waiver at the end of the second paragraph and the beginning of the third... Reads as repetitive. I think the latter should suffice?
  • Done.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:40, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
• "1987-88" WP:DASH
  • thx.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:42, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
• "The following season for the 2020–21 DePaul Blue Demons, ..." I guess this is personal taste, but I personally would pipe link "The following season" to that article, as it reads a little more cleanly to me, and it would help with the repetition of 2020–21 in the sentence, too. But if you want to keep it as is that's completely fine too, not gonna insist :)
  • Fixed another way.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:44, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
• "With the COVID rule for additional eligibility ..." I think this needs either rephrasing or wikilinking away, or both -- a bit unclear to the untrained reader at the moment. I'd probably go with something like "With the NCAA having granted an additional year of eligibility to all players due to the COVID-19 pandemic, ..." while piping a link to 2020–21 NCAA Division I men's basketball season#COVID-19 pandemic-related somewhere, really remove all that ambiguity. And probably needs a source -- the linked page has one, or you could easily find a secondary source if you wanted to limit reliance on primary sources. (Certainly not an issue if you do reuse that one, though.)
  • Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:35, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• What a pain... "Miami dominates No. 2 seed Auburn 79-61 to reach Sweet 16" says he got seven rebounds, not the nine our prose says, but the box score linked on that page clearly says it is nine. Frustrating. I'd be inclined to also link to the box score, I suppose? Not really sure what the best plan of action is, tbh. I'll look into this tomorrow.
  • Linked to box score.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:29, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• "Sweet Sixteen" is currently capitalised, but "elite eight" is not in either of its uses. Needs consistency one way or the other; I would capitalise, personally, but your call.
  • Caps.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:35, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• "Still at the United Center for the elite eight round," reads a little awkwardly to me. "Playing again at the United Center ..." perhaps? Not totally sold on that either tbh.
  • Ok.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
• "... that Moore had previously played for." is clunky too. ", one of Moore's previous teams."?
  • Ok.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
• "The Jayhawk" typo, needs pluralising.
  • Good eye.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:43, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• "led by Moore's former teammate Agbaji." same problem as earlier, a word to avoid.
  • OK.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:41, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• It feels strange ending this section on another team's achievements. Might I suggest adding the stats listed in this article? Leading the team in assists & steals warrants mentioning I think.
  • Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:19, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
• May or may not be worth doing a quick summary of his college stats, in a similar manner. Finishing with 1700 points across all four schools seems noteworthy, for example.
  • I've done a lot of players at about this stage and have never included career totals in the text like that to my recollection unless they had set some sort of record.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 11:19, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
    • Fair enough, that's a perfectly reasonable approach to take. And as the section now ends on his season stats rather than Kansas, I think it's fine. Buttons to Push Buttons (talk | contribs) 03:02, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

And that's your lot! In pretty good shape all in all. The prose needs a fine-toothed comb, but is broadly there. One small MOS pickup: the images need alt text, to help with accessibility for vision-impaired users, or those using screen readers. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Alternative text for images has tips on the best way to tackle this. All references passed verification, and just a couple of places where I think adding refs would be beneficial. There is occasional reliance on non-independent sources, but they're never used for POV claims and aren't relied upon for conveying notability, so I see no issue. No copyvio issues in the text from what I could see, and the detector tool concurs, with just 9.9% similarity.

• Alt added. All done.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:42, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I've always found the trickiest thing with sports biographies is figuring out how deep to go for the various parts of their career, particularly with regards to WP:RECENTISM. I do wonder if long-term that the college section may end up being too long and unnecessarily detailed, but for this stage of his life & career, I think it's completely fine – an appropriate level of depth for what's brought him notability to date. And speculating that it may need changing later down the road is basically just WP:CRYSTAL, so I think we're all good. I do wonder if it's worth including a table of his career statistics, though -- see, for example, GA-class Jordan Poole#Career statistics. If he only played one season in D1 then I can see not bothering, but I can see the value in including one for a guy who played five seasons. (If you do, I think the table needs a ref to his basketball-ref page (or whatever), even though Poole's actually lacks one. See e.g. the way it's done for FA-class Magic Johnson#NBA career statistics.)

No real NPOV issues, just a few instances of puffery and attribution needed. Clearly in a stable state, particularly as it's the offseason and this stage of his career's just drawn to a close. Images have appropriate licenses – one of your own (nice!) and the other confirmed via Flickrbot, so absolutely no issues.

That's all six sections of the criteria covered. Handle all that and I'll happily grant this a pass -- and it really shouldn't need too much effort to sort it all out, I don't think. Cheers! Buttons to Push Buttons (talk | contribs) 04:12, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger: Alright, been through your changes, and I'm happy with the article in its new state! I did a little more light copyediting just to get everything really tuned up, and I saw you asking for help over at WT:CHOOPS with regards to the career stats section; that kind of thing's in my wheelhouse, so I've gone and added it myself, since it was only marginally non-compliant at that point.

One final note: with the draft having now happened, it's now technically out of date (seems he signed with Detroit?) but like hell am I gonna ding it on that basis -- it's not your fault I was slow to jump on doing the career stats table, and it was up to date at the time you asked for help with that. Really won't take much more than a sentence to get it back up to date, anyway, and I'll go over any such changes with the same rigour (or even just do it myself in a couple days, if needs be). So with that said, I'm happy to pass this as a GA, as I believe it meets all the criteria. Congrats! Buttons to Push Buttons (talk | contribs) 03:02, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

User:Buttons to Push Buttons, thanks for cleaning things up. I bet you didn't know this is my third Moore WP:GA (E'Twaun Moore though not the actual page creator and More Demi Moore).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:56, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Haha, very nice! Deliberate or just where your interests happened to take you? Buttons to Push Buttons (talk | contribs) 17:23, 4 July 2022 (UTC)