Talk:Champions (role-playing game)/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Is this a Neutral article?

Edits to correct neutrality and other issues are in progress on my sandbox. User:Markspace/sandbox E.T.A is two months. Markspace 05:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I do not believe that this article is in line with Wikipedia requirements for a neutral point of view. I would rewrite this, but I do not play Champions. I numbercrunch too much to take less than 4 hours to make a character, so I go for simplicity. I would rather leave it to the people that know it best. I do feel that this needs serious attention if it is to be kept in Wikipedia.

Specifically in the history and revisions section ther eare some issues I have

The Champions rules have remained essentially unchanged from the original 1981 edition, albeit it is now much more detailed and expanded. No other popular role-playing system has endured so long without a major revision. The reason given is generally that the system is extremely flexible for character generation and combat, and is very well balanced. Its very endurance has given it the benefit of years of play-testing.

This paragraph contains what Wikipedia refers to as Weasle Words. The reason given is generally is one of the weasel phrases which is used to exempt from need for citation of an opinion. If controversy exists, that is ok, citing both sides and where the arguments are represented, but with no citation, this needs to be removed.

In comparison to some game systems, Champions (and the Hero System overall) can seem byzantine and open-ended. However, its enduring fandom testifies to its robustness and elegance.

No citation and full of review/judgement of the system should automatically flag this as non-neutral.Slavlin 06:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

This may be, though much of the information in this section comes from discussion boards, both at Hero Games' own site and (for most of the criticism) elsewhere. In fact, most of the controversy over the Hero System's complexity (too much math vs less than D20) is anecdotal. I personally am not sure how to cite such sources. BobGreenwade 20:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ol' Slavlin may have some points. The article could be edited up a bit. "No other popular role-playing system has endured so long without a major revision" sounds pretty editorial to me. We should clean up some of the fanboyism in the article. It may not be apparent to us, but there seems to be a bit of it in there. I'm really busy right now, so I'm going to let this sit a bit, but if no one takes it in a month or so I'll try to sit down and tackle it. -- Markspace 06:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC) (Gojira on the Hero boards.)

Month plus is gone. I'll add a note to the Hero boards asking for help editing. Some of the people who write for Hero Games hang out there, so I hope to get some actual published authors to help out. Editing to start soonish. -- Markspace 05:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC) (Gojira on the Hero boards.)

Champions system vs. other systems

Is a discussion on the relative "realism" of the Champions system vs. other systems relevant to this article? I know many people who tried to codify Champions statistics to real world verifiable things such as lifting power, reflexes and such. They were all fairly inaccurate. I believe Champions' problem in this regard is that the strength system must cover a far wider range of capability than, say, the strength of a D&D character.

Also, the comparisons between Champions and other game systems strike me as a little biased. I think a more balanced discussion about the merits of different game systems might be in order. Champions benefits from a system that allows more to be done with a character at the expense of extra complexity. It takes forever to run a complex combat, for example. D&D has the advantage of simplicity and speed, sacrificing flexibility. There is no way, for example, to differentiate between a miss because somebody dodged and a “miss” that simply pinged off armour.

As long as your comments can be backed-up by sources, it should be fine. But don't give a straight-up review of the system. That is strictly taboo on Wikipedia. But comparisons are relavant and useful. — Frecklefoot | Talk June 28, 2005 16:52 (UTC)

On the realism issue, I think you are correct. Hero System really is not more real than any other system. It is more *detailed*, as you suggest, than other systems such as D20. With 7 primary stats and 5 derived ones, there's a lot more goin' on than DnD. Whether that's an advantage depends on your perspective. On the comparisons, I think you are ok here too. Anything to make the article less biased is probably a good idea. (Not that I think it is overtly biased as is, just that any slight biased should be edited out.) I say--your call. (Gojira from the Hero boards).

Actually there are 8 primary Characteristics (STR, DEX, CON, BODY, INT, EGO, PRE, and COM) and 6 derived (PD, ED, SPD, REC, END, and STUN). But otherwise I agree. — BobGreenwade 20:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, ever since I lost those digits in an industrial accident I don't count so good. :-P --Gojira

I think someone is going a bit over-board if they expect "realism" out of a Super-hero Role-playing game. Regardless of his "realism" aspect, the game mechanics are extremely balanced so the points it cost to purchase one type of power yields the same end result numerically as using to purchase another power or skill. In fact, the powers and skills built in Champions are for the numerical output and not the source, origin, SFX, etc. of the powers themselves. The Hero System (based on Champions) is quite unlike the often bell-curved character-generation systems of some older dice-based games. The fate of dice-rolling is taken out of the system in favor of the character conception of an individual player. This is more of a game aimed at the Game Master helping players explore their characters than going into a dungeon and defeating a pre-arranged scenario (at least my example is related to every Champions gaming situation that I have ever been involved with).

Is it less "realistic" to cut fate out of the character-generation process? Yes. Do I want realism getting in the way of my conception of a super-hero in a game? No.WereTech (talk) 02:52, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Champions unchanged?

I haven't played Champions since 4th edition, but 2nd, 3rd, and 4th each had real differences, even if they were subtle.

And surely Call of Cthulhu has mechanics as unchanged -- if not less so -- than Champions/Hero?

Don't forget that Champions was converted to as completely new rules system called 'Fuzion' during a portion of its history. At this time the 'Hero System' rules were not used for the Champions licensed titles.

I am sad to hear that went on. I bought the original Champions books and the first combined Champions hardback. Seeing as the Hero System came from Champions, it is hard to imagine that someone would have taken the core-mechanics that made the game popular, but then again that is exactly what they did with Champions Online . The perfect balance of the original Champions system still is the best RPG mechanics that I have ever seen. They are very math-heavy and combat can take a while, but it is a beautiful system that works so well to remain true to the genre of its origin.WereTech (talk) 02:58, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

References

Definately need rewrite

I agree this article needs an overhaul. It seems very opinionated and not particularly factual. I Have been playing Champions in one form or another for over 20 years, so I'd be interested to consult for a rewrite. --Andacar

The article is now neutral

Unless someone disagrees, I'm going to remove the nomination for the discussion of the article's neutrality. I've deleted most of the fanboy, "opinion" stuff. If I missed anything, let me know, or feel free to fix the article further. Rray 13:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Comparison between Champions and CoH

Haven't played this in many, many years, but was curious if someone knowledgeable could contribute a brief comment to the article regarding if/how Champions served as inspiration for City of Heroes (or not, since I'm unfamiliar with if there's a link). If there is, I think most people reading the CoH article would be curious to note there was a predecessor; if not then it's probably worth noting in this one. Old64mb 23:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Other than the obvious connection of having a roleplaying game with a superhero theme, I'd say that Champions' influence on CoH is minimal. We'd really want to include an authoritative source drawing any comparison anyway. Otherwise it would just be original research. Rray 00:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed on the original research part, but I've got to believe that someone somewhere wrote something about the two. Could be entirely wrong. Might even look for it myself. Old64mb 02:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The two major points of similarity that I recall are that first, in CoH's original conception, it was going to use a system similar to Champions where anyone could buy any power. Second, the way you can rebuild your character with different powers in Champions is referred to as a "Radiation Accident." In City of Heroes, the way you respecify your character to re-choose his powers is, in-game, to get irradiated while saving a nuclear reactor. Now someone just has to find somewhere source-worthy to quote about it. —Robotech_Master (talk) 15:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Marvel & "superhero"?

I've heard that in the early days of Champions, they took some heat from Marvel and were forced to remove Marvel's trademarked word "superhero" from their cover. Is this true or not, and if so, it seems like it would be good to mention in the article. —Robotech_Master (talk) 15:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The Trademark, jointly held by DC and Marvel, is the phrase "Super Hero." I'm not aware of any lawsuit to this effect; I think it's an urban legend, derived from some other, similar suit. BobGreenwade (talk) 16:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The original books call it "the Super-Hero Role-playing Game". I think by the time the first hardback came out it was changed to "The Super Role-playing Game". Marvel Comics and DC Comics are the two main owners of the term "super-hero".

"Nevertheless, variations on the term "Super Hero" are jointly claimed by DC Comics and Marvel Comics as trademarks in the United States. Registrations of "Super Hero" marks have been maintained by DC and Marvel since the 1960s.[9] (U.S. Trademark Serial Nos. 72243225 and 73222079, among others)."

I have no reference to a lawsuit in regards to Champions, but it is clear that term "super-hero" was removed. WereTech (talk) 03:07, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

References

Champions computer game -> Champions Online?

What is the specific developmental connection from the 1992 Champions computer game and Champions Online? Everything that's been said on the CO website has indicated that the latter is being built from the ground up, with no connection to the former other than the IP. BobGreenwade (talk) 16:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Concur. The source is hardly WP:RS. MARussellPESE (talk) 12:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The whole extended discussion lacks sources and, especially, relevance. Who give a damn about it's resolution on the Mac? I don't cut anon editors a lot of slack for unverifiable fluff. MARussellPESE (talk) 23:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Stripping your vandalism. You keep making assumptions that there is no connection when it is the same source material, intended multiplayer, quests, and for the PC. Just because development studios have changed hands over the years does not mean the origin of this product as a multiplayer PC game changed. All the concepts are the same with just fancier technology. Please cite reference demonstrating specifically how this game is "completely different" than the Steve Petersen game. Even if Crytpic came up with an idea to translate Champions on their own, the rights to a computer version of the game had to be negotiated since they were already owned by Hero Software which again, points back to Steve Petersen's game as the original idea. (I don't cut presumed know it alls too much slack these days. I personally followed the original property during the development phase and had online conversations with Steve on several occasions. If you think you know otherwise, please provide citations demonstrating how this property is "completely different" and not based on translating the Champions pen and paper RPG to a PC computer game which intended to have multiplayer.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.45.113 (talk) 06:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Well seen as how Cryptic is now the owner of Champions as a whole and they took up development of this game after having their previous project, Marvel Universe Online, canceled, I think it would be much more accurate to say that this game is completely independent of the other Champions game than to say it's the same game. Cryptic didn't think "Let's take up this canceled project for a Champions single player game and continue it," they thought, "We should continue our work on Marvel Online by making a Champions MMO. After all, a lot of us are Champions fans here at Cryptic and we think it would be a good fit for an MMO." You can check the Game Informer article for that. This is like saying Batman Begins is obviously the same movie as the canceled Batman: DarKnight, just with fancier technology.The Iron Rooster (talk) 23:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

It is pretty clear that Cryptic had started work to a Marvel Universe Online game. There is reference to the Marvel Universe Online being halted in development and the Champions IP being slapped overtop of the work that was already done for Marvel Universe Online.

In fact, the Hero System - the core game-play mechanics of Champions, is not part of Champions Online. Rather Champions Online retains the mechanics of the original Marvel Universe Online game with Champions "signature characters" added into the game to make it Champions-related. Anyone that is familiar with the original Champions system knew full-well that Champions Online was not Champions by any stretch of the term; Champions was known for it's core game mechanics and not the "signature characters". The character creator alone is enough to make the point clear. The fact is that most of the people that I have known that have played the game consider the "signature characters" to be jokes about how not to make characters (example Fox Bat with all his powers in an obvious, accessible focus with horrendous activation rolls.)

When it comes down to it, Cryptic threw the baby out and kept the bathwater when it comes to Champions Online - but that is pretty clearly an opinion.WereTech (talk) 03:28, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

References

Cryptic Studios owns the Champions license - lock, stock and barrel

Should mention that Cryptic owns Champions now. JAF1970 (talk) 17:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

They own the Champions title, and the Champions Universe IP. That much, I think, can be noted. I'd say to check with the "horse's mouth" to see if they own anything more than that before saying so.BobGreenwade (talk) 16:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

From what I understand, they purchased the entire Champions IP, according to 1Up. JAF1970 (talk) 15:38, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

“ Cryptic Studios also announced today that it has acquired the Champions intellectual property (IP) from Hero Games. ”

So, here's the deal - Champions is owned by Cryptic now. The entire IP. However, they turned around and gave publishing rights of the 6th ed books to Hero Games (and just the 6th ed for now, though there's no reason to believe Cryptic won't continue to allow Hero to write the books.) So Hero Games is publishing the books, but Cryptic owns them. They did this because of the bruhaha with Marvel Universe Online - Cryptic is making sure they don't have to deal with people interfering with their artistic version.

Press release JAF1970 (talk) 15:40, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

PS. Oh, and the 6th ed. comes out in 2009, and will allow Champions Online players to adapt their online PCs to the pen-and-paper version. Ah, corporate synergy. :p JAF1970 (talk) 15:49, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

It's worth noting (at least here; possibly not in the article) that the sale only includes the Champions-related portion of the Hero Universe. DOJ still owns the Star Hero, Fantasy Hero, and historical portions of the timeline -- and it is the same timeline, with the same alien races, magical beings, and so forth (or at least it was before the sale, and nothing's been said since then to the contrary). BobGreenwade (talk) 16:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it does have reverberations throughout the rest of the Hero games, since the new Hero rules will be changed to be adaptive towards the MMO. It's no minor thing. JAF1970 (talk) 18:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Not true. The Hero System Sixth Edition rules are now out and the rules were not changed to be "adaptive towards the MMO," whatever that means. There will be a separate book for a Champions MMO RPG that will show how to create Champions Online powers using the Hero System rules. The RPG rules aren't going to match the MMO and the MMO rules don't match the Hero System rules. Rigel1 (talk) 15:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

It appears that Cryptic only bought the Champions signature characters and environment and not the Hero System mechanics.WereTech (talk) 03:39, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Four-color

This phrase is used to describe the world but I don't understand what it means. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 08:29, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

It is a reference to the four color printing method of classic comic books. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Color When you don't understand a reference, do a tad of looking, next time!