Talk:Cabbage/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: MathewTownsend (talk · contribs) 22:17, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

• Will do. I'm not a plant expert but I want to know about cabbage. MathewTownsend (talk) 22:17, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm apologizing in advance for this review. I'm finding the article hard to follow. Also, it seems to be written from some kind of global point of view, but I'm not sure if the information presented is mostly from American sources or what. And if the information provides is true worldwide, or not. Also, I'm not clear what is included under Brassica oleracea or variants and what isn't.

The article is written from a global point of view (as is required), and the information is presented from a variety of sources (American, British, French, UN, Australian, etc.) There are quite a few US sources, but this is because US universities/government agencies have done a pretty significant amount of research into agriculture, and so they've put out some pretty good sources :) The information provided, as far as I know, presents a world-wide view of the subject, and I have been careful to indicate the places where I am only discussing one country ("In the US...", "In Russia,...", etc.). More specific replies below. Dana boomer (talk) 17:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

review and suggestions

• "Smooth-leafed firm-headed green cabbages are the most common, but crinkle-leafed savoy cabbages are also found." - " also found" implies green cabbages are common but there are a few savory cabbages found. - how about something like "savoy cabbages are also widespread"? (if this is your meaning) - or is savoy cabbage the only other type and relatively rare?

• I've played with this a bit...see what you think. Dana boomer (talk) 00:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• "although savoys were not developed until the 16th century." - what does "developed" mean in this case? - purposefully bred?

• Yes, purposefully bred. Dana boomer (talk) 00:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• "but those kept for seed are allowed to grow a second year, and must be kept separated from other cole crops" - to avoid repetition of "kept", how about "those intended for seed are allowed ... "

• Done. Dana boomer (talk) 00:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• "Almost half of this came from China." - since "this" seems vague, how about "Almost half came from China."

• It came from China but where did it go?

• Produced in China. Changed, which also removed the "of this". Dana boomer (talk) 00:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• "Cabbages are used in many different ways in cooking, although pickling, in dishes such as saurkraut, is the most popular." - since pickling isn't cooking, how about "Cabbages are prepared in many different ways for eating, although pickling, in dishes such as sauerkraut ..."?

• Done. Dana boomer (talk) 00:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• "although pickling, in dishes such as saurkraut, is the most popular." - could a citation be provided for this?

• A citation is given in the proper section - I don't see that this is so controversial as to require a citation in the lead, especially when nothing else in the lead is referenced. Dana boomer (talk) 00:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Taxonomy and etymology

• "Cabbage is a member of the Brassica genus and the Brassicaceae (mustard) family. Several other cole crops are considered varieties of B. oleracea, including broccoli, collard greens, brussels sprouts, kohlrabi and sprouting broccoli." - confusing - these are all B. oleracea? Should they discussed in this article?

• Yes, all of those are members of B. oleracea, of which cabbage is sometimes considered the type species, even though it is technically one of the subgroups of B. oleracea. No, I don't believe those should all be discussed here (at least any more than they currently are), because they all have slightly different histories, cultivation and harvesting methods, culinary uses, medicinal lore, etc. I think you would find it hard going to convince anyone that all of those articles should be merged into this one. Dana boomer (talk) 00:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• "This original subspecies was selected over thousands of years into the vegetables seen today, with individual varieties being selected for different attributes, such as large heads for cabbage, large leaves for kale and thick stems with flower buds for broccoli" - could be more clearly worded

• "All of these developed from the wild cabbage B. oleracea var. oleracea, also called colewart or field cabbage." - do you mean in all English-speaking lands, or does it vary? and do you mean all the varieties of B. oleracea mentioned above?

• First point changed to suggestion below. Second point: "all of these" means the varieties discussed in the previous sentence - not sure how to make this more clear... Dana boomer (talk) 21:50, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• "The original family name of brassicas was Cruciferae, which derived from the flower petal pattern thought by medieval Europeans to resemble a crucifix.[6] The word "brassica" itself derives from "bresic", a Celtic word for cabbage.[7] The late Middle English word "cabbage" derives from the word "caboche", meaning "head", from the Picard dialect of Old French. This in turn is a variant of the Old French "caboce"." - somewhat confusing.

• should "caboce" be caboce and "bresic" be bresic and "brassica" be brassica?
• "The word "brassica" itself" - the word "itself" seems redundant

• This source used in the article says: "The word "cabbage" is an Anglicized form of the French caboche, meaning "head." It has been used, loosely, to refer to loose-heading (or even nonheading) forms of Brassica oleracea as well as to the modern hard-heading type classified as B. oleracea variety capitata."Aggie Horticulture

• I think I have addressed all of the above? Dana boomer (talk) 21:50, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• "was selected over thousands of years" - how about evolved over thousands of years - or wikilink - selected

• (suggestion) "evolved over thousands of years into those seen today, as selection resulted in varieties having different characteristics, such as large heads for cabbage, large leaves for kale and thick stems with flower buds for broccoli"? - not sure if this is your meaning, or do you mean that people did the selecting to purposefully create large leave, thick stems etc., as in some kind of plant husbandry, or is evolution the focus?

• Changed to your suggestion. This was a combination of natural evolution and plant husbandry, and I think your proposed wording gets the point across nicely. Dana boomer (talk) 21:50, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

History

• "The wild ancestor of cabbage was originally found in England and continental Europe."

• This source (used in article) says: "The Celts of central and western Europe had much to do with the distribution and popularization of cabbage as a food plant. Although the evidence points to the eastern Mediterranean and Asia Minor as the place of origin of the species, Celtic knowledge of it was so ancient as to have influenced the Latin name, Brassica (from the Celtic word bresic, meaning "cabbage").Aggie Horticulture

• I'm unclear as to your concern here? Dana boomer (talk) 21:50, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• This section seems incomplete and doesn't convey the possible history - I realize the sources seem to vary but I'm not sure there weren't varieties in Asia. If the Greeks and Romans had cabbage, then ... ?

• The sources do vary a bit, but I think I woven together the most reliable of them to make a fairly complete narrative. I found no mention of B. oleracea varieties in Asia before they were taken there from Europe through trade. Other Brassica species were present, such as B. rapa, but not B. oleracea. As mentioned in the article, the Greeks and Romans cultivated some variety of B. oleracea - whether it was what is referred to today as a cabbage is still under debate. Dana boomer (talk) 21:50, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Cultivation

• "Plants perform best when planted ..." plants, planted

• Tweaked. - DB

• "direct seeded" - is the a horticultural term? or should it be expanded to explain that it means placing the seeds directly into the earth?

• Expanded slightly. - DB

• "There are several cultivars of cabbage seen today" - "seen today" means available, or exists today, or what?

• "seen today" removed. - DB

• "Savoy, Spring Greens, Green, Red" - these are formal names of varieties of cultivars?

• These are names given by sources to groupings of varieties. For example, I can buy the variety "Danish Ballhead", which is a member of the Green cultivar group. - DB

• what is the effect of its being prone to nutrient deficiencies? Does this mean these nutrients must be added during growing?

• It means that if the plant does not receive these nutrients, other problems develop. This is remedied either by planting in soil that is high in the nutrients required by the plant, or by supplementing the soil. - DB

Production

• "This came primarily from China (43 percent) and India (11 percent)" - "from" meaning imported from? Or produced in?

• Tweaked. - DB

• "Cabbages sold for fresh market are generally smaller, and different varieties are used for those sold immediately upon harvest and those stored before sale." - do countries vary or do China and India produce all or most varieties?
• "Both hand and mechanical harvesting are used, with hand-harvesting generally used for cabbages destined for fresh market sales." Do countries vary in primary means of production or is all the same around the world?

• As far as I know, the varieties and production methods are basically the same worldwide. I searched for information that said otherwise, and couldn't find anything. Dana boomer (talk) 17:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Culinary use

• This article is about a food, so I think this section should be expanded.

• Do you have specific suggestions on what you feel is missing?

• Since the table shows that China produces most of the world's cabbage, do the Chinese also use it to eat? Also, is it used in India as food? If so, could some examples be given?

• The Chinese and Indians do eat it, although they eat other Brassica species more often, but I was not able to find additional sources detailing exactly what dishes it is used in, other than the ones already detailed in the article. Finding information on usage in these countries is complicated by the fact that they more often use Chinese cabbage (a different species), and so the majority of the sources are discussing this plant. Dana boomer (talk) 17:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Is cabbage used worldwide or mostly in Europe, US, Australia? Or where?

• It is used worldwide (as is discussed throughout the article). However, it appears to be most popular in the US and Europe. I have included all of the consumption per capita information that I could find in the Culinary use section.

• "although kimchee is more often made from Chinese cabbage - a Korean dish? Chinese cabbage is not a variant of "Cabbage (Brassica oleracea or variants), or is it?

• Chinese cabbage is the common name of some Brassica rapa cultivars. Added. - DB

Image

This image has a notice: "This image contains digital watermarking or credits in the image itself. This image (or all images in this article or category) should be adapted by removing the watermark. The usage of watermarks is discouraged according to policy."

• There seem to be lots of images on the Commons. Couldn't a better one be found?

• Image switched out. - DB

MathewTownsend (talk) 00:31, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Mathew, thanks for the review! Things have been crazy in RL lately, but I'm going to try to address your comments in the next day or two. Dana boomer (talk) 11:18, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Don't worry about a time limit. I notice a couple of wonderful plant editors helped with your great article Lettuce. Could they take a peek at this article? (Writing a plant article understandable to the general reader is really hard! - plant terms and plant article conventions are tricky.) MathewTownsend (talk) 14:32, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Manfrombuttonwillow, Casliber and Sasata all know that I've been working on this article (Cas through the Core Contest and the other two because they've helped me acquire some of the sources currently in the article). I do plan to ask them each to take a thorough look at the article before I take it to FAC, but I don't really see why its necessary for GA? (I was grateful that they looked at the GA for Lettuce, but that review went quite a bit above and beyond GAN requirements.) Dana boomer (talk) 19:44, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

• Apologize for my slowness. Will respond soon. Been fighting off my RL weather! Really sorry. MathewTownsend (talk) 13:39, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• I think I have addressed all of your comments above. Thanks again for the review! Dana boomer (talk) 17:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

comments

• alright, I'll take your word for the botanical accuracy and use of words, history, worldwide use etc.
• a few more comments about "worldwide view:

• " Cash and tobacco have both been described by the slang "cabbage", while "cabbage-head" means a fool or stupid person and "cabbaged" means to be exhausted or, vulgarly, in a vegetative state." - is this worldwide? I've never heard this (living in the US)

• These are all actually specifically US or worldwide usages, according to the source. - DB

• salads (eaten raw) - that's most common in places in US where I've lived.

• I see that you've added "eaten raw" to the culinary uses section, which is fine. As the section currently says, coleslaw (which includes raw cabbage) is the most common use for cabbage in the US. - DB

• "Several slang meanings of cabbage relate to tailoring, with "cabbage contractor" having the 18th century meaning of a tailor, while at the same time small scraps of material sold by tailors were called "cabbage". - is this British use?

• The source doesn't give a location for this usage, so I'm guessing it was worldwide (or at least English-speaking world wide). - DB

• your source gives other meanings also - "vagina", "to steal" etc. - how did you choose which to use?

• I chose a few representative ones (there were several entries that mentioned it as a substitute for "fool", "cash", tailoring terms, etc. I think it would be getting very close to listy-ness and trivia to list them all, so I gave what I felt was a representative sample, and if people are interested further, they can look at the source. - DB

Otherwise, looks good. Really nice images. I made a few edits that you are free to revert.[1] MathewTownsend (talk) 18:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again, Mathew! I hope I have addressed your comments above. Dana boomer (talk) 17:58, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

GA review-see WP:WIAGA for criteria (and here for what they are not)

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   a. prose: clear and concise, respects copyright laws, correct spelling and grammar:

   b. complies with MoS for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, summary style and list incorporation:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   a. provides references to all sources in the section(s) dedicated to footnotes/citations according to the guide to layout:

   b. provides in-line citations from reliable sources where necessary:

   c. no original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   b. it remains focused and does not go into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Does it follow the neutral point of view policy.

   fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   no edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   a. images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   b. images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

• Congratulations! MathewTownsend (talk) 21:50, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

• Wonderful! Thank you so much, Mathew! Dana boomer (talk) 21:59, 11 September 2012 (UTC)