Talk:Caucasian Albania/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Caucasian Albania. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

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Archive 5

As I've noted in the edit history, "Caucasian Albania" gets 643 Google hits, Aghbania gets 137 and Alwania gets only 15. Nikola 07:08, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I removed the statement about the Kish church. It was originally thought to be very ancient, but after further study the current church was dated to the twelfth century. The site has been in use since 3000 B.C., but that doesn't make it an ancient church, just a medieval church on an ancient site. Isomorphic 18:58, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

About invention of Albanian Alphabet

I have added a refference to Moses Kalankaytuk about invention of Albanian alphabet by Mesrob Mashtots:

According to Moses Kalankaytuk, the Albanian alphabet was invented by Mesrob Mashdots, an Armenian monk, theologian and linguist (see Moses Kalankaytuk, "The History of Aluank", I, 27 and III, 24).

I also added the external link to the book "The History of Aluank" by Moses Kalankaytuk: Movses Kalankatuatsi. "The History of Aluank" (http://www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/kagantv/index.html). Translated from old Armenian (Grabar) by Sh.V.Smbatian, Yerevan, 1984 (In Russian).

All known facts should be mentioned, if you affraid...

Regards, Rovoam 05:38, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Artsakh and Albania

Yes, it is true - Artsakh was part of Albania! But it is also true that before it was part of Armenia and before - even Urartu.

Other editors: Please, see this post from Nagorno-Karabakh talkpage in which I give succint info and also bring maps of ancient Urartu to prove falseness of Rovoam's allegations. Also look at this post for background info on Rovoam's intentions. This user's recent actions are currently investigated by ArbCom, for details, please see here--Tabib 09:30, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

Tabib, one of the map of Urartu actually covers the area of Karabakh during VIII c. BC, isn't it? It seems to me it covers even much bigger area... Take your glasses and see for yourself:

And please remember - you published this map, not me!

And another thought. Do you think all these maps of Urartu are correct? Don't you know or assume, that those maps are just a reconstruction and very rough estimate? Have you ever asked yourself when people invented the first map? Do we have any Urartian or Assyrian ancient maps? Think about all of these issues! Then you'll understand, how weak your arguments are!

Rovoam 00:39, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What Albanians have in Artsakh? - There are no traces of their presence!

Latest comment: 18 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Tabib! I have a question for you. There are a lot of Christians churches and other monuments in Artsakh, and those monuments are VERY old (V c, X c, etc). And there are just few Muslim monuments, and all of them are much younger (the oldest was built on XVIII century). How do you explain this?

You may say, perhaps, that those ancient Christians monuments were built by Albanians, not by Armenians. But how you explain Armenian inscriptions on ALL of these ancient monuments? Most of these inscriptions were done at the time, when those monuments were first built. For example, in Gandzasar monastery there are Armenian inscriptions, which were made by the founder of the place (by the prince Hasan Jalalyan), i.e. they are dated XIII century. If builders were Albanians, why don't we see some Albanians inscriptions (in addition or instead of Armenians)? - However, there are thousands of Armenians inscriptions everywhere in Karabakh and none of Albanians. Why? How would you expalin this?! At least to yourself? Or you don't care about actual facts, do you?! Rovoam 00:24, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Those ancient Christians monuments were build by the Caucasian Albanians, back then they were among the first Christians. The Caucasian Albanian Kick Church dates back to the first century. Its the oldest Christian Church in the Caucasus and among the oldest in the world.

I second that, if you look at what date those monument were build you would find out that most date back to AD 550. Thats because during that time Albanian meliks were overthrow and their role of Christianity weakened in the country the prayers were conducted in Armenian language in the churches, Albanian language was oppressed and led out. Next time do some research of your own please. Baku87 19:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)Baku87

The Albanian language was not "oppressed", they people assimilated, there is a difference. The Albanian Church is not the oldest state church, the Armenian Apostolic Church pre dates the Albanian church by atleast 50 years.--Moosh88 01:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Rovoam’s provocative vandalism and POV pushing

Dear fellow editors,

Rovoam deliberately attempts to remove a paragraph in the page which goes as follows: “…Another historical part of Albania, Artsakh (present-day Nagorno-Karabakh), is presently occupied by Armenian military forces. Armenian historians claim that Artsakh has always been a part of Armenia...”. This paragraph was written long ago by third party editors not involved in present dispute and simply states a commonly known historical fact that Artsakh was part of ancient state of Caucasus Albania. Whereas I can agree to a different formulation of the paragraph, I cannot close my eyes to Rovoam’s flagrant POV pushing aimed at erasing from this page of the mentioning of Artsakh being part of Caucasus Albania.

Rovoam first started his disruptive actions and aggressive POV pushing in Nagorno-Karabakh page. His edits are characterized by extreme degree of maliciousness, blatant and repeated manipulation with the facts and intentional confusion of public opinion. His case is being currently considered by ArbCom and I am confident that this person will definitely be banned for his personal attacks and dishonest behavior.

During our month-long and more than 200 page-long discussions (or disputes, to be more precise) within the Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh the question of Artsakh and its relationship to Caucasus Albania has been extensively discussed and addressed. For detailed info please see primarily, Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Artsakh_province_of_Caucasian_Albania; Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Albanian_province_of_Artsakh_and_Armenian_claims; Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Devil.92s_advocacy_and_the_irrefutable_facts Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Maps_comment as well as the rest of the discussion.

Also, please see the map of Urartu with Rovoams “arguments” posted above. Rovoam, acting once again in his blatant and malicious style of arguing (softest terming I could find to depict what he’s doing now), intentionally LIES to you all, alleging that this map shows present-day Karabakh area within the borders of Urartu. The above mentioned map of Urartu, originally posted by me (see, [1]) and now reposted by Rovoam actually disproves his allegations and clearly shows that even in its widest borders, Urartu (which btw was not an Armenian state at all) did not comprise the territory of present day Karabakh. The territory of present-day Karabakh is situated farther to the east from the borders shown in the map. Rovoam knows well that most of you are not aware of the geographical location of Karabakh and therefore he can say even the most nonsense thing and still hope that he will not be exposed. This is an outrageous and unprecedented conduct, when someone denies the facts at hand, trying to confuse other less informed editors and shamelessly calls his opponent to “take [his] glasses and see for [himself]”, instead of following his own advice!…

Rovoam also touched upon Armenian inscriptions on Albanian monuments to substantiate his senseless and already disproved allegations that “there is no traces of their presence”. In this regard I would also call other editors to look at earlier discussions regarding the subjugation of Albanian church to Armenian church following the Arab invasion in VIII c. and subsequent assimilation of the Caucasus Albanians by Armenians on the one hand and Turks (present-day Azeris) on the other. Here are the relevant posts from earlier discussions which touched upon this issue: Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Historical_fact:_subjugation_of_Albanian_church_to_the_Armenian_under_Arabs; [[2]] as well as previous post on Artsakh and Albania and the rest of the discussion.

If Rovoam thinks he will get along with his tricks, he is deeply mistaken because, as in previous Nagorno-Karabakh page discussions I will continue to expose his malicious tricks and lies one by one and will eventually get him expelled from Wikipedia for his previous insults on me and dishonest editing and arguing behaviour. --Tabib 19:12, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

NPOV vs Azeri POV

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I have edited the article, providing the following text:

According to Azeri-Turkic point of view, Artsakh (present-day Nagorno-Karabakh) was a historical part of Albania. However Armenian historians claim that Artsakh has been a part of Armenia for more them millenia. This opinion is supported by most of non-Armenian historians as well, and it is based on ancient sources (Strabo, Plinius Secundos, Clavdius Ptolemeus).

And I would like to understand, what's wrong with the above statement?

Tabib, please avoid personal attacks in your answer. I usually don't read your answer when you start accusing me of something... (I am not a crimanial and I am not an Armenian - and I can prove this!).

Rovoam 19:28, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dear fellow editors,

After User:Rovoam's numerous personal attacks, his public insults on my address calling me "Turkish vandal", "sick" "uneducated and uncivilized person" etc., I see no point of arguing with him. Therefore, I will direct my efforts at preventing Rovoam to confuse you by his deceptive posts and edits.

Rovoam's edit above is an extreme example of bias. The question of Artsakh being part of historical Caucasus Albania has been discussed in detail in Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh. I have proved bringing lots of authoritative sources, even Armenian sources, that Artsakh's historical belonging to Caucasus Albania is not an "Azeri POV", as Rovoam claims, but is a well-established and commonly accepted historical fact. Please, see the following posts, in which I have already addressed Rovoams nationalistic claims: Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Artsakh_province_of_Caucasian_Albania; Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Albanian_province_of_Artsakh_and_Armenian_claims; Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Devil.92s_advocacy_and_the_irrefutable_facts; also Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#Historical_fact:_subjugation_of_Albanian_church_to_the_Armenian_under_Arabs; Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive1#On_details_of_subjugation_of_Albanian_church_to_Armenian:_excerpts and also, Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh#Rovoam.92s_proposition_to_solve_the_conflict (last post where Rovoam, who previously stated "Karabakh was never part of Albania", suddently accepts the facts, but now, as part of his strategy, prefers to deny again.)

The previous discussion during which we extensively discussed Artsakh, Caucasus Albania and borders of "Greater Armenia" took more than 200 pages and is still ongoing. Rovoam by vandalizing and introducing biased edits into this page, tries to confuse public opinion, discredit me (he knows that he himself is already discredited) and eventually, push his bias to Wikipedia. I call you not to be deceived by Rovoam! --Tabib 19:53, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

Please Tabib, for the sake of Wikipedia, remove from your user page Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not, because this is becoming really hypocritic, given your answers like those above. "Proving" require a personal research, and is restricted under Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not. This entry is obviously POV, in that that it misrepresent positions, and this regardless of what you prove. An example here, is again, your refusal to accept and recognize name and word conventions, by continuisly using an Azeris term for the name of an author in the articles, by ignoring that the rest of the world use another name. This is simply against name conventions and a distrespect in that that this is English Wikipedia, and the English name conventions(when they exist, in this cases they do exist). Please stop using Unwiki terms like "proving," and stop introducing terms in articles, and claims, that are find nowhere other than from Azeris nationalist authors. This is clearly POV, to present a minority point of view as majority, it is as well unwiki, to claim to justify your edits by claiming you have proven something. We aren't editing an entry about fundamental mathematic here. Fadix ^{(My Talk)} 19:15, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Dear User:Tabib! Would it be so difficult for you to repeat your argumentrs here once again? Just copy/paste your previus posts here, because I cannot find your answers. I really don't understand why you removing references to well known historical facts. If I missed something from your previous messages and haven't answer, it does not mean that I agreed with you. I am still trying to understand your Turkic POV, as you can see! Rovoam 22:27, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Protected

Latest comment: 19 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Rovoam has gone beyond the pale and is reverting simply to make some kind of point [3]. Because he is virtually unblockable and rather obsessive, I have protected this article and quite a few others. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:09, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Unprotected. Protected for long enough. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:10, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Since article is protected, can you make these 2 changes:

1.Post the map of Caucasian Albania:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Caucasus03.jpg

2. Create a link to article about Udi language (if there is such).

Thanks. User:PANONIAN

I disagree with that map. It is not an academic map and it is not correct. Even if accepted conditionally, it reflects only a certain historical period when parts of Albania were occupied by Greater Armenian kingdom in II-I cc. BC. Moreover, this map also has incorrect borders for Iberia, which controls Albanian province of Utik (i.e. the part of land in that "map" which lies in between the territory of "Greater Armenia" and "Albania"). Historically, Albania consisted of what is mostly the present-day Azerbaijan, including such provinces as Utik (shown as part of Iberia in that "map"), Artsakh, Siunik, Paytakaran (shown as part of Armenia (or Greater Armenian kingdom, to be more precise).

The issue of borders of Caucasian Albania, and especially most controversial issue of Artsakh's belonging to either Albania or Armenia was discussed extensively in Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh. You can see the links to these previous messages in my postings above.

Unfortunately, in historiography (particular the Western historiography), Caucasian Albania was much less studied than the Greater Armenian kingdom. That's why there are many historical maps of the ancient Caucasus which show (sometimes overexagerrated) borders of this ancient empire, but there is virtually no Western maps showing the original borders of Caucasian Albania, as well as the borders of this state in subsequent centuries (I c. AD and esp. IV-VIII cc.) when Caucasian Albania did return most of its lands occupied previously by the outside powers. I will try to find some alternative maps to suggest to you, so I believe we can discuss this issue further.--Tabib 14:10, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Tabib's POV is not a NPOV

Tabib is pushing Azeri-Turkish propaganda, calling it NPOV. All his opponents are taged with a "vandal" label. This person just cannot accept other opinions, which are different with his own. He is not able and not willing to compromise or nagotiate anything. (posted by User:64.136.2.254 01:50, Jun 15, 2005 (a anon IP used by vandal Rovoam text attribution by --Tabib 13:46, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Sources

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci, trans. from old Armenian by C. J. F. Dowsett, London: Oxford University Press, 1961.

“Caucasian Albania and Armenian conquests” section should be edited. It does not make much sense. It insists that Albanians were “assimilated politically and culturally” by Armenians, while one of the Albanian tribes, Udis, lives in Azerbaijan to this day. Udis are a living proof of the baselessness of such statement. Udis are not Armenians, their language belongs to Northeast Caucasian language family, and they are mostly Russian Orthodox by religion. They have their distinct culture and folklore. Statements such as “By the 8th century—following the assimilations—the term “Aghvank” lost its ethnic and political meaning” are far from factual accuracy.

Also, the last paragraph of this section is clearly a propagandistic attack on Azeri side. Basically the purpose of such propaganda is to lay claims on some Azeri lands, therefore nationalistic circles in Armenia try to deny the existence of Albanian people and insist that they were completely assimilated by Armenians centuries ago, which is not true. I hope someone will edit this section and make it more consistent with the Wikipedia polices of NPOV. Grandmaster 10:10, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Movses Kaghankatvatsi's passage

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I just editted the passage containing Movses Kaghankatvatsi's quotation from his "History of Aghvank, I.4, to clarify the context of Aran's inheritance of Aghvank. The old quotation makes it sound as if Aran "inheritted" the area from his parents, whereas he was appointed as the prince of Agvhank. Here is a translation of the complete chapter 4 from Russian. It's from the link contained at the end of the article pointing to Kaghankatvatsi's complete Russian translation (http://www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/kagantv/aluank1.html). I can see there are Azeri and Armenian users monitoring this article, so I assume they know Russian as well:) If you find any mistakes, feel free to correct.

Book 1, Chapter 4

Formation of the Principality of Aghvank by Vagharshak

Here starts the history of the principality of the country of Aghvank. From the beginning of the creation of the human race to the Armenian king Vagharshak, we cannot tell anything reliable to the listeners about those who live near the high mountains of Caucasus. Upon establishing order among the northern residents, he called representatives of savage tribes, living in the northern plain and in the foothills of Caucasus mountains, in the plains and gorges to the south, to the place where a valley begins, and ordered them to stop violence and godlessness, and to obediently pay royal tributes. Then the king appointed chiefs and rulers to them, a leader of whose, by Vagharshak's order, was appointed someone from the family of Sisakan, one of the descendants of Yafet, named Aran, who inherited the plains and mountains of Albania beginning from the river Yeraskh (Araks) up to the castle of Hunarakert. After Aran's soft taste, this country was called Aghvank, as due to his soft taste he was called Aghu. Many brave and wise descendants of this Aran, as they say, were appointed by Vagharshak Partev as his subordinates (vice-princes) and generals (of groups of thousands).--TigranTheGreat 07:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Corrections on Strabo's quotations on Armenia

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I just made a correction to the part of the article that stated "according to strabo, Armenia was a small country at the sources of euphrates and tigris." Strabo never limits Armenia to the sources of the two rivers, and in fact he says that one of the two parts of Armenia, the one inheritted by Artashes, was around the city of Artashat (which is in southern Transcaucasia, modern Armenia). Here is the full passage.

[5] According to report, Armenia, though a small country in earlier times, was enlarged by Artaxias and Zariadris, who formerly were generals of Antiochus the Great,9 but later, after his defeat, reigned as kings (the former as king of Sophene, Acisene, Odomantis, and certain other countries, and the latter as king of the country round Artaxata), and jointly enlarged their kingdoms by cutting off for themselves parts of the surrounding nations,--I mean by cutting off Caspiane and Phaunitis and Basoropeda from the country of the Medes; and the country along the side of Mt. Paryadres and Chorsene and Gogarene, which last is on the far side of the Cyrus River, from that of the Iberians; and Carenitis and Xerxene, which border on Lesser Armenia or else are parts of it, from that of the Chalybians and the Mosynoeci; and Acilisene and the country round the Antitaurus from that of the Cataonians; and Taronitis from that of the Syrians; and therefore they all speak the same language, as we are told. Strabo, Geography, 11.14.5

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0198&layout=&loc=11.14.1

Also, Strabo doesn't say Armenia was small originally, only in "earlier times," which means before Artashes and Zariadris expanded it, which is early II c BC. In fact he earlier states that Armenia was a large country ruling "whole of Asia" before Median king Astiages, which is around 600 BC, which is consistent with Movses Khorenatsi's account of Armenia's king Paruyr Skayordi defeating Assyrians and taking Ninveh in 600's, and being a powerful king (along with the subsequent kings Hrachya and Tigran Yervandyan).

[5] In ancient times Greater Armenia ruled the whole of Asia, after it broke up the empire of the Syrians, but later, in the time of Astyages, it was deprived of that great authority by Cyrus and the Persians, although it continued to preserve much of its ancient dignity; and Ecbatana was winter residence4 for the Persian kings, and likewise for the Macedonians who, after overthrowing the Persians, occupied Syria; and still today it affords the kings of the Parthians the same advantages and security. Strabo, Geography, 11.13.5

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0198&layout=&loc=11.13.1 --TigranTheGreat 07:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Correction of date when Aran founded Aghvank

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I just corrected the date in the article referring to Movses Kaghankatvatsi's account of creation of Principality of Aghvank by king Vagharshak. Vagharshak ruled in early II c. BC, according to data given us by numerous ancient Armenian historians, including Movses Kaghankatvatsi. Here is an exceprt from his "History of Aghvank", I.3:

[coming] from the family of these Parthians, there were 26 kings in Armenia - from Vagharshak till Artashir, son of Vramshapuh. Ruled they for 620 years. Here the the rule of the Arshakuni dynasty as well as the patriarchy of the family of St. Grigor were cut off. I.3 (http://www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/kagantv/aluank1.html)

The Russian text at the site reads:

Из [рода] этих парфян в Армении царствовало двадцать шесть царей – от Валаршака до Арташира, сына Врамшапуhа. Царствовали они шестьсот двадцать лет. Тут прекратилось царствование [династии] Аршакидов и патриаршество рода святого Григора.

The Arshakuni dynasty ended in 428 ad. This places Vagharshak at 192 BC. Exactly when Artashes started ruling according to Western accounts, leading to many historians conclude that Vagharshak was another name given to Artashes.

Khorenatsi too is talking about that time when he writes about Aran founding Aghvank ("History of Armenia" II.8. Actually Kaghankatvatsi took Khorenatsi's account almost verbatim).--TigranTheGreat 00:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Move

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I've moved this back to Caucasian Albania per request of Nikola, who got this a bit muddled I agree with the move. It seems to be by far the most popular usage in English, still (see the top of the page). For example, it is used by this website here [4], which is appears to be a specialist website on the history of the region. None of the other spellings seem to stand out in any way - 'Aghbania' seems to be a particularly rare form. If there is evidence otherwise, I should be glad to see it. Morwen - Talk 13:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Palimpsest

Latest comment: 18 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Shouldn't the ancient Albanian Christian lectionary translated by prof.Zaza Aleksidze be mentioned in this article?128.214.205.4 17:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Why not? Grandmaster 19:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Assimilation

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This article claims that Albanians were completely assimilated by 8th century, but see this quote from Chronicles by Zachariah Kanakertsi, 17th century Armenian historian:

Some man from the tribe of alvans, who are now called udis, from the alvanian town of Gandzak, went to the holy monastery of Gandzasar, where the residence of alvanian catholicos is located, and became a disciple of Catholicos Ovannes.

Закарий Канакерци. Хроника.

Некий человек из племени алван, которых ныне зовут удинами, из алванского города Гандзака, отправился в Святую обитель Гандзасара, где находится престол алванского католикоса, и стал учеником католикоса Ованнеса. [5]

This should be corrected. Udis live in Azerbaijan to this day. Grandmaster 07:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Map

Latest comment: 17 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion

That map is ridiculous. C.Albania never had such borders. Especially in the 5th-8th centuries.--Eupator 13:42, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

If it ever had such borders, that'd be after the 4th century, and the given time frame seems perfectly accurate. Personally I don't see anything wrong with the map. Parishan 05:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the old map was more accurate. If you look at any map from this period you will see the distinct borders between Albania, Armenia, and Iberia. At no point in its history did Albania ever have rule over Nakhichevan, Lake Sevan, or even Paytakaran. I have noted that maps showing Albania with such borders can only be found on extremely pro-Azerbaijani websites which hope to claim the provinces of Syunik, Vayots Dzor, and Gegharkunik from present-day Armenia. -- Clevelander 15:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Paytakaran is mentioned in v.1, ch.12 of Moses of Kalankatuyk's History of Aluank as a part of Caucasian Albania in the 4th century. So is Syunik (v.2, ch.28 - 7th century), which back then included Vayots Dzor as well. Not so sure about Nakhichevan. Parishan 00:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I just read it. It speaks of a certain Sanatruk, who rebelled in the city of Paytakaran against Armenians with Sassanid support.--Eupator 02:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes. It also says that the city of Paytakaran was situated in Caucasian Albania. The city is believed by many scholars (e.g. Patkanian) to be present-day Beylagan (Azerbaijan). Parishan 02:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

What is the source of the map that is included in the article? Who created it, based on which sources, and which period in time does it represent? Grandmaster 13:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

It was from an Azerbaijani source (I believe EuroCaspian.Com). -- Clevelander 14:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Could you please provide a link for it? It is unclear to what period in history it relates. Grandmaster 05:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Jalaleddin POV

Latest comment: 17 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

This chapter of Talkpage was initially created by user:Jalalleddin at the beginning of page instead of bottom. I moved it in proper place.--Dacy69 03:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear Friends. This article requires a serious revision to clean it up from those nationalist interpretations of history of the Southern Caucasus that are wrong in a self-evident way and have long been rejected by the international communuty of scholars. The history of the so-called “Caucasian Albania” – a country whose existence is no more confirmed than that of the mythical Atlantis - is a primary example of such politically-motivated efforts.

For instance: who is “Movses Kalankaytuk” – is it an awkward attempt to mispronounce the name of the Armenian author Movses from Kaghankatuyk, also known as Movses Kaghankatvatzi??? That should be changed.

CAUCASIAN ALBANIA BEFORE THE BIRTH OF CRIST: THE CAUCASUS' ATLANTIS?

What was “Caucasian Albania” after all??? “Caucasian Albania” was an ancient, semi-mythical country in the Caucasus. [Caucasian] “Albania” or “Alvania” is a term used by ancient Greek historians, such as Strabo, in designating a long-lost civilization in southeastern part of the Caucasus, between the River Kura and the Caucasus Mountains (northeastern part of modern Azerbaijan).

The adjective “Caucasian” and “Caspian” distinguishes it from the Albania in the Balkans, near Greece. Greek authors usually took foreign toponyms and phonetically morphed them to fit their language patterns and, in some instances, to resemble places in Greece’s neighborhood. That’s exactly what happened with the Armenian name of the territory, Aghvank, when Greeks styled it into “Albania.” Pre-Christian “Caucasian Albania” is rightfully called “Atlantis of the Caucasus,” and whatever little is known about it comes mostly from medieval Armenian sources, especially from the text “History of the Land of Aghvank,” written by the 7th century author Movses Kaghankatvatzi and updated in the 10th century by Movses Daskhurantzi; both were native Armenians from Artsakh (modern Nagorno Karabakh). Their History was written in ancient Armenian.

Pre-Christian Aghvank was described by Strabo as a tribal confederacy made of as many as 26 different groups/tribes of unknown ethnic origin. It is unclear which tribes were Armenian and which were Scytho-Iranian or Caucasian. Because of this ethnic incoherence, Aghvank quickly came under a strong unifying ecclesiastical and cultural influence of neighboring Armenia, from where it received Christian baptism. The Church of Aghvank was in communion with the Church of Armenia, and the Armenian language became Aghvank’s literary medium. This allowed dynasts from the Armenian borderlands of Artsakh and Utik to extend their influence to the east—across the River Kura—and begin subordinating the Kingdom of Aghvank to them, in the end assimilating it politically and culturally.

HOW "CAUCASIAN ALBANIA" BECAME AN ARMENIAN KINGDOM:

After the partition of Armenia between Byzantium and Persia (in 387 AD), Artsakh and Utik were detached from Armenia proper, and, together with Aghvank, were made part of a single Persian self-governing province called “Aghvank” (Arran, in Persian). The Armenian princes of Artsakh—the Arranshahiks—who always sought greater autonomy from the Armenian King, took advantage of the situation. They bestowed upon themselves the title of “King of Aghvank” and moved the headquarters of the Church of Aghvank from the eastern bank of the River Kura to Partav, in Armenia. By this, the Arranshahiks extended their rule from historical Armenia to all provinces east of Artsakh—up to the Caspian Sea and Caucasus Mountains.

Not surprisingly, Movses Kaghankatvatzi described Aghvank as part of a system of Armenian lands where all geographic terms and human names were uniquely Armenian. Some of these toponyms survived to this day, and some of Aghvank’s first names are used by modern Armenians (e.g. Vachagan, Aghvan, Marut). For over 5 centuries, Aghvank cum "Caucasian Albania" was an Armenian civilization that included 80 percent of what is now "Azerbaijan." The language of the country was Armenian and all the toponyms - especially in Artsakh, Utik and Paitakaran - had Armenian format (with endings on "shen" meaning "village," "van" meaning "settlement" and "kert" meaning "town").

Despite the fact that ancient Caucasian Albanians were Armenian by language and culture, their political identity has evidently never been fully Armenian. This is completely understandable and was a function of the feudal system and tribal character of ancient Armenian lands of the East. Caucasian Albania was an Armenian kingdom in the same way the Kingdom of Venice was an Italian state. Caucasian Albanians had an Armenian ethnic core, with a unique political identity and a somewhat different culture (similar to how modern Bulgarians are different from Macedonians or Russians – from Belarusians). Plus, in the early stages, when the kingdom was established, the ethnic palette of the kingdom evidently included non-Armenian tribes. By the 5th century AD, however, all those non-Armenian elements were assimilated or suppressed. That is why the attempt to invent a script for Aghvank’s largest non-Armenian tribe of Gargareans (by the creator of the Armenian alphabet, Mesrob Mashtotz, in the 5th century) ended in a failure—it has never been used.

By the 8th century, the term “Aghvank” lost its ethnic and political meaning and began designating one of the dioceses of the Armenian Apostolic Church, as the Katholicosate of Aghvank. In the Middle Ages, it also became an abstract geographic term for the territory that once comprised Persia’s Armenian-ruled satrapy of Aghvank/Arran.

CAUCASIAN ALBANIA AS A KEY PART OF AZERBAIJANI HISTORICAL REVISIONISM:

“Caucasian Albania” as a key element of Azerbaijani historical revisionism. Azerbaijani historians used the complex history of “Caucasian Albania” as a feedstock to a rather grotesque nationalist doctrine that was concocted for the purpose of denying Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh their historical heritage—so that they could not aspire to secession because of the Armenian origin of their homeland. Azerbaijani publications tried to create an impression that because the Armenians of ancient Artsakh sometimes described themselves as belonging to “Aghvank,” there were not Armenians at all.

According to this Azerbaijani logic, if medieval Italians called themselves Venetians, Florentines or Genoese, they were not Italian, the ancient Athenians were not Greek and the Bavarians had nothing to do with being Germanic. Further, Baku’s academics declared as “Albanian” all Armenian historical monuments found on territories incorporated into Soviet Azerbaijan—even those with extensive Armenian inscriptions, uniquely Armenian designs and well-documented role in Armenian history. The incompetence, crude fabrications, absurd claims and self-evident political bias of Azerbaijan’s pseudo-scientists were exposed in writings of Soviet scholars, in the 1980s, and their Western colleagues—since the late 1990s. Among the Western texts that expose Azerbaijani fabrications are two critically acclaimed books about the Caucasus: Yo’av Karny’s “Highlanders” (chapter “Ghosts of Caucasian Albania” - pages 371-404) and Tom de Waal’s “Black Garden” (chapter “Hurekavank: the Unpredictable Past” – pages 145-159). Both authors deride at the grotesqueness of Azerbaijani revisionism and its most fervent apologists – nationalist scholars Farida Mamedova and the late Zia Biniatov.

METHODOLOGY AND POLITICAL BACKGROUND OF AZERBAIJANI HISTORICAL REVISIONISM:

Azerbaijani revisionism is a well-acknowledged and well-documented political crusade, and the idiotic efforts to concoct the myth about “Caucasian Albania” is part and parcel of this program. It stands on shaky legs and, as mentioned above, has long become a butt of ugly jokes among serious scholars. The root cause of this is a pathological complex of inferiority and national insecurity that has defined Azerbaijani identity and culture. In contrast to the ancient kingdoms of Armenia, Georgia and Persia (Iran), Azerbaijan is a 20th century phenomenon, and essentially, a side-effect of the 19th century’s Caspian oil boom. “History of Azerbaijan” – with or without the chapter about “Caucasian Albania” -- is nothing more than a Stalinist fabrication. Similarly to dozens of other examples—like Nigeria, Pakistan or Philippines—the country called “Azerbaijan” is a 20th century phenomenon. In contrast to the neighboring ancient civilizations of Persia (Iran), Armenia and Georgia, no country called “Azerbaijan” ever existed in the world history before 1918, and no people called “Azerbaijanis” were known prior to 1927. Furthermore, the territory of modern Azerbaijan has never been called by that name before 1918, but designated an ancient province of northern Persia. When the government of the self-proclaimed Azerbaijani Democratic Republic (ADR) decided to use “Azerbaijan” for naming their newly-established state, Persia protested, creating a controversy that killed ADR’s admission to the League of Nations.

Creating national “histories” was an off-shoot of nativization (korenizatsia, in Russian)—an early Soviet nationalities policy promoted mostly in the 1920s but with a continuing legacy in later years. Beginning under Vladimir Lenin, nativization was created to appeal to the many non-Russian residents of the former Russian Empire, and to internationalize the communist movement. This implied the promotion of national cadre in union republics, and the creation of standard national languages and cultures for peoples whose name the republics and autonomies came to bear. Methodologically, nativization was based on the Marxist-Leninist interpretation of history, which implied that all nations passed through several distinct phases of economic and political development as precursors to the proletarian revolution against capitalism. Once engineered into a nationality by Bolshevik anthropologists, with their own autonomous republic called “Soviet Azerbaijan” and their language designated as “Azerbaijani,” Turkic speakers of the Southern Caucasus became entitled to a national history that would show how they—supposedly, as an identifiable people and not as a group of tribes an urban communities they in fact were—took the journey from pre-modern society to socialism. This historical narrative, together with flag, anthem, socialist coat-of-arms and national costume were all codified as attributes of Azerbaijan’s status within the USSR.

Yours - Jalaleddin

Here is a quick summary of facts about the major text on Caucasian Albania (Movses Kaghankatvatzi’s “History of the Land Of Aghvank”) and about cultural character of Aghvank. The English translation of the book was done by C.J.F. Dowsett, see C.J.F. Dowsett: “History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci,” London 1961. Please find that book in your library or use the Russian translation of Kaghankatvatzi’s work - История Страны Алуанк - which is available online from the Russian website called "Vekhi":

http://www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/kagantv/index.html

1. Movses Kaghankatvatzi’s work is written in ancient Armenian (called Grabar) presumably in the 7th century.

2. Movses Kaghankatvatzi’s mentions that the name of the land – Aghvank – comes from the Armenian word “aghu” which means “kind.”

3. The kingdom was established by the Armenian king Vagharshak

4. Prominent religious and cultural figures of ancient Armenia – St. Gregory the Enlightener (who baptized Armenian into the first Christian nation, and Mesrop Mashtotz, who invented the Armenian alphabet, played a prominent role in the history of Aghvank. Kaghankatvatzi dedicated many chapters in his book to the description of their religious and cultural deeds.

5. Movses Kaghankatvatzi’s work shows that the language of the country was Armenian, and all the toponyms - especially in Artsakh, Utik and Paitakaran - had a unique Armenian format (with endings on "shen" meaning "village" (e.g. Shakashen), "van" meaning "settlement" (e.g. Amurvan), and "kert" meaning "town" (e.g. Hnarakert). Plus, the first names of “Caucasian Albanians” were Armenian too: Tagui, Vachagan, Marut, etc. All these and other names are in use by modern Armenians; to say more, modern Armenian widely use the name “Aghvan” as a male first name.

6. The legendary ancestor and first political leader of the kingdom was Arran. He is described by Kaghankatvatzi as originating from Sisak – a great-grandson of Haik the Progenitor, an epic ancestor of the Armenians who established his domains at Sisakan, which corresponds to the province of Siunik in modern Republic of Armenia. This points to the Armenian origin of Arran, whose name is likely to have been a local version of the iconic Armenian name Ara. Some names of the Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh, that was part of Caucasian Albania, show similar variations from their standard Armenian equivalents (e.g. Armok instead of Armenak, Avan instead of Hovhannes or Tuni instead of Haroutiun).

best regards, Jalalleddin

Nice copy-paste work on Armenian websites. You might as well provide a link. Grandmaster 06:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Armeno-Albanians and Jalaleddin's Comments (which remain undiscussed...)

Allah-u akbar!

• If I hear no answers to these comments soon, someone will need to go back and post my version of the text in its entirety. The text must account for the profoundness of Armenian cultural, ethnic and political presence in “Caucasian Albania.” The article is in a very bad shape.

• Everyone who studies “Caucasian Albania” has to understand that the only more or less complete text devoted to that country is called “The History of the Land of Aghvank” (Պատմություն Աղվանից Աշխարհի). Like “The History of of Taron” (Պատմություն Տարոնի) by Hovhannes Magistros, Stephanos Orbelian's "History of Siunik" or “The History of the House of Artzrunids” by Tovma Artzruni – it is a historiy of an Armenian-held feudal possession. All these lands did not need to be part of a unified Armenian state to be considered Armenian. In the Middle Ages , if you were not a huge empire, you would likely end up being a small kinglet. National states in the modern sense did not exist in the Middle Ages (perhaps Armenia was one of the few exceptions). Krakow did not need to be part of a state called "Poland" in order to be considered a Western Slavic state. Crete did not need to be part of a state called "Greece" (which never existed before 1821) in order to be viewed as a Greek land.

The kings of "Caucasian Albania" were among the multitude of Armenian princes and dukes, like King of Vaspurakan, King of Siunik, King of Lore-Tashir, King of Kars or King of Ani. All of these Armeno-Albanian kings had Armenian names, which are in wide use even today! Artzvaghen/Արծվաղեն, Vache/Վաչե, Vachagan/Վաչագան etc. There are hundreds and hundreds of Vaches and Vachagans walking the streets of Yerevan, Stepanakert or Los-Angeles.

You have to understand, people, that “The History of the Land of Aghvank” is Armenian page by page, name by name, settlement by settlement, event by event, term by term. Everything, no exceptions. There is very little - if anything - non-Armenian there. The only things that are different are the unique political identity of Armeno-Albanians and the passage about the Gargarean alphabet. Read these three texts in Armenian or in any other language, and compare them.

• “The History of the Land of Aghvank” contains one of the finest examples of early medieval Armenian poetry — “The Elegy on the Passing of the Grand Prince Jivanshir” attributed to Davtak Kertogh. Each passage of the “Elegy” begins with a letter of the Armenian script, in alphabetical order. There is a stupid propaganda claim (based on a methodological blooper - conspiracy theory) that the original of “The History of the Land of Aghvank” was not written in Armenian, and that evil Armenians later "destroyed" that original and re-wrote the "History." But then how to explain the the unique shape and design of the “Elegy's”???

• All toponyms in the book are Armenian, and all first names are Armenian as well – most of which are in use to this day. All churches on the territory of “Caucasian Albania” have unique Armenian designs, and are covered by inscriptions in Armenian (which Azerbaijanis try to erase, like the infamous incident with church in Kish that outraged the Norwegians who financed its restoration).

• Some churches on the territory of “Caucasian Albania” are carbon copies of analogous churches in central Armenia. Go to Google Images and see for yourself. The cathedral in Gandzasar is closely resembling the cathedral in Harich (Harij) and the main church of Hovhannavank. Basilica Tzitzernavank, Amaras, etc. - they are identical. But this is also true about the churches in Kutkashen (oops - an Armenian toponym!), Vardashen (oops, another Armenian toponym!), Belakan (oops, Armenian toponym again!), Shirvan (another Armenian-sounding toponym), Axsu, Agdash, etc.

• The origin of Aran from Sisak – a grandson of Haik – shows the Armenian connection in “Caucasian Albania.”

• Stop vandalizing and mispronouncing Armenian names like “Movses Kalankaytuk.” His name was Movses Kaghankatvatzi, meaning Movses from [the settlement of] Kaghankatuyk. The ruins of Kaghankatuyk are in Nagorno Karabakh near the village of Mataghes. When mentioning his name, provide the Armenian-lettered equivalent - Մովսես Կաղանկատվացի (you may copy/paste it from here). Similarly, change Aguen/Aluen to Aghven (Աղվեն)- the way it is in the Grabar-based phonetics of "The History..." When Armenian scholars were translating "The History..." into Russian, they replaced "gh" (Ղ) with (struck-L), because in Russian there is no "gh."

• About Artsakh. Artsakh, once the 10th prefecture of the Kingdom of Greater Armenia, became part of the Armeno-Albanian state.

• Armenians of Armeno-Albanian state were not Armenian enough, so to say, in a modern sense. That's why "Caucasian Albania" is a poltically unique phenomenon. They spoke Armenian, but they tried to be politically different from Armenia and they built their own Armenian church of “Caucasian Albania” (which soon became one of several Catholicosates of the Armenian Apostolic Church). The fact is there were several Armenian Churches. And in the Middle Ages there were several autonomous Armenian Catholicosates - one in Vagharshapat (Ejmitzin, the main one, the Holy See), one in Khachen/Karabakh (Catholicosate of Aghvank), one in Cilicia, and one in Akhtamar (on the Lake Van). They were autonomous because rulers of these lands wanted to be autonomous.

Compare this with modern “Azerbaijanis.” The Turko-Islamic population of, let’s say, Khanate of Shirvan, was not “Azerbaijani” in a modern sense but culturally and ethnologically these people were predecessors of today's “Azerbaijanis.” Pskov was a Russian principality but if you asked medieval Pskovian or Novgorod-based Slavs if they were "Russian," they would have likely shrugged shoulders and looked perplexed.

• Furthermore, in the early Middle Ages, Armenians from Artsakh and Utik probably were not Armenian enough in a cultural sense either. They must have felt what modern Belarusians feel toward modern Russians - "brotherly peoples". That added to their feeling of political uniqueness and desire to be autonomous from the King of Armenia. Despite the evidence to the contrary, it is possible that there was a number of various Armenian peoples - let's remember also that Armenians of the past were a very big civilization. Vaspurakan in the 10th century (on the Lake Van) had a population of some 0.5 million while the entire Britain of that time had a population of 0.2 million. The capital city of Ani had 100,000 residents at its peak - it rivaled Constantinopole and Bagdad, and was one of the biggest cities of the time.

• Attempts to say that Armeno-Albanians after 387 AD were not an Armenian civilization is the same as to say that Venetians were not Italians because they never said “we are Italians.”

• Before and after 387 AD “Caucasian Albania” was an Armenian land and an Armenian state for all means and purposes. That Armenian-managed country stretched from the Lake Sevan to the Caspian Sea.

• Despite “Caucasian Albania” was an Armenian country, a portion - perhaps a large portion - of its population was non-Armenian (like Udis, who survived to this day). Non-Armenians of “Caucasian Albania” were so primitive and disorganized that they failed to create a single culture. But they needed unity nonetheless, and that unity was provided by the Armenian Church and Armenian culture. However, one of the Ibero-Caucasian tribes – the Gargareans – evidently had a developed enough culture to ask Mesrob Mashtotz to invent for them an alphabet, which Mashtotz did. But the tide of assimilation by Armenians eventually supplanted the drive for Gargarean cultural uniqueness. Gargarean alphabet has never been used.

• Ancient “Caucasian Albania” is the “Atlantis of the Caucasus” – nothing is known about it. Almost nothing - a few words from a Greek or Roman dude. Ibero-Albanians (all those Utians, Gargareans, Lipians and Caspians,to name the few) were already on their last legs by the 5th centuey AD. What we know about “Caucasian Albania” is about the Armeno-Albania not the “Ibero-Albania.” No unique “Caucasian Albania” culture or statehood survived the conquests by Armenians from Artsakh – everything was assimilated, suppressed or destroyed very early in the Middle Ages.

• About the Udis/Udins. Udis are often portrayed by Azerbaijani propagandists as “the real” descendents of “Caucasian Albanians,” which is right to a certain extent but Udis never preserved an identity or memory of being part of Albania/Aghvank. There is nothing. If Udis are descendents of “Caucasian Albanians" - then Armenians and Urartians must be the same. But Udis survived Armenian and Muslim assimilations. However, as well, Udis are a living testimony of how profound Armenian cultural influence on “Caucasian Albania” really was. The majority of Udis (called "Armenian Udis" - Հայ Ուտիներ) belong to the Armenian Apostolic Church (with minority being Greek Orthodox). Their names are Armenian , or include Armenian roots. Their language, while Ibero-Caucasian, has many Armenian words. Udis gave the Armenian people many important cultural and political figures, like: Sargis Kukunian (Armenian guerilla fighter, born in the village of Nij, organized an expedition into Turkish Armenia in 1890), Major-General Movses Silikian (who fought against the Turks in 1918), etc.

الله اكب- Allah-u akbar,

with best wishes, Jalaleddin