Talk:Bra Boys

Race riots

The claim that this gang "sparked" the race riots was quite rightly removed... however something still needs to be said about their role in the whole affair, with reference to media reports and other sources... anyone game?--Russell E 06:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• They appeared on the SBS 9:30 news tonight embracing members of the Comancheros (a bikie group with lots of members with a Lebanese background) saying that they had nothing to do with it and describing all those involved as gutless. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 11:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The role of the Bra Boys in attracting the attack on cars in Maroubra is not discussed. In fact their role in further heightening tensions is glossed over entirelyNomenklatura44 (talk) 03:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

In my knowledge (being a local) the Bra boys did not attract the attack at all. There was a christmas party for a local Brazilian Ju-jitsu club down at the beach where a small number of Bra Boys were also present because they were members of the club. The police came up to them and told them that the attackers were travelling on foot towards the beach. that was the first that anyone in Maroubra knew about it. Semiotic203.3.186.10 (talk) 05:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Surfer gang

Can someone from Australia perhaps write a little article about the history and concept of a surfer gang itself. It is an interesting novelty for the rest of the world. Tfine80 03:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Glad to help.... it's only a short story, quite pathetic really... and it kinds goes like this: Once upon a time, a bunch of small minded rasist bigots who had developed the skill to ride surfboards, got it into their minds that they had a material right to possess a beach, more specifically the surf that rolled onto that beach, and any surrounding areas that they chose to be so. Based on the gang-mentality, viloence, threats of violence, these bigots decided to name themselves and protect 'their' beach and 'their' surf from anyone else who wanted to use it; read swim, surf, simply enjoy the scenery.

Anyway... all the usual stories now about - the fights, the tough guys, the power of the crowds, renaming beaches and surf breaks "Ours". Naturally to appear socially acceptable, they will follow the standard church/politician/mafia examples of helping out the downtrodden and campaigning against anythng that offends their 'life' whenever convenient, or whenever the need or want the press.

Of course there are those leeches who will seek to profit from them, like the Press, film makers and tatoo artists.

As you can see, it's just another sad story in the lives of people who don't really have a life or a mind of their own, but create their own version of a life by denying other people their basic rights. Life's full of little people with little minds; the Bra Boys are a classic example. Hey someone could really have some fun by simply changing the postcode of Maroubra to 2999.

Next week: "Fearing Skippy: My life as a wallaby in the world of kangaroos." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.169.186.10 (talk) 02:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Bah Boys

This article was recently created. I was just wondering if anyone here knows anything about the "Bah Boys". Are they real? Or did the user who created the article confuse the "Bra Boys" for the "Bah Boys"? Thanks - Akamad 06:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Never mind, it seems the article has been deleted. - Akamad 10:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Keep It... And link to Surf Culture.

The Bra Boys dont care for American movies or gang culture.

They are an outstanding example of modern Australian Criminal Surf Culture.

This page should link to the Surf Culture page, which should in turn reference this page.

Just removed...

I just removed the following:

Traditionally those in the group shared a similar demographic: low socioeconomic class, and a high unemployment rate.

Domestic violence, drug, and alcohol abuse are still commonplace today. With proximity to the coast and the glamour of the beach lifestyle, surfing and the companionship of other youth in similar situations has thus been a natural escape. However, the Bra Boys still to this day have a longstanding reputation for asserting weak standover tactics against many individuals and small groups. This intimidating behaviour (seen amongst most gangs) has not only been reported at Maroubra Beach but also at many other surfing spots up and down Australia's east coast. It is this aspect of the Bra Boys which has earned them great disfavour amongst the majority of Australia's surfing population.

It was unsourced and for assertions so extreme one is needed at least. Feel free to add it back if you have reputable references. DarkSideOfTheSpoon 17:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

---

Interesting that it was added in the first place!

Although the first paragraph is true, the rest is mixed and questionable. Current and former members state in various media interviews that they formed partially as a reaction to the drug problem in their neighbourhood and the influx of external gangs. Hard drugs are "officially" frowned upon, although alcohol and soft drug (primarily marijuana) use is tolerated. The "standover tactics" listed here are, IMO, questionable too. Yes, they are very localised surfers - you need to show respect to them if you want to share their waves. Yes - they have kicked in the doors of known drug dealers, given them a beating and flushed their drugs down the toilet. But their overall impact in the Maroubra community seems to be very positive and the Australian surfing community in general does seem to admire them.

I highly recommend anyone interested reads "Bruvvas From The Gutter" by Matt Griggs, first published in Tracks Magazine 2003 and reprinted in "Waves: great Stories From The Surf" (ISBN 0732283302, Chapter 8, page 81). Dougirwin13 01:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I need to point out that the waves are not 'their waves'. The waves are there for anyone who wants to surf them, look at them, photograph them, ignore them. I do not need to show respect to a group of idiots who claim ownership of waves - how have they earnt that respect? What, by being a surfer? Besides, how do you own a wave? It is a manifestation of kinetic energy meeting a immovable object named the coastline?

I guess if the surfing sub-culture was not worth as much money to the commercial world, then the Bra Boys would really just be another bunch of girls. By making all the young kiddies relate to surfing, thereby seeing themselves as cool, tough, a man, (i.e. now I'm like a braboy - now can I get me tatoo??) you obtain lots of money of them and their parents. This has occurred every since surfing has commercial products - about 40 years.

It's not about a bunch of losers, it's about the money they generate for the commercial world, most probably without gaining a cent of it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.7.166.182 (talk) 08:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

These idiots are lucky they haven't faced a sniper attack from shore... yet. I'm sure they'd make good shark meat out there bobbing up and down bleeding to death in the water. Staking out territory and claiming it as your own without any right to do so has led and will always lead to violence. They are dead men. I'd like to see these morons try to pull this on an American beach nowadays. They'd all be shot to death by now. Those little Napoleons are lucky to still be alive. Little loser babies splashing in their bathtub get angry when adults take away their play toy. Can't wait to see it soon. Losers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.117.134.180 (talk) 11:41, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

A significant core of the Bra Boys come from Housing Commission (government subsidised housing) backgrounds which in general are from a lower socio-economic background however not all Bra Boys are from this background. I am a regular down at Maroubra beach and have never had any issues whatsoever with the Bra Boys (and no I am not a Bra Boy). They also do not claim ownership of the breaks they surf. What they do ask is that if you want to visit their neighborhood that you respect that there may be local customs that you are not aware of. For example if a female were to visit Lakemba (a reknowned Lebanese Muslim area of Sydney) wearing only a bikini then I have no doubt that tolerance would even last five minutes before someone told her to cover up or get out. This is the same issue. Semiotic 203.3.186.10 (talk) 05:54, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The Name

The Bra Boys are named after the suburb Maroubra and not the Board Riders Association. This was confirmed by Koby and Sunny on Triple J's breakfast show 'Myf, Jay & the Doctor' on the 7th March 2007. I think some people may read into things a bit too far sometimes. Seperx 20:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Doco

I actually read the links that were provided in the documentary section. One quote was missing, and one was completely out of context (I mate notes in the discusion page). I deleted both, and rewrote the remaining which is linked to David&Margaret Disco 04:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC) These guys are nothing more than drug taking, alcohol swilling thugs who gang up on and beat up other people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.154.21.62 (talk) 22:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Violence and alleged violence

In the interests of balance, there needs to be more detail on the history of the gang's violence, alleged and proven. Particularly the cowardly and extremely violent attack by three Bra Boys in 2002 on father Jeremy Nunes, who was carrying his five-week-old Elizabeth Nunes in Maroubra. The baby girl suffered head injuries in the attack, which caused intracranial bleeding and seizures. The attack was over a stolen mobile phone, but it was a case of mistaken identity. and there's no mention of Koby's charged for assaulting an off-duty police officer in Hawaii. There are other example which have been before the courts. It's important not to lose sight of what the gang's violence means for its victims. Nomenklatura44 (talk) 03:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

PLease see our policies on WP:NPOV. Neutral point of view is "neutral". Words such as "cowardly" (judgemental) and "extremely" (unqualified superlative) are simply not neutral. If you have suitable Reliable sources that document these events, please feel free to add details yourself, but please bear in mind a "just-the-facts" style of writing is more preferable for an encyclopedia. We certainly don't want to whitewash this group, but we also do not want to demonize them either. --ZayZayEM (talk) 04:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Point taken about the language usage. Overall I think that this entry is fairly generous to the Bra Boys, this attack was widely described by the NSW premier, police and the judge on the case as cowardly. I'll find the link for that and then we can attribute it.Nomenklatura44 (talk) 05:06, 8 January 2009 (UTC) ZayZayEM did you see the part on the neutrality tag that said "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved"? (I think that's called the imperative mood, or could be the prohibitive, but as I see you like your grammar you would probably know) Just a suggestion, but we could try to resolve this by talking about it here and then come up with something that we both agree on. I think this article talks about the Bra Boys as if they're a social club, which I don't think is quite true. Could we find a common ground? Nomenklatura44 (talk) 05:41, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I removed the tag because the dispute appeared to be over something that was not neutrality. (ie. comprehensive-ness). I will not remove it again until this dispute is resolved.--ZayZayEM (talk) 08:25, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Nunes assault perpetrator identity

None of the three sources provided The Age, SMH or ABC Radio Talkback/Interview with Bob Carr mention the Bra Boys.

Radio is mostly a talkback segment. No real description of attackers identity aside from "A short time ago police arrested a 23 year-old man over the attack" and a witness. Given that below its a 21 and 20 year old. It's not even clear this refers to Betts or Benishke. Carr adds some comments about his opinion about the attack, but nothing factual.

The Age describes a man facing charges for an assault in Maroubra. No mention of gang violence.

SMH identifies the charged persons as David James Betts and Trent Benishke. Betts is described as a 20 year old locksmith, with ADD who was drunk at the time of the assault. Benishke a 21 year old spray painter. No mention of gang involvement. No mention of Bra Boys. Mentions "none of the men had criminal records, none was a risk of fleeing and they had strong community ties. All three lived with their parents." Also mentions Betts was on a "good behaviour bond stemming from an affray" (which could refer to the Coogee-Randwick brawl). But without clear identification in a reliable source that these guys are members of the gang, or the violence was related to activities of the Bra Boys, these sources aren't good enough to use here.

For an example of what we really need take a look at the section on Surfing and use of Gilmore's article in the SMH to describe the acts of violence against body-boarder Rawlins.--ZayZayEM (talk) 08:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your work on this ZayZayEm, it's looking much better already. There's a few points below for your consideration. Let me know what you think, then we can proceed on a new edit.

1. It's obvious that the gang would not want to claim association with an act like this. I know we have to pin it down to sources, but it is difficult to prove and it's not like there's a list of members. To take a very different example, when Gerry Adams says he was never part of the IRA, it's hard to prove that he was, but many scholars and journalists assert that he was. Would it be enough to give details of the attack and then say something like: "However this was never formally linked to the gang”? But in fairness, I’m willing to concede on this point that there may not be enough to link the criminals in this case to the gang.

No. This would not be okay. You would implying something without evidence, and then trying to clean it off with a disclaimer statement. If you can find an opinion-maker (ie. police, politician, local spokesperson) implicating the Bra Boys, this may be fairer. You will also need a source for "this was never formally linked to the gang". Citing goes both ways. --ZayZayEM (talk) 09:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

2. I wouldn't describe this report on the ABC's World Today program as "talkback". Talkback radio is where members of the public ring in to vent and give their two cents' worth. This was a report, made up of a series of interviews with police, the premier and so on. It mentions gang violence in the context of Maroubra, so I think it’s a safe bet to say it’s talking about the Bra Boys. But as I said in the previous point, I’ll concede this for lack of sources.

See my comment below. The transcript of the shows a talkback participant calling into the show. It is not a "safe bet", its an assumption, or as wikipedia puts it original research.--ZayZayEM (talk) 09:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

3. The SMH, Age and ABC reports were from earlier on, before the three had been formally convicted. I will update the piece to include the report of the sentencing if we decide to keep it on the basis outlined in point two.

4. The Bra Boy, Koby Abberton in particular, had a large role in heightening tensions in the lead up to the 2005 Cronulla riots. His comments in the Daily Telegraph on December 9, 2005, two days before the riot, led to the retaliatory attacks on Maroubra the next weekend. The text of the article including the following:

A beast surfaces

Racial tensions across Sydney's beaches have exposed a dark undercurrent of intolerance and violence, writes LUKE McILVEEN

SURFING star Koby Abberton had said nothing since his conviction last month for lying to get his older brother off a murder charge -- but the extraordinary events at Cronulla Beach compelled him to break his silence. The leader of the notorious Bra Boys surf gang called The Daily Telegraph to offer a view on why his home beach -- Maroubra -- is one of the few in Sydney not to have been swamped by Middle Eastern gangs in recent years. ``The reason why it's not happening at Maroubra is because of the Bra Boys, Abberton claimed. ``Girls go to Cronulla, Bondi, everywhere else in Sydney and get harassed, but they come to Maroubra and nothing happens to them, he said. ``I read all this stuff about kids getting harassed because they want to have a surf and I say `are you kidding?' The beach should be for Aussie kids. But if you want to go to beaches and act tough in groups you better be able to back it up. ``If these fellas come out to Maroubra and start something they know it's going to be on, so they stay away.

Unfortunately, I can’t find an online version of this piece to link to. But in terms of balance, I really think Koby’s comments should be included in the discussion of the Cronulla riots. Nomenklatura44 (talk) 00:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources need not be online. Indeed, not all online content is reliable. However, it may make it harder to verify. If you have a print copy of this to work with and feel confident that you are accurately reflecting its content, you can use it as a source. I have used a wide variety of sources I personal access - User:ZayZayEM/Sources. --ZayZayEM (talk) 09:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Regarding some other comments you've made. Using reliable sources and having verifiability is an absolute pillar and cornerstone of wikipedia. Inference is not enough. It will never be enough. Wikipedia is a tertiary resource. This means it is built up on primary and secondary resources (and occasionally other tertiary resources). It cannot synthesise any original content. Saying "gang violence in the context of Maroubra" can only mean the Bra Boys, is not okay. Are there no other gangs in Maroubra? Who then do the Boys have confrontations with?

Vs. Gerry Collins. The difference is we have those scholars. We don't need the Bra Boys to come clean themselves. We do need notable people to implicate them. None of the news articles supplied mentioned Bra Boys, so it is not safe to assume that gang-like behaviour (not all the reports even implicate gangs) Bra Boys unless an opinion-maker indicates it --- and then we can only point out that opinion maker has said so (unless we can rule out reasonable doubt/infer common knowledge).--ZayZayEM (talk) 09:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

As I said, in points 1 and 2, I'm willing to concede that, at this point, there is not enough evidence in terms of sources to link the Bra Boys to this crime. Unless I find anything else, I will let this rest. Nomenklatura44 (talk) 00:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I did slash "Talkback/Interview" for radio national. take a look at that transcript again [1] - paragraph six - "TALKBACK CALLER". I think that fair to say it's at least partially talkback segment (and I have reliable source to indicate so).--ZayZayEM (talk) 09:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

This really isn't worth debating, but sorry you did say "mostly a talkback segment" above, which really isn't accurate at all. There's one paragraph out of the entire report [2](14 pars) that is an except from a talkback show. It's not a caller to the show, it is used as an illustrative excerpt in the report. Again, it's not a big issue, but you shouldn't be afraid to admit when you might have overlooked something, or interpreted it wrongly. Nomenklatura44 (talk) 01:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Ending the neutrality debate

I am happy, if you allow me to add Koby's comments in the Daily Telegraph from before the Cronulla riots, to end the debate over the article's neutrality. Nomenklatura44 (talk) 01:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC) I added Koby's assault charges back in to the article. He's a leader of the gang and the most visible face of it, as such it's highly relevant in the context of the subheading that he has been jailed for assault. Nomenklatura44 (talk) 01:24, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Koby's activities are only relevant in the context of the gang itself. If the Hawaii-incident cannot be shown to have been related to Bra-Boys activity, or have somehow influenced Abberton's role as a member/ringleader of the gang, it is not relevant. That Abberton is the major face of teh gang is a prime reason for his having his own article, in which his non-gang related activities (including non-gang related violent incidents) can be dealt with.--ZayZayEM (talk) 04:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Respectfully, that's a rubbish argument. Your previous argument was that the Nunnes assault could not be included because the perpetrators links to the gang could not be substantiated. Now we are looking at another violent act where there is no doubt over the links of Koby to the gang, but you say that it shouldn't be included because there is a seperate article and it's not relevent to the gang's activities. That's shifting the goal posts. I am saying that the conviction is highly relevant because it shows that the gang's leader has a history of criminal violence. You can't in fairness discuss a gang, or any group for that matter, in isolation from its leaders - they clearly have an influence on the group's thinking and practices. If Pauline Hanson had a conviction for inciting racial hatred (which btw she didn't just to be clear), then surely that would be relevent in an article on the One Nation political party. Koby's conviction for assaulting an off-duty police officer points straight to the gang's reputation (deserved or undeserved) for violence and thuggery, especially given the 2002 brawl between police and Bra Boys. Surely you can see the relevence now? Nomenklatura44 (talk) 05:34, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

It is exactly the same set of goal posts. Regarding Nunnes assault, there was no information linking it to Bra Boys activities. With the Abberton-Hawaii incident there is no linking it to Bra Boys activities.

If there was not a Koby Abberton article I might be less strong on this point - but I would certainly push for the material to be in a segment other than "History of the Bra Boys".

Again clear. This article is about a Maroubra surf gang. Activities of persons who have affiliation with the group that are not able to be presented in context of group itself are not relevant here.

Regarding your example, Hanson's hypothetical conviction would need to be shown to have had an influence on One Nation policy to be included in the One Nation article (like if it was mentioned in an unofficial biography). It would be fine for Pauline Hanson though. Without that sort of context it is either irrelevant, or an attempt to synthesise research.

The point of this article is not to "discuss a gang". It's an aggregation of reliable material on this gang, including discussions of other people. Creating our own discussion outside of someone elses research would be performing our own independent research. --ZayZayEM (talk) 10:40, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

- Koby Abberton is the leader of the gang with a reputation for violence. He was jailed for assault. You fail to make the case that this is not relevant. Just because there is a separate article for him, there is no reason that content cannot overlap in two different, but linked, articles. Check out the article on the Red Army Faction/Baader Meinhof Gang. In it, there is a discussion of one of group's leaders Horst Mahler, who has joined the far right and became a militant antisemite and Holocaust denier. This is both interesting and relevant (and I see that you like factoids). But in your line of argument, this would have no place in the article because it would belong solely in the article about Mahler. This is not an isolated example of a leader's actions/thinking being discussed in an article about a group.

- Discuss: to examine by argument; to sift the considerations for or against; to expand on a subject. We are doing the latter. This is not an attempt at original research, we are hopefully making this piece a little more comprehensive and balanced.

- "Activities of person (a person, persons, people?) who have (an) affiliation with the group that are not able to be presented in (the) context of (the) group itself are not relevant here." Koby Abberton assaulted an off-duty police officer in Hawaii and was jailed for doing so. The Bra Boys came to public attention after a brawl between them and a group of off-duty police officers. Koby doesn't just have an "affiliation with the group" he and his brother are the leaders and the most famous members of it. Explain how it's not relevant? Nomenklatura44 (talk) 01:25, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not suitable to use other wiki-pages to demonstrate what is acceptable. All wiki-pages are deemed in a state-of-imperfection. I would stand by the same arguments regarding those comments on Red Army Faction page. Though I might be persuaded more leniently. Therein describes Mahler's political beliefs, not his actions, which may be more pertinent. Now do you have some citable commentary regarding the anti-police/authoritarian stances of the Bra Boys leadership.

Believe it or not I am trying to be helpful. Perhaps I will work on that more. I am trying to give you ideas on how to better improve this article, while still actually following this project's guidelines and structure.

Maybe perhaps here is not the issue of "discussion". But absence of discussion. Koby's arrest is not provided in context. You provide reasoning for the incident's inclusion, but then that reasoning is actually lacking in the article. As it stands the article reads with a small sentence tacked on: "Oh, the boss of the gang was arrested while out of the country for smacking an off-duty police officer." And... is there anything that the reader is meant to take away from that? Objectively its a random fact. Trivia if you please. Are you trying to get the reader to reach some sort of conclusion. Is that a conclusion that you would otherwise be prohibited from outwardly stating because of protocol regarding NPOV? (That's gaming the system, frowned upon). Someone who is not thinking the same way as you may read out-of-context material in another light.

Simply, it is not relevant because its relevancy has not been discussed in the text. Please provide context for material in articles. Material that does not appear to be in context of the topic can be removed.--ZayZayEM (talk) 11:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Most of the stuff published about the Bra Boys is media beat up. They only came to light as a gang after the issue at the Coogee Legion club when they got into a brawl with the Police. The police took away the surveillance tapes from the club and then the tapes were somehow "misplaced" in the evidence locker and suddenly no one wanted to take it to court (do I need to spell it out?). The local police then declared them a gang which meant that the police could apply for additional grants from the government to deal with a "gang problem". Somewhere earlier there is a reference to Koby saying that the Lebanese don't come to Maroubra beach anymore. This is true and related to an incident a few years earlier where several Lebanese guys ganged up on a Bra Boy and started beating him up. Then one of them pulled a knife and stabbed him in the stomach (if you have seen the movie you will remember the guy with the scar). Several other Bra Boys then came across their mate and of course they beat the crap out of the guy with the knife (unfortunately they even cracked his skull). After that the Lebanese stayed away from Maroubra until the night of the revenge attacks. all of this can be verified if you know who to ask but most of it will not be in the media. Semiotic 203.3.186.10 (talk) 06:15, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

But wikipedia has to follow sources. Australian commercial media does have serious issues with the way it covers hot topics - but wikipedia can't care too much about that (unless another RS has explicitly called a direct source into question).

Wikipedia will have to rely on media coverage of events involving the Bra Boys, until other reliable independent sources show up. The movie is hardly independent so must be treated with care when it is used.

Maybe Seven's new Gangs of Oz series might cover the Bra Boys (though I hardly expect it to be sympathetic).

Also "asking some guys" is not how Wikipedia verifies things. Wikipedia is a tertairy resource, which means it relies on other published or broadcasted sources. These are secondary sources, it is there duty to fact check their items, do their research and go out ask witnesses and/or key opinion leaders to comment. (The witnesses, key opinion leaders and persons directly involved in the events are primary sources)--ZayZayEM (talk) 00:46, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Use of word 'alleged'

"Alleged" is used to describe "harassment of girls by Middle Eastern men" because this is not a proven fact. It is very hard to prove harassment without direct evidence (ie. video footage of the event).

The lifesaver bashing is a separate event. A lifesaver was quite obviously bashed, by someone. If editors feel that the statement in the article implies that the bashing of the lifesaver was also by Middle Eastern men, then it also needs to be described more ambigiously, as the identity of the culprits nor their ethnicity (as far as I am aware) have not been proven, despite widespread allegations.

"Alleged" in this context is not being used in a weasely way, as I see it. Weasely would be if it was being used in a way to identify the suspect's ethnicity in a situation that would not warrant it (i.e. "Middle Eastern men" would be the issue, not alleged).--ZayZayEM (talk) 11:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Revisions

I just checked back in on this article - someone had removed part of the section the Cronulla riots, and had changed the verdict in Koby's trial for perverting the course of justice to "not guilty" instead of "guilty". Nomenkultura44 (talk) 05:23, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

addendum

Best thing about these pussies was watching them back down like cats when the REAL gangsters showed up. Funny as hell watching that Sunny Abberton clown tongue the arsehole of that Lebbo Commanchero leader. You could smell the fear through the television. "We got no problem with middle eastern people"... Yet we'll make comments about how the beach should primarily be for 'Aussies' (I assume they're talking Aborigines here, right? No?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.64.217.166 (talk) 00:06, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Removal of disputed tags

I added the diputed and non-neutral POV tag back in January. I am now happy that the article is on the whole a lot more balanced. If anyone objects to this you are welcome to add them again, and we can discuss the issue again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomenklatura44 (talk • contribs) 04:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

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