Talk:Black belt (martial arts)/Archive 2

Re-Write

Re did the whole thing, & now just removed a section of the 'meaning of belt colours' which isn't universal and doesn't really belong here in any case. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 08:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I have reviewed this article against the criteria noted in WPMA's assessment section, and have promoted it to B class. Points that could be improved are:

• The article focuses almost exclusively on Japanese martial arts; it should be expanded to show the adoption of the belt rank system by many Korean martial arts, for example.
• The article needs more references (as already noted).
• The article could do with a picture or two, but these should be as neutral as possible (i.e., not all from one particular school or art). Perhaps a selection of black belts would be suitable—one with no embroidery, one with Asian writing, and one with writing (whether English or Asian) and Dan stripes?
• The article could be expanded with regard to ranks past 1st Dan. At the moment, it is shallow (in a manner of speaking) by only discussing the colours used for some higher ranks. Two points that come to mind: (1) in some schools, teaching experience is a significant requirement for advancement, and (2) in some (many?) schools, the very highest Dan ranks are more honorary ranks than anything else, and do not require a physical test for promotion.

I will add these points in, and perhaps other points as I think of them, when I have time to do a proper job of it (assuming someone else doesn't get around to it first). Janggeom 13:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I take your point on the Japanese-centric bit, my main art, which does belts, is jujutsu so it probably is a bit biased that way however the broader things on using belt rankings in arts other than judo may not belong in this article, short of saying other arts now us them too, as the article is call "Black belt" not "Ranking systems". Image would be good can't do right now, but long term I'll see if I can get an image of a couple of friends who have kanji on their belts.

On the other Dan ranks question I left this out feeling that more than a nod in the at direction was likely to takeover the article, creating an article on Ranking systems might be a good idea to put that kind of thing in rather than having it in an article on a specific part of ranking systems. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 15:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Promotion to B-class is premature

I think the promotion to B-class is premature based primarily on the number and relevance of the references (one is a line from a movie). Toss in a few more references - a pici of someone wearing a black belt and you might have a B-class. I wont demote right away but I think it should be.Peter Rehse 21:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually it's from the book the movie was based on :) but I take your point. However as an example of a popular view of black belts it's fair as I doubt you will find any freely available surveys asking 'What do you think a black belt means' a couple more lines about black belts in a similar vein would be adequate collaboration in my view . It does need more sources (one of the reasons I didn't promote myself) but I think that a lack or sources without controversial info is not prohibitive of b-class. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 09:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Initially, I had the same thought as you (PRehse), but then I went back and actually read through the B-class criteria so as not to simply go on a personal feeling of whether the article was to that standard or not. It's clear that the B-class specification recognises that there are still significant shortcomings in an article holding that status. In looking at the article again, one thing I neglected to do when I decided to promote this article was refer to the sample B-class article and existing B-class articles. Having now done this, I concur that this article does not meet the B-class standard, as reflected by a combination of the formal specification and the standard of existing B-class articles. Janggeom 13:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

So lets toss in a picture. One possibility is the one found in kata which by the way is also B class without references.Peter Rehse 12:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Globalise tag

Was this fixed or dose more need doing? the complaint was it was Japaneses centric (which some parts will be as the idea originated there) but have the modern bits been changed enough? --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 09:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Re-read; it is focused on Japaneses arts to some level so addition of alternative terminology for say TKD and some non Japaneses arts would be useful. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 09:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Further rewrite needed

Nowadays people can buy black belts from organizations and even children can earn "adult" black belts. These facts are not reflected in this entry. THere needs to be greater emphasis on the idea that a black belt is just a regular belt and that in most styles only the higher degress (or "dans") of black belts are considered qualified as master instructors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.241.48.153 (talk) 19:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Not quite sure what your getting at, 1st/shodan is normally the 1st blackbelt rank, and while buying belts happens that is covered in other articles. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 10:39, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This article focuses mainly on karate

I know that in some martial arts it take much longer than 3 years to get a black belt. I don't mean to go singling out any particular martial arts, but for example, where I live taekwondo is much easier to get a black belt in than say kung fu. I believe that the analogy that getting a black belt is like getting a bachelors degree is a terrible one, because not all martial art schools are standardized with one another. Some martial art schools are just a joke and give black belts to kids where as others are more serious. --Special:Contributions (talk) 03:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)special contribution

I have to say I can't see any focus on karate in particular, judo dose get a big mention as that's where it started. As to the bachelors degree, I still like it as a some degree's are easer to get than others and it also largely reflects the discipline being trained in, it's a lot easer to get BB if their is not much to the art so the relative level is the same. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 10:39, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Having trained in both ITF Tae Kwon Do and GojuRyu Karate-do in Canada, I could offer some thoughts on this article. Although more citations are needed, I'm not sure where you would cite this. For example, the statement, "a student arriving with a bloodied or dirty uniform might not be allowed to train," was extremely true for where I practised Tae Kwon Do. A dirtied or sullied uniform was a sign of disrespect, so you were not allowed to train unless your dobok was clean, your belt was tied properly, etc.

I could offer a bit of insight regarding TKD as is practised in Canada. Much of what I read in the article was true for where I trained. I know some people who trained in TKD for 5 years, some 10, before they got their black belt. This website has a bit of information on ITF TKD. Master Trân Triêu Quân, ITF President made a statement that might assist with this article:

"Earning a black belt means the student has acquired a certain expertise. The color black is the combination of all the other colors and signifies the achievement of maturity. There is a certain prestige attached to wearing the black belt, but we must point out that there are different degrees of black belts and the difference from one level to the next level up is substantial.

Some years ago, I was with General Choi at a seminar when he was asked about the meaning of the black belt. General Choi said it meant that person was capable of defending himself. I would add that the holder of a black belt has reached a certain level of skills and is now autonomous for his training."

Further:

"There is a requirement for a minimum number of hours of training. However, there is no set timeframe for earning an ITF color or black belt. If a student progresses very well, he or she could earn a 1st degree black belt in approximately three years. To move from 1st degree black belt to 2nd degree takes a minimum of one and a half years, while the next step, from 2nd to 3rd, takes a minimum of two years. The time required increases at each level. In fact, to earn a 9th degree black belt takes a minimum total of 36 years."

I'll try to incorporate some of that into the article where it is appropriate.

In any case, I'd like to offer some of my assistance to fixing up this article. Perhaps the article should be split up according to style? For example, have one section on black belts in Karate, Judo, TKD, Kung Fu, and then lesser-known styles that are still relevant.

Yaminator (talk) 16:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I can see pro's an con's to splitting the main con being which arts and sub-styles to include, TKD a whole, ITF vs WTF, all ATA, ITF, WTF, TAGB, ATF ... etc as many have different standards. I think this fits better into secitons of those articles; Dan (rank) has been divided like that to some extent and I'm not sure it works well. Emphasising that the differences between dan grades are greater than kyu grades (Japanese terminology but you know what I mean) makes sense to me. The symbolism is style spesific, as coloured belts came later on, but mentioning that such symbolism, while not universal, is soften attached to it woudl be a good addtion. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 15:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, I see what you mean. Yes, dividing it up by... hmm, origin I suppose that would be? In any case, having the black belt article mirror the dan article would probably be a good idea, mostly to add some continuity between the two. I do like your suggestion more than what I had in mind, though. If we can find some sources from the federations and associations noted, we could probably compile a list of sorts that deal with the various organizations at the least? And then have something of a summarization for the entire style- noting the major differences between each organization and similarities. And putting an emphasis on the difference between dan and kyu sounds good, but it might only be relative in the introduction, or more likely the 'Relative rank' section, as it mentions how a dan rank is more rigorous than a kyu rank. Although I do wonder if the part about the West handing out blackbelts more readily should be relocated to the Misconceptions part...

In any case, your plan sounds good. If we compile some sources from a lot of organizations for the various styles and sort them based on country of the martial arts origins, that would help a lot. :] Yaminator (talk) 23:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

As a black belt in Shotokan I can't provide any insight beyond what a black belt means in Karate. At Shodan (1st Degree) I would not consider myself a master. I can do the moves and I can spar quite well, but there is far more room to grow beyond this level. What most people would think of when they hear "black belt" is probably what a 5th Dan would be in my style.

What I would like to see added to this article is something regarding the "aging" of a black belt. This may be unique to my style, but once we get our black belt we keep the same belt for the rest of our lives, unless it is lost or has to be replaced for some special reason. We do not wash our belts, as the years go on we may replace our Gi's once a year or so but that same belt is always put back on. As time goes on it begins to fray, lose its black coloring and shift more to a grey or white. When you go to seminars or camps the way you spot a higher rank is by their belt, they're usually quite tattered and may be almost entirely white again. Quite often people try and age their belt by scraping it with keys or other methods to give the illusion that they are of a higher rank. I would add this myself but I'm not sure if its typically of all (or at least, most) styles of martial arts, or if it is unique to the style I study.

Another thing I wanted to point out is the picture that is currently up shows a black belt holding a bo staff and says he is a karateka. Karate losely translated means "without weapons" so in my opinion either a different picture should be used, or the term karate removed from its caption. --Psilokan (talk) 23:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)