Talk:Bulgaria–North Macedonia relations
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Ashmedai 119 in topic Information not supported by sources cited
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Bulgaria blocked North Macedonia's EU ascension
editBulgarian government has blocked North Macedonia's entry to European Union over language and historical disputes. Should have added on the same time.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2020/12/7/on-the-macedonian-bulgarian-issue ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 14:22, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
- It is already mentioned ZaDoraemonzu. Jingiby (talk) 14:34, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
- It has not been written in this relationship page. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 14:41, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Information not supported by sources cited
editThis edit by Jingiby added to the article the following sentence:
- "In 1963 the Bulgarian communist leaders openly declared that if there were no historic Macedonian nation and language until 1945, such don't exist also today".
Jingiby provided references to two sources for this claim. However, when checking these two sources, I cannot find a quote that directly supports the sentence that Jingiby added to the article. The relevant quotes from both sources are:
- "In 1963, following the Russian patriarch’s recognition of theautonomy of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, the Bulgarian leaders openly declaredthat there was no ‘historic Macedonian nation’." (The Oxford Handbook of Communism, p. 314)
and
- "The party leadership even changed its tune on Macedonia, denying the existence of a Macedonian language in 1963 (now downgraded to a western dialect of Bulgarian) and dismissing Yugoslav claims to the population living in Pirin Macedonia (the southwestern region of Bulgaria)". (Beyond Mosque, Church and State, p. 154).
Am I perhaps missing something? If yes, Jingiby, could you please point out what this is? If no, then the sentence should be altered to correspond with the sources cited. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 20:20, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hi, I really don't understand the problem. Feel free to correct the sentence. Jingiby (talk) 04:27, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- PS. Here is the opinion of Spyridon Stefas of that issue based on Zhivkov's memoires: When Todor Zhivkov, First Secretary of the Bulgarian Communist Party, took office as Prime Minister in 1962 and consolidated his positions, he decided to carve out a clear policy on the Macedonian Question, no matter what Yugoslav-Soviet relations were or would be like in the future. Under Zhivkov’s prodding in March 1963, the Plenum of the Bulgarian Communist Party elaborated some theses that would serve as a basis of the Bulgarian policy on the Macedonian Question, irrespective of the state of Soviet-Yugoslav relations: 1)There is no Macedonian nation as a historical entity. 2) The falsification of Bulgaria’s history by the historians in Skopje and the creation of the Macedonian nation on an anti-Bulgarian basis are unacceptable. 3) There is no Macedonian minority in Bulgaria. 4) A Macedonian national awareness is being built in the People’s Republic of Macedonia, but it is due to political conditions that favoured the mutation of the Bulgarians into Macedonians. 5) According to Zhivkov, the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev had not been informed about Bulgaria’s decision to raise this question at the Bulgarian Communist Party’s Plenum. For more: Sfetas, Spyridon. (2012). The Bulgarian-Yugoslav dispute over the Macedonian question as a reflection of the Soviet-Yugoslav controversy (1968-1980). Balcanica. 2012. 241-271. 10.2298/BALC1243241S. Jingiby (talk) 05:32, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Ashmedai 119, text corrections will indeed be required. I found additional information on the case: In his brief statement on the Macedonian issue at the plenum, Živkov emphasized several key points, suchas: whether or not there was a Macedonian nation and the categorical rejection of Skopje falsifi cations for the existence of a Macedonian nation in the Middle Ages; for the so-called Macedonian literary language that wascreated in Skopje and the view that in the Middle Ages, modern and contemporary history – Macedonia existed only as a territorial and political concept. Todor Živkov raised two major questions, to which if a solution was found, all the obstacles in the bilateral relations would be overcome: first – regarding the Macedonian question – Bulgaria recognized the objective establishment of the PR of Macedonia within the FPRY and accepted the formation of Macedonian national consciousness, but she was against its formation on anti-Bulgarian basis and secondly – the Bulgarian side protested against the estimates in the Yugoslav press that during and after the war, the BCP had carried out nationalist policy towards the Macedonian people. Ultimately, the conclusions made by Bulgarian party leadership were divided into the following three concepts: First – the existence of the Macedonian nation and the formation of Macedonian national consciousness to be acknowledged publicly and objectively; Second, the population of the Pirin region was part of Bulgaria; Third, it would not be correct to renounce the history of our nation (CDA, f. 1b, оp. 5, а. е. 567, 268–269, 283–286).Stamova, Marijana (2014). Bulgarian-Yugoslav relations and the Macedonian question (1948-1963). Annales. Series historia et sociologia, letnik 24, številka 4, str. 661-670. URN:NBN:SI:doc-IASREPLZ from http://www.dlib.si Jingiby (talk) 06:09, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- Jingiby, the correction was warranted the sentence you added with this edit was not directly supported by the sources you had added, as indicated in my message and in the very title of this talk page section. In just a few days that I have been active in enwiki I have noticed a worrying number of cases in which you have been to say the least cavalier in your use of the sources cited and it happens that each and every time this happens to coincide with edits that push some aspect of the Bulgarian nationalist position with regards to the Macedonian identity.
- Ashmedai 119, text corrections will indeed be required. I found additional information on the case: In his brief statement on the Macedonian issue at the plenum, Živkov emphasized several key points, suchas: whether or not there was a Macedonian nation and the categorical rejection of Skopje falsifi cations for the existence of a Macedonian nation in the Middle Ages; for the so-called Macedonian literary language that wascreated in Skopje and the view that in the Middle Ages, modern and contemporary history – Macedonia existed only as a territorial and political concept. Todor Živkov raised two major questions, to which if a solution was found, all the obstacles in the bilateral relations would be overcome: first – regarding the Macedonian question – Bulgaria recognized the objective establishment of the PR of Macedonia within the FPRY and accepted the formation of Macedonian national consciousness, but she was against its formation on anti-Bulgarian basis and secondly – the Bulgarian side protested against the estimates in the Yugoslav press that during and after the war, the BCP had carried out nationalist policy towards the Macedonian people. Ultimately, the conclusions made by Bulgarian party leadership were divided into the following three concepts: First – the existence of the Macedonian nation and the formation of Macedonian national consciousness to be acknowledged publicly and objectively; Second, the population of the Pirin region was part of Bulgaria; Third, it would not be correct to renounce the history of our nation (CDA, f. 1b, оp. 5, а. е. 567, 268–269, 283–286).Stamova, Marijana (2014). Bulgarian-Yugoslav relations and the Macedonian question (1948-1963). Annales. Series historia et sociologia, letnik 24, številka 4, str. 661-670. URN:NBN:SI:doc-IASREPLZ from http://www.dlib.si Jingiby (talk) 06:09, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- PS. Here is the opinion of Spyridon Stefas of that issue based on Zhivkov's memoires: When Todor Zhivkov, First Secretary of the Bulgarian Communist Party, took office as Prime Minister in 1962 and consolidated his positions, he decided to carve out a clear policy on the Macedonian Question, no matter what Yugoslav-Soviet relations were or would be like in the future. Under Zhivkov’s prodding in March 1963, the Plenum of the Bulgarian Communist Party elaborated some theses that would serve as a basis of the Bulgarian policy on the Macedonian Question, irrespective of the state of Soviet-Yugoslav relations: 1)There is no Macedonian nation as a historical entity. 2) The falsification of Bulgaria’s history by the historians in Skopje and the creation of the Macedonian nation on an anti-Bulgarian basis are unacceptable. 3) There is no Macedonian minority in Bulgaria. 4) A Macedonian national awareness is being built in the People’s Republic of Macedonia, but it is due to political conditions that favoured the mutation of the Bulgarians into Macedonians. 5) According to Zhivkov, the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev had not been informed about Bulgaria’s decision to raise this question at the Bulgarian Communist Party’s Plenum. For more: Sfetas, Spyridon. (2012). The Bulgarian-Yugoslav dispute over the Macedonian question as a reflection of the Soviet-Yugoslav controversy (1968-1980). Balcanica. 2012. 241-271. 10.2298/BALC1243241S. Jingiby (talk) 05:32, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
- The sentences that you further added to the article ("In 1963 the Bulgarian communist leaders openly declared that the falsification of Bulgaria’s history by the historians in Skopje and the creation of the Macedonian nation on an anti-Bulgarian basis there are unacceptable. Another conclusions were that no Macedonian nation as a separate historical entity ever existed and there is no Macedonian minority in Bulgaria") are, in my view, suprefluous and written from a non-neutral point of view. They are not neutral, because they are are giving the reader the impression that the Bulgarian Communists were merely drawing conclusions and making declarations of facts and not asserting political theses in congruence with traditional tropes of Bulgarian nationalism. (see Tchavdar Marinov (2011), «Nous ne pouvons pas renoncer a notre histoire»: Quand la question macédonienne met à l'épreuve la notion de bloc communiste, Vingtième Siècle. Revue d'histoire, 109, pp. 106-7), but also unnecessary, because it is not clear how they are related to the position of post-Communist Bulgarian governments and that is why I remove them from the paragraph where you added them. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 19:34, 15 July 2022 (UTC)